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Missionary finding his lost brother & avoiding dogs


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Posted

I heard the 3 Nephites were there only visible to the missionary and they were holding the mouths shut of the attack dogs.  Is that true?

Another Mormon folklore is born.  No specifics.  No verifiable facts.  But a great story.  God inspires a young man to go on a mission.  God inspires the missionary committee to send him to the mission his lost brother is from.  God inspires the mission president to assign the missionary to the exact area his lost brother lives.  God inspires the missionary to tract the exact street where his lost brother lives. God inspires the brother to be home when the missionaries show up.  God calms the nature of two ferocious attack dogs.  God inspires the missionary to ask the lost brother where he is from.  God inspires the lost brother to mention his parents name.  

Nice to know that God micromanages all of our lives to this extent.  Yet God does not lift a finger when others desperately call out to him for help.  In those times, it is God's will for the life to end or what ever calamity befalls the faithful person who is praying desperately.

Yeah I am a bit cynical on issues like this.  There is a line from a Jonny Lange song.  "I've heard a lot of stories, but my prayers have been ignored."  I have just had way too many stories from church leaders that were manipulated to portray something in a way that slants what actually happened.  Then to find out, it did not really happen that way.  

For those that believe, I tip my hat to you.  It must be an incredible feeling knowing that God watches over every step you make.  

Posted
15 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I have many things I consider to be miracles.  The fact that I'm alive today as I had many health problems in my childhood, I see as a miracle.  The births of my three kids, my marriage to my wonderful wife, my health today, my life in this great country, the experiences that have shaped me many of these church related, I consider all these things miraculous on some level.  Some of them more than others.  I don't think of miracles as supernatural phenomena anymore as I lost that belief and consider myself a naturalist.  

That doesn't mean that science has all the answers, or that currently unobservable natural causes aren't at work that connect us with nature or the universe or God in ways we don't comprehend today.  (just thinking about this idea its really quite compatible with Mormonism if you think about it, as Joseph was speculating about matter and spirit and the forces of the universe.)  

Whats messy to me are the ways that religion and people throughout history have tried to explain phenomena that we call miracles, but not the miracles themselves.  For example, a couple hundred years ago it was considered a heresy for Galileo to show that the earth revolved around the sun, and now pretty much all Christian religions accept this as fact.  Today, many think its a heresy to say that God is a function in our brain that has evolved to have a God experience.  But the neuroscience on this subject is getting more compelling every day and I imagine a future where people will totally accept this as fact, just like how Galileo's ideas are now incorporated into religious paradigms.  Does this make sense?

Yes, it makes sense; very close to how i see things except in addition I believe in God and the Restoration, etc. I would think a naturalist choosing to embed in a community that thrives on spiritual phenomena would see that a rose by any other name would smell as sweet (at least as far as he is concerned), and give place for the community “language.” The naturalist perspective leaves him room to master the neurology of emotion to engender positive feelings in the face of personal challenges, thus maximizing the utility of the organized religion and church through which he has chosen to maintain his sense of community.

The lion tamer who takes a pet store job that is well beneath his interests and earning power so he can spend more time with his family is only going to be truly happy when he refrains from cracking his whip at home or at the store.

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, california boy said:

I heard the 3 Nephites were there only visible to the missionary and they were holding the mouths shut of the attack dogs.  Is that true?

Another Mormon folklore is born.  No specifics.  No verifiable facts.  But a great story.  God inspires a young man to go on a mission.  God inspires the missionary committee to send him to the mission his lost brother is from.  God inspires the mission president to assign the missionary to the exact area his lost brother lives.  God inspires the missionary to tract the exact street where his lost brother lives. God inspires the brother to be home when the missionaries show up.  God calms the nature of two ferocious attack dogs.  God inspires the missionary to ask the lost brother where he is from.  God inspires the lost brother to mention his parents name.  

Nice to know that God micromanages all of our lives to this extent.  Yet God does not lift a finger when others desperately call out to him for help.  In those times, it is God's will for the life to end or what ever calamity befalls the faithful person who is praying desperately.

Yeah I am a bit cynical on issues like this.  There is a line from a Jonny Lange song.  "I've heard a lot of stories, but my prayers have been ignored."  I have just had way too many stories from church leaders that were manipulated to portray something in a way that slants what actually happened.  Then to find out, it did not really happen that way.  

For those that believe, I tip my hat to you.  It must be an incredible feeling knowing that God watches over every step you make.  

You're being more than just cynical. You're being disrespectful at best, if not mocking and sacrilegious. I'm wondering if hope for things is going to visit you with the same wrath he has poured out on Elder Holland for allegedly being hurtful and offensive. 

Juliann a few weeks ago raised a very valid question in a thread about whether believers are being driven away by some of the content on this board. This post by you is, in my mind, a clear example of what she was talking about. 

Edited to add: I see now that not only is hope for things not going to show you the same indignation he did Elder Holland, he has actually applauded you with a rep point. Very telling -- and hypocritical. What happened to "we should strive to be sensitive to as many people as possible" hope for things? 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted
18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I was never able as a missionary to take my investigators to hear Dr. Peterson. Nor did I ever tract into anyone who had a Doctrine and Covenants name.

I feel offended and hurt that you brought this up.

Hah hah. I'm surprised that anybody would believe Dr. Peterson in the first place.  Well, I did.  My bad.

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You're being more than just cynical. You're being disrespectful at best, if not mocking and sacrilegious. I'm wondering if hope for things is going to visit you with the same wrath he has poured out on Elder Holland for allegedly being hurtful and offensive. 

Juliann a few weeks ago raised a very valid question in a thread about whether believers are being driven away by some of the content on this board. This post by you is, in my mind, a clear example of what she was talking about. 

Edited to add: I see now that not only is hope for things not going to show you the same indignation he did Elder Holland, he has actually applauded you with a rep point. Very telling -- and hypocritical. What happened to "we should strive to be sensitive to as many people as possible" hope for things? 

Scott, just because I don't believe the same as you does not mean that I am being disrespectful or mocking sacred things.  This is a discussion group.  We share opinions and ideas.  We come at these kinds of stories from a very different life experience.  Last time I checked, we all don't have to nod our heads in the same direction when a subject is being discussed.  

Is my opinion so threatening to you that you have to lash out and resort to pointing fingers at everyone that disagrees with you?

Does this sound like someone who doesn't respect other peoples opinion?

Quote

For those that believe, I tip my hat to you.  It must be an incredible feeling knowing that God watches over every step you make.  

If you and juliann only want a board where everyone looks at issues in the exact same way, then kick me and everyone that has a different opinion off the board.  Then you can have an echo chamber where everyone thinks the same.  Everyone will applaud your brilliance because no one will challenge your assumptions.  And all will be well in Zion.

Edited by california boy
Posted

Accuracy matters.

I'm reminded of the story that is told of Porter Rockwell riding a unicycle around temple square wearing nothing but his cowboy hat. The story is told to reinforce a narrative or at least a POV that Rockwell was a ne'er do well who should be considered an embarrassment to the church. However, my understanding is that the story is made up. It's not real, or at least embellished to reinforce the narrative. So retelling that story, without explaining that it may be total fiction, actually hurts the narrative the story was originally being told to reinforce. It backfires.

The same kind of backfire effect happens when people tell faith promoting rumors that are embellished or totally made up in an attempt to support their particular narrative. When it is discovered that the story isn't accurate it actually undermines the original intent of bolstering faith.

Posted
4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, it makes sense; very close to how i see things except in addition I believe in God and the Restoration, etc. I would think a naturalist choosing to embed in a community that thrives on spiritual phenomena would see that a rose by any other name would smell as sweet (at least as far as he is concerned), and give place for the community “language.” The naturalist perspective leaves him room to master the neurology of emotion to engender positive feelings in the face of personal challenges, thus maximizing the utility of the organized religion and church through which he has chosen to maintain his sense of community.

 

The lion tamer who takes a pet store job that is well beneath his interests and earning power so he can spend more time with his family is only going to be truly happy when he refrains from cracking his whip at home or at the store.

 

Thanks for the comments, this is kind of how I see it as well.  I think I'm just at the front end of a societal trend where most people will eventually journey towards with time, but I might not see it in my lifetime.  At any rate, I'm hoping to continue to find value and add value to the community.  

Posted
2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You're being more than just cynical. You're being disrespectful at best, if not mocking and sacrilegious. I'm wondering if hope for things is going to visit you with the same wrath he has poured out on Elder Holland for allegedly being hurtful and offensive. 

Juliann a few weeks ago raised a very valid question in a thread about whether believers are being driven away by some of the content on this board. This post by you is, in my mind, a clear example of what she was talking about. 

Edited to add: I see now that not only is hope for things not going to show you the same indignation he did Elder Holland, he has actually applauded you with a rep point. Very telling -- and hypocritical. What happened to "we should strive to be sensitive to as many people as possible" hope for things? 

I'm not taking the bait.  

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, california boy said:

Scott, just because I don't believe the same as you does not mean that I am being disrespectful or mocking sacred things. 

This is crap, and you know it. 

Mocking and disrespecting the sacred beliefs of others is precisely what you did. 

Shame on you. 

If I were to treat the solemn and sincerely held beliefs of other faith traditions in this manner, I would expect to be roundly criticized for it by others on this board, perhaps even by you, and rightly so. 

Quote

If you and juliann only want a board where everyone looks at issues in the exact same way, then kick me and everyone that has a different opinion off the board.  Then you can have an echo chamber where everyone thinks the same.  Everyone will applaud your brilliance because no one will challenge your assumptions.  And all will be well in Zion.

I'm not asking for universal agreement. I'm only calling for the sort of civility I'm willing to accord to others.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not taking the bait.  

Not surprising. It can be uncomfortable to be called out on one's own hypocrisy. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted
2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is crap, and you know it. 

Mocking and disrespecting the sacred beliefs of others is precisely what you did. 

Shame on you. 

If I were to treat the solemn and sincerely held beliefs of other faith traditions in this manner, I would expect to be roundly criticized for it by others on this board, perhaps even by you, and rightly so. 

I'm not asking for universal agreement. I'm only calling for the sort of civility I'm willing to accord to others.

I apologize to you and anyone else who may have been offended by my opinion on the story being discussed.  That was not my intent. 

Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, california boy said:

I apologize to you and anyone else who may have been offended by my opinion on the story being discussed.  That was not my intent. 

A passive-aggressive, non-apology apology. It wasn't your opinion I was taking you to task for. It was the mockery, sacrilege and insolence with which it was expressed.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted
3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

"Sin, even if legalized by man, is still sin in the eyes of God". – Elder Russell M. Nelson

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

Posted
2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is crap, and you know it. 

Mocking and disrespecting the sacred beliefs of others is precisely what you did. 

 

I would imagine that california boy believes his marriage to be sacred.  I haven't seen much respect towards him on that topic from many on here.

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I would imagine that california boy believes his marriage to be sacred.  I haven't seen much respect towards him on that topic from many on here.

What you have seen on here with regard to that is disagreement. I'm talking about mockery, sacrilege, rudeness, insolence.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted
Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

What you have seen on here with regard to that is disagreement. I'm talking about mockery, sacrilege, rudeness.

 

And, I've seen similar things done and said to him and others on that topic.  That's all I was pointing out.  We all need to remember that different things may be sacred to different individuals on here.

Posted
10 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

"Sin, even if legalized by man, is still sin in the eyes of God". – Elder Russell M. Nelson

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

Out-of-context quotation has never impressed me much. I doubt it does very many people here.

Posted

Calling gay marriage itself an abomination and perverse probably seems like mocking and rudeness to many when there are less extreme words that convey the same idea.

The above is different than disagreement or even just using the term "immoral" to describe gay marriage.

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