Kate Kelly Verdict Is In...

[cinepro]

Guilty.

 

I find the outcome to be pretty much what I expected, and I find myself oddly admiring that this decision was reached with all the scrutiny and hand wringing that was going on.  I think this shows that "PR" isn't the tail wagging the dog, and right or wrong, the Church will stand by its doctrine and principles, even when backed up against the wall of public opinion.

Edited June 23, 2014 by cinepro

[smac97]

See here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/us/Kate-Kelly-Mormon-Church-Excommunicates-Ordain-Women-Founder.html?_r=0

From the article:
 

Kate Kelly, who unsettled the Mormon Church by founding a movement to advocate opening the male-only priesthood to women, was excommunicated by her bishop and his two counselors in Virginia on Monday.
...
Bishop Mark Harrison informed Ms. Kelly by email that she had been excommunicated “for conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church,” according to a partial text of the decision shared by an Ordain Women spokeswoman.

The bishop said in the email that Ms. Kelly may not take the sacrament, hold a voluntary position or give a talk in the church, vote for church offices, contribute tithes or wear the sacred Mormon undergarments.

To be considered for readmission to the church, “You will need to demonstrate over a period of time that you have stopped teachings and actions that undermine the Church, its leaders, and the doctrine of the priesthood,” the email to Ms. Kelly said. “You must stop trying to gain a following for yourself or your cause and taking actions that could lead others away from the Church.”
...
Chelsea Shields Strayer, a member of the executive board of Ordain Women, said, “You can get rid of Kate, but something else is going to crop up.”

Thanks,

-Smac

UPDATE TO ADD: Here are excerpts from the OW website's response to this development:

 

Kelly says, “The decision to force me outside my congregation and community is exceptionally painful. Today is a tragic day for my family and me as we process the many ways this will impact us, both in this life and in the eternities. I love the gospel and the courage of its people. Don’t leave. Stay, and make things better.”

 

Debra Jenson of Ordain Women said, “We are deeply saddened by this news. As Mormons we recognize the gravity of this action. We follow the directive of Mosiah 18:9 and will mourn with our sister as she mourns. We regret that there is no way to predict how local leaders will react to conversations about gender inequality in the Church—-many have been supportive in these discussions, others have not. Ordain Women will continue.”

 

Your thread was merged with this one because it beat you by 2 seconds.

[Buzzard]

Guilty.

Might I humbly submit that we are all guilty, Brother Cinepro. It was a disciplinary hearing, not a court, so secular terms like "guilty" and "innocent" may not be 100% applicable. 

[eddie]

Can't say I am glad, but can say I am not surprised. Her actions seemed to merit apostasy and teaching and recruiting people to these causes are not congruent with the church's doctrines.

[bluebell]

I am not surprised either, though I am not glad and truly feel for her.

I just don't think she left them much choice.

[cinepro]

Might I humbly submit that we are all guilty, Brother Cinepro. It was a disciplinary hearing, not a court, so secular terms like "guilty" and "innocent" may not be 100% applicable.

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say.  She was accused of apostasy, and the result was excommunication.  Can you think of a better word to convey that someone has been found to have committed the transgression for which they are accused?

 

I would also point out that the Church itself has been entirely comfortable with calling these things "courts", so it seems to be more a matter of style than principle.

Edit to add: I would also point out that we are not "all guilty" of the charge of apostasy. Hopefully.

Edited June 24, 2014 by cinepro

[smac97]

See here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/us/Kate-Kelly-Mormon-Church-Excommunicates-Ordain-Women-Founder.html?_r=0

From the article:

 

Kate Kelly, who unsettled the Mormon Church by founding a movement to advocate opening the male-only priesthood to women, was excommunicated by her bishop and his two counselors in Virginia on Monday.

...

Bishop Mark Harrison informed Ms. Kelly by email that she had been excommunicated “for conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church,” according to a partial text of the decision shared by an Ordain Women spokeswoman.

The bishop said in the email that Ms. Kelly may not take the sacrament, hold a voluntary position or give a talk in the church, vote for church offices, contribute tithes or wear the sacred Mormon undergarments.

To be considered for readmission to the church, “You will need to demonstrate over a period of time that you have stopped teachings and actions that undermine the Church, its leaders, and the doctrine of the priesthood,” the email to Ms. Kelly said. “You must stop trying to gain a following for yourself or your cause and taking actions that could lead others away from the Church.”

...

Chelsea Shields Strayer, a member of the executive board of Ordain Women, said, “You can get rid of Kate, but something else is going to crop up.”

Thanks,

-Smac

UPDATE TO ADD: Here are excerpts from the OW website's response to this development:

 

Kelly says, “The decision to force me outside my congregation and community is exceptionally painful. Today is a tragic day for my family and me as we process the many ways this will impact us, both in this life and in the eternities. I love the gospel and the courage of its people. Don’t leave. Stay, and make things better.”

Debra Jenson of Ordain Women said, “We are deeply saddened by this news. As Mormons we recognize the gravity of this action. We follow the directive of Mosiah 18:9 and will mourn with our sister as she mourns. We regret that there is no way to predict how local leaders will react to conversations about gender inequality in the Church—-many have been supportive in these discussions, others have not. Ordain Women will continue.”

[why me]

I  don't think that the church had a choice but to excommunicate her. If they did not discipline her, her organization would have gotten legitimacy. And the church could not allow that to happen. I don't think that this will be the end of it but it does take the sail out of OW for awhile. The internet will be a buzz with this ruling for quite some time. However, it is sad that an active member of the church would have chosen the tactics that she chose to make her organization's points.

 

However, there is a side issue here: john dehlin. He is also facing court, I believe. If john is not treated in the same fashion, there will be heck to pay from the ladies. It would send a message that women must keep silent but the men can say what they want and still be a member. Lets see what happens.

Edited June 23, 2014 by why me

[Calm]

" "In order to be considered for readmission to the church, you will need to demonstrate over a period of time that you have stopped teachings and actions that undermine the church, its leaders, and the doctrine of the priesthood. You must be truthful in your communications with others regarding matters that involve your priesthood leaders, including the administration of church discipline, and you must stop trying to gain a following for yourself or your cause and taking actions that could lead others away from the church.""

Given the specifics of the instructions, it just seems so unreasonable that anyone is comfortable with saying this is 'just about questioning'.

There isn't even direction that she needs to change her beliefs about ordaining women.

Edited June 23, 2014 by calmoriah

[Teancum]

You know it really bothers me that his bishop did this all by email.  He could have at least called and discussed the decision with her.  Bad form in my opinion.

 

You think I am harsh on this?  I was a bishop.  I may be disillusioned about the Church these days but I was as much as a beleiver as anyone here when I was a bishop.   I did DCs.   I never, ever would have used email for anything like this that was so very very personal.  A formal letter, not email would follow.  But not email.  Really Bishop Harrison? Why did you not commune in real time at least?

 

This part of it just bothers me immensely.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Teancum

[juliann]

This is a very, very, very sad day. 

[Duncan]

You know it really bothers me that his bishop did this all by email.  He could have at least called and discussed the decision with her.  Bad form in my opinion.

 

You think I am harsh on this?  I was a bishop.  I may be disillusioned about the Church these days but I was as much as a beleiver as anyone here when I was a bishop.   I did DCs.   I never, ever would have used email for anything like this that was so very very personal.

 

This part of it just bothers me immensely.

 

 

I was thinking that too but then again maybe there are other things in play like she in supposedly taking care of a sick relative in Utah whilst holding vigils and stuff and giving media blurbs and goo

[CA Steve]

I was thinking that too but then again maybe there are other things in play like she in supposedly taking care of a sick relative in Utah whilst holding vigils and stuff and giving media blurbs and goo

Yeah because it is sooo hard to get a hold of people nowadays. Its not like everyone just carries a phone around with them.

[Duncan]

Yeah because it is sooo hard to get a hold of people nowadays. Its not like everyone just carries a phone around with them.

 

I don't have a mobile, some people are luddites! is it better to call in person and relay all that information or worse to call in person, I don't know but ah, whatever it's all over now!

[eddie]

You know it really bothers me that his bishop did this all by email. He could have at least called and discussed the decision with her. Bad form in my opinion.

You think I am harsh on this? I was a bishop. I may be disillusioned about the Church these days but I was as much as a beleiver as anyone here when I was a bishop. I did DCs. I never, ever would have used email for anything like this that was so very very personal. A formal letter, not email would follow. But not email. Really Bishop Harrison? Why did you not commune in real time at least?

This part of it just bothers me immensely.

Maybe for the same reason KK simply chose to submit letters and paperwork rather than even have a skype or conference call, much less an in person visit for something she claims defines her.

She obviously did not want much communication with him, so he may have felt that was the best.

[mnn727]

Does not surprise me in the least from everything I read it was inevitable.

 

Disagree with the Church all you want, write letters or talk to the Church leaders abut your disagreement. but don't try to lead others astray 

[Duncan]

Maybe for the same reason KK simply chose to submit letters and paperwork rather than even have a skype or conference call, much less an in person visit for something she claims defines her.

She obviously did not want much communication with him, so he may have felt that was the best.

 

in lawyer lingo, she created a paper trail!

[Teancum]

I was thinking that too but then again maybe there are other things in play like she in supposedly taking care of a sick relative in Utah whilst holding vigils and stuff and giving media blurbs and goo

 

 

Well anyone can disagree but I think a personal discussion of the results was in order.  This was a big deal. Any DC is a big deal for a member.

[Scott Lloyd]

You know it really bothers me that his bishop did this all by email.  He could have at least called and discussed the decision with her.  Bad form in my opinion.

 

You think I am harsh on this?  I was a bishop.  I may be disillusioned about the Church these days but I was as much as a beleiver as anyone here when I was a bishop.   I did DCs.   I never, ever would have used email for anything like this that was so very very personal.  A formal letter, not email would follow.  But not email.  Really Bishop Harrison? Why did you not commune in real time at least?

 

This part of it just bothers me immensely.

For something so "very, very personal," she didn't waste any time in going public with it. Nor has she seemed very disposed throughout this episode to keeping the proceedings confidential.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

" "In order to be considered for readmission to the church, you will need to demonstrate over a period of time that you have stopped teachings and actions that undermine the church, its leaders, and the doctrine of the priesthood. You must be truthful in your communications with others regarding matters that involve your priesthood leaders, including the administration of church discipline, and you must stop trying to gain a following for yourself or your cause and taking actions that could lead others away from the church.""

Given the specifics of the instructions, it just seems so unreasonable that anyone is comfortable with saying this is 'just about questioning'.

There isn't even direction that she needs to change her beliefs about ordaining women.

I think it's clear, members should not publically oppose the Church's policy, practice and doctrine. Being one who holds opposing views regarding policy, practice and doctrine, in some cases, this is a tough pill to swallow, in a sense. But it's good to see defined lines.

[Duncan]

Well anyone can disagree but I think a personal discussion of the results was in order.  This was a big deal. Any DC is a big deal for a member.

 

 

maybe they'll talk with her later, who knows

[stemelbow]

You know it really bothers me that his bishop did this all by email.  He could have at least called and discussed the decision with her.  Bad form in my opinion.

 

You think I am harsh on this?  I was a bishop.  I may be disillusioned about the Church these days but I was as much as a beleiver as anyone here when I was a bishop.   I did DCs.   I never, ever would have used email for anything like this that was so very very personal.  A formal letter, not email would follow.  But not email.  Really Bishop Harrison? Why did you not commune in real time at least?

 

This part of it just bothers me immensely.

Maybe a little too hasty. Not sure what is in this bishop's heart. Since we're getting all the news I wonder if we'll get the whole email?

[bluebell]

" "In order to be considered for readmission to the church, you will need to demonstrate over a period of time that you have stopped teachings and actions that undermine the church, its leaders, and the doctrine of the priesthood. You must be truthful in your communications with others regarding matters that involve your priesthood leaders, including the administration of church discipline, and you must stop trying to gain a following for yourself or your cause and taking actions that could lead others away from the church.""

Given the specifics of the instructions, it just seems so unreasonable that anyone is comfortable with saying this is 'just about questioning'.

There isn't even direction that she needs to change her beliefs about ordaining women.

 

This part is very interesting, because it sounds like her bishop is saying that she has not been honest in relaying the particulars concerning the DC, or her leaders.  

[Buzzard]

This part is very interesting, because it sounds like her bishop is saying that she has not been honest in relaying the particulars concerning the DC, or her leaders.  

Yeah, that caught my eye as well. Might be two people interpreting the same words differently, but sure seems like the bishop was sending her a message. 

[ksfisher]

I think it's clear, members should not publically oppose the Church's policy, practice and doctrine. Being one who holds opposing views regarding policy, practice and doctrine, in some cases, this is a tough pill to swallow, in a sense. But it's good to see defined lines.

 

I don't think that it was her public opposition to church doctrine.  From reading the above it seems clear that it was the building of an organization to support her opinions and inviting others to join her in  oppostion.