Consider The Lilies

[Coreyb]

     One of the most moving of the principles taught by Jesus was his charge to his Apostles to preach the gospel throughout the land "without purse or script", looking to the flowers and birds along their path and putting their faith in the God of nature to provide their own sustenance. Was this a one time test of faith, or a principle God intends us to muster the faith to practice? I understand that in the early part of the Restoration movement, the Apostles and other Elders did practice this style of preaching, but at some point it was done away with. I believe Ogden Kraut claims to be the last missionary to have gone without purse or script, but who knows? Was there ever a directive to stop sending out missionaries without purse or script? To what extent do the Apostles today travel/preach without purse or script? I know that to our modern sensibilities, going out into the world to preach penniless seems uncomfortable, strange, and even ludicrous (something that crazed street preacher downtown who is also a rabid alcoholic might do ), but is it right to end a practice prescribed by Christ, even in our own dispensation (see D&C 24, 84) just because it is weird and "not the way the world works anymore"? Your thoughts please...

 

 

PS.  I understand how different the world is now and how missionary work is changing, but I ask the question nonetheless  

[Kenngo1969]

Not to nitpick, but the expression is, "Without purse or scrip," (no "t").  Of course, with the advent of Preach My Gospel, missionaries are no longer using set scripts, either (which is much better, in my opinion!)

 

P.S.: As to your query, going without purse or scrip would be infinitely easier in some parts of the world than in others (and sadly, those parts are becoming rarer and rarer).  For example, it would be fairly easy, I would think, to go without purse or scrip here in The Shadow of The Everlasting Hills, where one could not swing a dead ALF without hitting a member of the Church of Jesus Christ who is apt to take any pity necessary on a starving, thirsty, or homeless Mormon missionary.  That's not true in most parts of the world, however.  While this stance may betray an unwarranted lack of confidence in my fellow men, I don't see any reason why missionaries are required to run the risk of not having basic needs met (more out of spite than anything else) by uncharitable (not to mention potentially vindictive and vengeful) people, simply as a test of faith.  Christ also enjoined His Apostles, not only to be "as harmless as doves," but also to be "as wise as serpents."  

Edited May 12, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Tiki]

12th Article of Faith.

It has to do with obeying laws against vagrancy.

[ksfisher]

is it right to end a practice prescribed by Christ, even in our own dispensation (see D&C 24, 84) just because it is weird and "not the way the world works anymore"? Your thoughts please...

PS. I understand how different the world is now and how missionary work is changing, but I ask the question nonetheless

If we believe that the Savior leads the church through prophets today then it would be right to make changes as conditions change.

In studying the matter futhet some questions could be asked.

What was the context of the original commandment? Did it apply to the apostles on just that missionary journey? Or was it directed at all missionaries forever after? How does Luke 22:35-36 fit into the picture?

35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

(Luke 22:35-36)

What was the context of the commandment in the latter days? Why did it become necessary to make a change?

Edited May 13, 2014 by ksfisher

[Palerider]

You might consider Luke 22: 36

 

Edit:

 

Whoops! I see ksfisher beat me to it.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Palerider

[Duncan]

I know Elder S. Dilworth Young (former member of the First Council of the 70) was Mission President in the New England Mission in the late 1940's and for a time he had the missionaries go without purse or scrip. I don't know if he had all of them do that or the ones in the country but I don't think the ones who did it would ever forget that experience! Just as aside I don't see the Great Commission as saying that anyone ever who wants to be a missionary as somehow taking that to be divinely called, Christ has trained and taught the Twelve for 3 years to go on a mission and preach Christ and him crucified. I think conditions then were more conducive to going without purse or scrip. Today is different.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Duncan

[MiserereNobis]

One reason why I love St. Francis so... he decided to try the poverty of the Gospels and look what happened!

[Tiki]

One reason why I love St. Francis so... he decided to try the poverty of the Gospels and look what happened!

Yes, St. Francis did a lot of good.

[Yirgacheffe]

     One of the most moving of the principles taught by Jesus was his charge to his Apostles to preach the gospel throughout the land "without purse or script", looking to the flowers and birds along their path and putting their faith in the God of nature to provide their own sustenance. Was this a one time test of faith, or a principle God intends us to muster the faith to practice? I understand that in the early part of the Restoration movement, the Apostles and other Elders did practice this style of preaching, but at some point it was done away with. I believe Ogden Kraut claims to be the last missionary to have gone without purse or script, but who knows? Was there ever a directive to stop sending out missionaries without purse or script? To what extent do the Apostles today travel/preach without purse or script? I know that to our modern sensibilities, going out into the world to preach penniless seems uncomfortable, strange, and even ludicrous (something that crazed street preacher downtown who is also a rabid alcoholic might do ), but is it right to end a practice prescribed by Christ, even in our own dispensation (see D&C 24, 84) just because it is weird and "not the way the world works anymore"? Your thoughts please...

 

 

PS.  I understand how different the world is now and how missionary work is changing, but I ask the question nonetheless

We just had one of the worst winters people can remember, would it have been better for missionaries in our city to spend their time looking for food and shelter from the deadly cold and heavy snow during the winter?

[BCSpace]

To what extent do the Apostles today travel/preach without purse or script?

 

 

Almost all of them I've met or seen in a conference have, in various meetings, called for anyone to ask any question.

[Sleeper Cell]

     One of the most moving of the principles taught by Jesus was his charge to his Apostles to preach the gospel throughout the land "without purse or script", looking to the flowers and birds along their path and putting their faith in the God of nature to provide their own sustenance. Was this a one time test of faith, or a principle God intends us to muster the faith to practice? I understand that in the early part of the Restoration movement, the Apostles and other Elders did practice this style of preaching, but at some point it was done away with. I believe Ogden Kraut claims to be the last missionary to have gone without purse or script, but who knows? Was there ever a directive to stop sending out missionaries without purse or script? To what extent do the Apostles today travel/preach without purse or script? I know that to our modern sensibilities, going out into the world to preach penniless seems uncomfortable, strange, and even ludicrous (something that crazed street preacher downtown who is also a rabid alcoholic might do ), but is it right to end a practice prescribed by Christ, even in our own dispensation (see D&C 24, 84) just because it is weird and "not the way the world works anymore"? Your thoughts please...

 

 

PS.  I understand how different the world is now and how missionary work is changing, but I ask the question nonetheless

 

I can see it now:  

 

“LD$ Church starves its teenagers in order to finance shopping malls and American war museums.”

[JLHPROF]

We just had one of the worst winters people can remember, would it have been better for missionaries in our city to spend their time looking for food and shelter from the deadly cold and heavy snow during the winter?

 

Would it have required more faith and closeness to God on their part to do so?  That was one of the reasons for the "without purse or scrip" command.  Sacrifice of all things in order to produce higher levels of faith.

[Coreyb]

 

I can see it now:  

 

“LD$ Church starves its teenagers in order to finance shopping malls and American war museums.”

 

as fun as that mall was to build (I helped build it), I hope that we don't build another one. I would prefer if we used our incredible resources on a less worldly project, but charitable investments aren't likely to turn a profit, whereas malls theoretically are. I think JLHPROF is right, sacrificing financial security forces a person to rely and put trust in someone/thing outside oneself. In our case it would require placing faith in God, that he will provide for His own work, and us, His own children. I think I could reasonably construe Jesus' saying; He that findeth his money shall lose it: and he that loseth his money for my sake shall find it. I know its an idealistic, radical and probably naive thought, but that's why I am discussing it here and not over the pulpit

[MiserereNobis]

 

I know its an idealistic, radical and probably naive thought, but that's why I am discussing it here and not over the pulpit

 

 

I think once Christianity stops being idealistic, radical, and naive, then it stops being Christianity

[Alan]

The instructions in the Sermon on the Mount appear not to be simply for apostles and missionaries. These instructions are for all of us (according to Nibley) and are repeated in the Book of Mormon and in the D&C. The Lord must really want us to get this!

That is why I really struggle with the concept of food storage. The birds don't sow, reap, or gather into barns but Heavenly Father still feeds them. Are you not greater than they? Apparently, if we don't follow the precepts of this sermon we are "of little faith". Perhaps the food storage instructions are for those of little faith amongst us.

[Duncan]

The instructions in the Sermon on the Mount appear not to be simply for apostles and missionaries. These instructions are for all of us (according to Nibley) and are repeated in the Book of Mormon and in the D&C. The Lord must really want us to get this!

That is why I really struggle with the concept of food storage. The birds don't sow, reap, or gather into barns but Heavenly Father still feeds them. Are you not greater than they? Apparently, if we don't follow the precepts of this sermon we are "of little faith". Perhaps the food storage instructions are for those of little faith amongst us.

 

 

there is the immediate context of these verses and then there is what they mean to me and both understandings are needed. For example Nephi killing Laban doesn't tell us today to steal records and kill anyone who gets in the way but it may tell us that God asks of us hard things to do without breaking any laws

Edited May 16, 2014 by Duncan

[Sleeper Cell]

The instructions in the Sermon on the Mount appear not to be simply for apostles and missionaries. These instructions are for all of us (according to Nibley) and are repeated in the Book of Mormon and in the D&C. The Lord must really want us to get this!

That is why I really struggle with the concept of food storage. The birds don't sow, reap, or gather into barns but Heavenly Father still feeds them. Are you not greater than they? Apparently, if we don't follow the precepts of this sermon we are "of little faith". Perhaps the food storage instructions are for those of little faith amongst us.

 

Do you seriously believe that, as a group, farmers have little faith?  Or that choosing not to work the minimum number of hours  necessary to earn  enough to feed yourself and your family is a Christian virtue?.

 

How do you square your interpretation of this scripture with the fact that people die of starvation every day?  Why doesn’t Heavenly Father feed them?

 

Suppose your community suffers a disaster (natural or man made) that causes a widespread food shortage.  You and your family run out of food.  Will you accept food offered to you by your less faithful, food storage neighbor, or will you wait for the Lord to provide?  Or will you argue that the Lord has provided for you by using this less faithful neighbor as his instrument?  

 

As you eat the food he gives you, will you congratulate yourself for being a more faithful Christian than your food storage neighbor who is feeding you?  

Edited May 16, 2014 by Sleeper Cell

[Calm]

 

Suppose your community suffers a disaster (natural or man made) that causes a widespread food shortage.  You and you family run out of food.  Will you accept food offered to you by your less faithful, food storage neighbor, or will you wait for the Lord to provide?  Or will you argue that the Lord has provided for you by using this less faithful neighbor as his instrument?  

 

As you eat the food he gives you, will you congratulate yourself for being a more faithful Christian than your food storage neighbor who is feeding you?

I always think of Joseph and the seven years of plenty then lean. He didn't just save himself or the Pharoah's court or even apparently just Egypt given Jacob sent his sons down to get food when it ran out.

Joseph got involved in food storage because of instruction from God, so it would appear at times God wants us to be prudent and live by faith in preparing for needs to come. Is there any reason to suppose that the current instruction given out by church leaders is much the same?

[thesometimesaint]

Lilies produce their own food and birds spend most of their time eating bugs and worms. YUM.

[why me]

     One of the most moving of the principles taught by Jesus was his charge to his Apostles to preach the gospel throughout the land "without purse or script", looking to the flowers and birds along their path and putting their faith in the God of nature to provide their own sustenance. Was this a one time test of faith, or a principle God intends us to muster the faith to practice? I understand that in the early part of the Restoration movement, the Apostles and other Elders did practice this style of preaching, but at some point it was done away with. I believe Ogden Kraut claims to be the last missionary to have gone without purse or script, but who knows? Was there ever a directive to stop sending out missionaries without purse or script? To what extent do the Apostles today travel/preach without purse or script? I know that to our modern sensibilities, going out into the world to preach penniless seems uncomfortable, strange, and even ludicrous (something that crazed street preacher downtown who is also a rabid alcoholic might do ), but is it right to end a practice prescribed by Christ, even in our own dispensation (see D&C 24, 84) just because it is weird and "not the way the world works anymore"? Your thoughts please...

 

 

PS.  I understand how different the world is now and how missionary work is changing, but I ask the question nonetheless

I think that we need to read between the lines. The apostles needed some sort of purse to survive. Also the world has moved on from the time of christ. And because the world has changed, certain changes need to take place to adjust to the changing circumstances. For example, although the missionaries of charity should be the poorest of the poor and the sisters do not have an annual income, the organization is quite rich and the sisters would be provided for if they were coming up short with food and bills. The world has changed now. Are apostles do quite well living the way that they do because they basically made it in the world . But someone needs to buy the plane tickets, the train tickets, the petrol bill etc. Going without purse or script may not cut it these days. 

[why me]

 

as fun as that mall was to build (I helped build it), I hope that we don't build another one. I would prefer if we used our incredible resources on a less worldly project, but charitable investments aren't likely to turn a profit, whereas malls theoretically are. 

 

Actually I hope that the church will build more malls. Why not? The mall in downtown salt lake provides many jobs for people who may not have a job if that mall was not built. It helps many college students pay off their loans and provides a added income to retirees and provides people with full time or part time work. What more could be asked for than putting money into something that provides work for people to keep them out of poverty? And how is that a world project? 

Edited May 16, 2014 by why me

[why me]

The instructions in the Sermon on the Mount appear not to be simply for apostles and missionaries. These instructions are for all of us (according to Nibley) and are repeated in the Book of Mormon and in the D&C. The Lord must really want us to get this!

That is why I really struggle with the concept of food storage. The birds don't sow, reap, or gather into barns but Heavenly Father still feeds them. Are you not greater than they? Apparently, if we don't follow the precepts of this sermon we are "of little faith". Perhaps the food storage instructions are for those of little faith amongst us.

And what about the squirrels? Or the ants? Or the many creatures that save for a rainy day? Maybe we are such creatures?

[WysteriaBlue]

There are many stories of Brigham Young and Woodruff and many others traveling without purse or scrip to Canada, England and many other places.  I found one account where money for traveling 'miraculously' appearing when needed.  One article I found enlightening was in:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-eighteen-the-mission-of-the-twelve?lang=eng

 

Hope that might be revelant...seeing how Joseph Smith follwed Jesus' example..

 

WB

[Alan]

 

Do you seriously believe that, as a group, farmers have little faith?  Or that choosing not to work the minimum number of hours  necessary to earn  enough to feed yourself and your family is a Christian virtue?.

 

How do you square your interpretation of this scripture with the fact that people die of starvation every day?  Why doesn’t Heavenly Father feed them?

 

Suppose your community suffers a disaster (natural or man made) that causes a widespread food shortage.  You and your family run out of food.  Will you accept food offered to you by your less faithful, food storage neighbor, or will you wait for the Lord to provide?  Or will you argue that the Lord has provided for you by using this less faithful neighbor as his instrument?  

 

As you eat the food he gives you, will you congratulate yourself for being a more faithful Christian than your food storage neighbor who is feeding you?  

 

 

We have been instructed, by the Lord himself, to pray and ask for our "daily bread", and to ask for it "this day". That doesn't suggest to me that we shouldn't work for it, indeed Adam was told that was exactly what he and his posterity now had to do.

My point is that we are being instructed here not to worry about the future. Tomorrow will take care of the things of itself. You've got enough to worry about today. We are being told that we must trust in the Lord to provide our daily bread, our clothing etc. In fact, all of our needs. As Nibley once pointed out, the essence is "work we must, but the lunch is free".

 

So I don't feel right about amassing a food store, and never have. To me it's contrary to Christ's instructions to not worry about our needs and to pray for daily bread.

 

So why do our leaders suggest we have a food store? In my view the clue is right there in the sermon; it's because we have little faith and will possibly starve if we don't store some provisions. I'm sure neither the Lord nor the church leaders want anyone to starve so this is the fall-back approach. I kind of think of it like the law of consecration and tithing. We didn't have enough faith to live the law of consecration so instead of cutting us off the Lord gave us a lesser law for the time being.

 

As for your question regarding those who die of starvation everyday, I would make a couple of observations.

1. Perhaps they don't have faith.

2. Perhaps you (and the rest of us in the western world) ate (or threw away) the food that would have kept them alive. The D&C tells us there is "enough and to spare".

3. Corrupt governments.

4. Evil and conspiring men (D&C89). Have you ever thought about the amount of land, often in third world countries, that is used to feed our addictions to tea, coffee, chocolate, tobacco and alcohol, instead of growing food for the local population? This is where the Word of Wisdom becomes an ethical as well as a health law.

5. Referring back to the Sermon on the Mount, when was the last time you saw a bird starve? Have you noticed that they tend not to? They die of disease or predation, they don't starve. Just something I've noticed.

[ksfisher]

 

5. Referring back to the Sermon on the Mount, when was the last time you saw a bird starve? Have you noticed that they tend not to? They die of disease or predation, they don't starve. Just something I've noticed.

 

Birds do starve:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/biologists-worried-by-migratory-birds-starvation-seen-as-tied-to-climate-change/2013/06/19/c04d8a74-d90d-11e2-a9f2-42ee3912ae0e_story.html

 

http://www.falklands.net/PenguinsStarve.shtml

 

http://sciencenordic.com/puffin-chicks-die-hunger

 

I could keep going on.  Just because you don't notice it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.