Missionary finding his lost brother & avoiding dogs

[CV75]

31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The story like this is the faith promoting narrative with the miraculous ending.  

The community i was thinking in broad terms for anyone that considers themselves involved in Mormonism, a big tent approach.  

Is that "big tent" as in "circus"? I think a story like this would get lost in bigger and better stories that promote faith with a miraculous ending, not to mention the big story: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (J. Smith).

I think each version that's been told would need to be taken in the context of the teller, the setting and the audience -- all the examples provided seem relatively small, even exclusive, compared to what "anyone that considers themselves involved in Mormonism" might relate to with regards to being influenced by the teller and the setting.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

You need be sensitive. If you teach YW and one YW's parents divorced 2 days ago then it may not be the right time for a lesson about eternal marriage. Timing is a big thing. If your friend's son on Message Board A died from an overdose you may want to post about how your son was saved on Message Board B instead or only. Place is a big thing. But at some point we really need to be ok with sharing good stories and miracles. At some point we have to be ok with letting the pain go. 

Thank you for sharing this story, so important and valuable for this discussion, it really makes things real and shows how we all have different needs at different times.  Wonderful

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with not believing every faith promoting story that we hear.  I think the real issue is not becoming a person who can't/won't believe in miracles.  That's what I see as being at stake.  

As long as we can remain a person of faith, and continue to believe in a God of miracles, then whether or not we believe every faith promoting story presented to us is irrelevant.

Thanks bluebell.  My concern with this, is that I think my experience is different.  I don't believe in miracles in the same way many others do.  I don't believe in supernatural interventions by a deity.  I do believe there are things that we can't explain, but I consider them natural just without a current explanation for why.  But that doesn't mean I don't believe in miracles in the way I define them.  

I think some people want to put being "a person of faith" into a box that requires certain types of belief about a theistic God, but for others like myself who've lost a belief in that kind of a God, but who still want to be a part of a faith community, I define things differently now, but my experience I think is still valid and I would like it honored in the same way that I can honor the experiences of those that do believe in supernatural phenomena. Does that make sense? 

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Is that "big tent" as in "circus"? I think a story like this would get lost in bigger and better stories that promote faith with a miraculous ending, not to mention the big story: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (J. Smith).

I think each version that's been told would need to be taken in the context of the teller, the setting and the audience -- all the examples provided seem relatively small, even exclusive, compared to what "anyone that considers themselves involved in Mormonism" might relate to with regards to being influenced by the teller and the setting.

Ha, I think a circus is an appropriate metaphor, nice!  

And I agree with you that context, setting, audience will all be influencing factors on how the story is interpreted and told.  My call would be for a telling of story that does the most good and the least harm at the same time.  I'm optimistic and I think we can do a better job of accomplishing the most good for the most people.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't believe in supernatural interventions by a deity ...  But that doesn't mean I don't believe in miracles in the way I define them.  

... my experience I think is still valid and I would like it honored in the same way that I can honor the experiences of those that do believe in supernatural phenomena. Does that make sense? 

if 'honouring' your experience requires my not sharing the 'supernatural interventions' that form a central part of my Latter-day Saint inheritance, I'm not sure that I can go there. I'm happy for you not to believe, if that's what you prefer, and -- again, if you prefer -- I'm happy for you not to enjoy the daily reality of a living God. But are you genuinely suggesting that the rest of us should stop talking about things that are the privilege of every willing Church member just because you've established a position for yourself outside of what is the standard experience for most active LDS?

Edited July 11, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[T-Shirt]

I have never understood the concept of rejecting or even worse, being cynical of faith promoting stories simply because of one or two people who are known to have embellished the truth.  I don't get it.  I can't imagine living like that.  It would be like never eating another cookie because one chef mixed liver in the dough, or never trusting a doctor because you are aware of a quack doctor.

The best remedy is to forgive those who have lied and move forward in faith, seeking to have your own faith promoting experiences.  I strongly believe that those who discount other's faithful experiences will rarely or ever have any of their own, which only perpetuates their disbelief.  I am a living example of one who has learned to forgive and move forward, choosing to act in faith, trusting others and avoiding cynicism.  In so doing, not only have I experienced many of my own faith promoting experiences, but I have had my eyes opened to where I have been able to look back in my life and recognize many, many miracles over the years that I had not recognized before.  It is quite a remarkable thing.  It has brought light into my life and helped me find joy even during very trying times.  Disbelieving and cynicism brings the opposite, darkness, confusion and even more doubt. 

It's a pattern you can't learn until you try.

[T-Shirt]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't think you'll effectively connect to those people unless you are truly honoring their pain.

 Why would you ever want to honor someone's pain?  Showing compassion and loving someone does not require honoring pain.  You can validate that a person feels pain and recognize their feelings are real and work to help them overcome, without agreeing with why they are feeling pain.  You can be understanding of why the feel the way they do without agreeing with it.

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By trying to avoid "condoning their taking offense at something" you're essentially dismissing their perspective as being valid and I don't think this is an effective way of ministering to people.  

There is a big difference between validating that a person feels pain and condoning and encouraging why they feel pain.  Helping them deal effectively with the why, will eventually diminish, if not eliminate, the feeling itself.  Forgiveness will heal the pain, every time.  Assisting someone to continue in their pain by condoning their choice to be offended, especially if none was ever intended, will only perpetuate their pain and will open them up to similar painful experiences over and over again.

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Their hurt is valid, there is nothing wrong about them being hurt or offended, I honor those who have been hurt and take offense to insensitive story telling, and I would instead show love and understanding and acceptance and mourn with them

There is no virtue in encouraging someone to remain hurt and bitter.  It is destructive behavior.  Happiness comes when we forgive and rejoice in other people's blessings.  And, why do you consider the telling of faith promoting stories, "insensitive"?

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, rather than try to preach to them about how they have been blessed. 

I have said nothing of preaching.  I have spoken of loving, having compassion, helping and teaching.  All are good things.  Doing so with sensitivity and true compassion will go a long way in helping people overcome their painful experiences and, most importantly, help them to never have to experience such feelings again.

Edited July 11, 2017 by T-Shirt

[hope_for_things]

40 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

if 'honouring' your experience requires my not sharing the 'supernatural interventions' that form a central part of my Latter-day Saint inheritance, I'm not sure that I can go there. I'm happy for you not to believe, if that's what you prefer, and -- again, if you prefer -- I'm happy for you not to enjoy the daily reality of a living God. But are you genuinely suggesting that the rest of us should stop talking about things that are the privilege of every willing Church member just because you've established a position for yourself outside of what is the standard experience for most active LDS?

I would never ask people not to share their experiences, my hope with this post is that we all be more thoughtful about what is shared and how it's shared realizing multiple valid and different approaches.  

Also, who's to say I don't experience God daily, I never said that.  Unfortunately I also hear a tone in your response that comes across as belittling, just to clarify is that your intention, or did I read you wrong?  

[hope_for_things]

45 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

I have never understood the concept of rejecting or even worse, being cynical of faith promoting stories simply because of one or two people who are known to have embellished the truth.  I don't get it.  I can't imagine living like that.  It would be like never eating another cookie because one chef mixed liver in the dough, or never trusting a doctor because you are aware of a quack doctor.

The best remedy is to forgive those who have lied and move forward in faith, seeking to have your own faith promoting experiences.  I strongly believe that those who discount other's faithful experiences will rarely or ever have any of their own, which only perpetuates their disbelief.  I am a living example of one who has learned to forgive and move forward, choosing to act in faith, trusting others and avoiding cynicism.  In so doing, not only have I experienced many of my own faith promoting experiences, but I have had my eyes opened to where I have been able to look back in my life and recognize many, many miracles over the years that I had not recognized before.  It is quite a remarkable thing.  It has brought light into my life and helped me find joy even during very trying times.  Disbelieving and cynicism brings the opposite, darkness, confusion and even more doubt. 

It's a pattern you can't learn until you try.

It's evident you don't understand my perspective and think it's unfaithful or less than ideal.  That's not how I experience things.  

[hope_for_things]

19 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

 Why would you ever want to honor someone's pain?  Showing compassion and loving someone does not require honoring pain.  You can validate that a person feels pain and recognize their feelings are real and work to help them overcome, without agreeing with why they are feeling pain.  You can be understanding of why the feel the way they do without agreeing with it.

There is a big difference between validating that a person feels pain and condoning and encouraging why they feel pain.  Helping them deal effectively with the why, will eventually diminish, if not eliminate, the feeling.  Forgiveness will heal the pain, every time.  Assisting someone to continue in their pain by condoning their choice to be offended, especially if none was ever intended, will only perpetuate their pain and will open them up to similar painful experiences over and over again.

There is no virtue in encouraging someone to remain hurt and bitter.  It is destructive behavior.  Happiness comes when we forgive and rejoice in other people's blessings.  And, why do you consider the telling of faith promoting stories, "insensitive"?

I have said nothing of preaching.  I have spoken of loving, having compassion, helping and teaching.  All are good things.  Doing so with sensitivity and true compassion will go a long way in helping people overcome their painful experiences and, most importantly, help them to never have to experience such feelings again.

I think it's apparent we have a different perspective on how to help people, perhaps your way has worked well for you and I can accept that, but my experience tells me that people respond better by other means.  At the same I realize that one size doesn't fit all.  

[T-Shirt]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think it's apparent we have a different perspective on how to help people, perhaps your way has worked well for you and I can accept that, but my experience tells me that people respond better by other means.  At the same I realize that one size doesn't fit all.  

Actually, learning to forgive and find joy in other people's happiness does fit all.  It is universal and works every time.

[Hamba Tuhan]

26 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I would never ask people not to share their experiences, my hope with this post is that we all be more thoughtful about what is shared and how it's shared realizing multiple valid and different approaches.   

I get it. You need other Saints to validate your private version of deity. It sounds lovely, but isn't that a bit like showing up at an epidemiology conference and insisting that other researchers validate your conviction that much disease is really just an interruption in one's ch'i or life force? 

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Unfortunately I also hear a tone in your response that comes across as belittling, just to clarify is that your intention, or did I read you wrong?

Would it necessarily be an intentional act of 'belittling' if the epidemiologists at the conference were confused by the ch'i guy?

Edited July 11, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I get it. You need other Saints to validate your private version of deity. It sounds lovely, but isn't that a bit like showing up at an epidemiology conference and insisting that other researchers validate your conviction that much disease is really just an interruption in one's ch'i or life force? 

Would it necessarily be an intentional act of 'belittling' if the epidemiologists at the conference were confused by the ch'i guy?

Tribalsm isn't the gospel message I find inspiring.  Didn't Jesus say to love your enemies?  We can learn a lot from one another if we choose to, but exclusion and othering are not how to learn.  

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Actually, learning to forgive and find joy in other people's happiness does fit all.  It is universal and works every time.

I agree 100%.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Didn't Jesus say to love your enemies?

1. You're not my enemy.
2. I could (and would!) love you even if you were.
3. Loving people doesn't mean we won't be perplexed by them if they insist on pitching their tents on the fringes of the Camp of Zion.

[hope_for_things]

26 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

1. You're not my enemy.
2. I could (and would!) love you even if you were.
3. Loving people doesn't mean we won't be perplexed by them if they insist on pitching their tents on the fringes of the Camp of Zion.

All parts of the body of Christ are important, even the ones that might seem strange, like the appendix.  My beliefs might seem fridgey, but I'm more orthoprax than most TBMs.  Go figure

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

All parts of the body of Christ are important, even the ones that might seem strange.

On this point, you'll find no argument from me.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Ha, I think a circus is an appropriate metaphor, nice!  

And I agree with you that context, setting, audience will all be influencing factors on how the story is interpreted and told.  My call would be for a telling of story that does the most good and the least harm at the same time.  I'm optimistic and I think we can do a better job of accomplishing the most good for the most people.  

Yes, and that is an individual responsibility, including BTMs (Big Top Mormons).

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I would never ask people not to share their experiences, my hope with this post is that we all be more thoughtful about what is shared and how it's shared realizing multiple valid and different approaches.

This is quite the balancing act: doesn't realizing multiple valid and different approaches allow a very liberal tolerance of what is shared, and encourage good-faith acceptance that the sharing individual is being thoughtful, and is trying to be more thoughtful?

Edited July 11, 2017 by CV75

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks bluebell.  My concern with this, is that I think my experience is different.  I don't believe in miracles in the same way many others do.  I don't believe in supernatural interventions by a deity.  I do believe there are things that we can't explain, but I consider them natural just without a current explanation for why.  But that doesn't mean I don't believe in miracles in the way I define them.  

I think some people want to put being "a person of faith" into a box that requires certain types of belief about a theistic God, but for others like myself who've lost a belief in that kind of a God, but who still want to be a part of a faith community, I define things differently now, but my experience I think is still valid and I would like it honored in the same way that I can honor the experiences of those that do believe in supernatural phenomena. Does that make sense? 

It makes sense, but I think it's overreaching to expect people to honor beliefs just because someone out there holds them.  What does it matter if anyone else honors our beliefs?  Most people in the church are probably going to believe that you see God incompletely or 'wrong,' but does that really matter?  From my perspective, it's ok not to honor every belief someone has.  We don't really need other people to honor our beliefs.  We don't need our beliefs to be validated by everyone.  I get the importance of validating feelings, but there's no reason to validate beliefs in my opinion.   

As long as people can be loving and show kindness, that's what's important to me.  It's ok if someone thinks i'm completely wrong, as long as they can still be loving and show kindness, i'm good.  

[ALarson]

12 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I used to attend Education Week as well, and had similar experiences back when I really loved to hear the amazing stories of the speakers that I really enjoyed.  They get great crowds to the most popular speakers.  At the time I was a very stage 3 (Fowler) black and white thinker so I wasn't thinking critically about the veracity of these events.  Now that I've researched history and I've looked at countless examples of how myths are formed and how legends get more miraculous with time, or how individuals in the spotlight remember things differently especially when they are telling stories in public, I recognize that there is a lot of exaggeration and fabrication happening out there.  Our human minds were not built to be accurate recording devices, we aren't computers.  

When people invent stories or exaggerate intentionally, that really loses a lot of credibility with the audience members.  But interestingly enough I was listening to a podcast recently where they did a study about people listening to stories who knew that the teller of the story was fabricating the story, and the impact of that story was still significant on the beliefs of the people listening.  The finding was that stories are powerful devices and even if people know the story isn't true, it still has an effect on people.  Amazing how our brains have evolved to use story telling to a tool of influence.  

I think many who are called on to speak often may feel pressure to tell incredible stories or awe the audience.  Causing the congregation to feel emotion is the goal, so they will feel a desire to do something or to want to change their lives.  Stories are especially effective when they cause people to cry as many confuse that with feeling the spirit.  I see this done at EFY and other youth activities.  Our Prophet is a great story teller and he's dearly loved and a favorite speaker at GC because of this.  I see no harm in telling stories.  Christ taught with parables.  I just feel that if they are presented as being factual and they aren't, that is being dishonest.  But of course, one can still learn great lessons from fictional parables or stories.  

[hope_for_things]

42 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This is quite the balancing act: doesn't realizing multiple valid and different approaches allow a very liberal tolerance of what is shared, and encourage good-faith acceptance that the sharing individual is being thoughtful, and is trying to be more thoughtful?

It is a balancing act.  I think we have to be more aware, more inclusive, more educated about the past, our biases, and especially more aware of those who have been systematically discriminated against or hurt through various mechanisms.  That's at the core of the gospel to me, Jesus spent his time with the down trodden and the marginalized.  We ought to make ministering to those people our top priority, and that requires us to be more sensitive and tolerant and aware.  

[hope_for_things]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It makes sense, but I think it's overreaching to expect people to honor beliefs just because someone out there holds them.  What does it matter if anyone else honors our beliefs?  Most people in the church are probably going to believe that you see God incompletely or 'wrong,' but does that really matter?  From my perspective, it's ok not to honor every belief someone has.  We don't really need other people to honor our beliefs.  We don't need our beliefs to be validated by everyone.  I get the importance of validating feelings, but there's no reason to validate beliefs in my opinion.   

As long as people can be loving and show kindness, that's what's important to me.  It's ok if someone thinks i'm completely wrong, as long as they can still be loving and show kindness, i'm good.  

I don't expect people to honor my beliefs, I guess I just hope that they would and its a wish or hope more than an expectation.  I set my expectations much lower in that I generally expect that if I'm open and honest about my beliefs that many people will not treat those beliefs with kindness and respect.  That hurts to articulate.  Its sad to me that I have to set my expectations so low, that I just expect poor treatment from others, but that's the position I'm in as a minority from a belief perspective.  

The one thing it does that is beneficial to me is it helps me to understand, just a sliver, but at some level I think it helps me better appreciate all those marginalized groups who have been discriminated against across the history of time.  Grateful for that.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

It is a balancing act.  I think we have to be more aware, more inclusive, more educated about the past, our biases, and especially more aware of those who have been systematically discriminated against or hurt through various mechanisms.  That's at the core of the gospel to me, Jesus spent his time with the down trodden and the marginalized.  We ought to make ministering to those people our top priority, and that requires us to be more sensitive and tolerant and aware.  

How do the stories in the OP accomplish that?

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How do the stories in the OP accomplish that?

Precisely I don't think the stories in the OP accomplish the kind of awareness and sensitivity we should aspire to.  

[hagoth7]

22 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I think there are many people who wonder this. Aren't these faith promoting stories the exception rather than the rule.  Are we scared to be honest about the challenges of life?  Personally I feel like church is often very shallow when it comes to sharing stories like this, does every story have to have a faith promoting ending of some kind? 

A community-building narrative will, by definition, build up the community.

Most of *those* are faith promoting.Others are to lift up feeble hands/knees...narratives that simply help us connect and take heart....fx., stories that disclose flaws and foibles that help us recalibrate with the reality that being mortal comes with the territory (fx, tearing down unhealthy versions of perfectionism). An example is the way that some speak with gratitude of Joseph's flaws and imperfections, and say that it gives them hope, that if God could work through a flawed Joseph, He just might be able to work through a flawed me too....and when *that* premise begins to stir...if it is carefully tended and nurtured...the weak things truly can/do become mighty. "I give unto men weakness that they may be humble..." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/12.27c?lang=eng#26

22 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

...and is there a way we can share a faith promoting story, but also be empathetic at the same time, maybe as part of the story we could acknowledge how these things don't always work or happy endings don't always happen.  

Is it enough to say that miracles come according to God's timing and God's will, or does that still produce some stigma that might hurt people that feel like they just have to try harder to be righteous enough to qualify for the blessing?  

Elder Wirthlin's parting Come What May.

And Daniel's companions' "But if not..."

Both embodied in this awesome song from MercyMe:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwiJx4-EzIHVAhUDxGMKHfkGCOAQ8TUIKzAB&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

22 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

...Is empathy an important element to consider...

Yes.

Edited July 11, 2017 by hagoth7