Missionary finding his lost brother & avoiding dogs

[hope_for_things]

27 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

We have already had an apostle tell us that some things that are true are not very useful.  So..if a faith promoting story is not based on truth and facts, what good is it really? Is it just useful because it is faith promoting...?

I think that depends on what the story is useful for.  If the goal is to promote the institution, then its useful for that purpose.   Perhaps we should analyze the effectiveness of stories like this.  Is the use of a story like this having the effect that the teller of the story intends, meaning is the institution being strengthened or weakened through the telling of the story?  What are the negative ramifications for telling a story like this?  Should we consider how this story is interpreted by the audience?  

[CV75]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

When stories like this are shared, is it a good thing for our faith community?  Knowing that many more members will have family members who leave the church and never return, isn't sharing a story like this more likely to produce false hope in people, making people question whether they are righteous enough to deserve this kind of a blessing from God.  

Does it do more harm than good to share stories like this, considering how rare they are?  Or is false hope actually a net positive thing for people to hold on to?  Thoughts?

Please define "a story like this," since its value to the faith community depends on what you think it is, and also what you think the community is, since each particular circle that can constitutes a community often enjoys its own unique dynamics.

[ksfisher]

53 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

if a faith promoting story is not based on truth and facts, what good is it really? Is it just useful because it is faith promoting...?

" A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves..."

[juliann]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I think it matters to the listener if the story being shared is accurate or a gross exaggeration.  Now this is not to say that anecdotes or even fictional stories aren't also powerful teaching devices, they are.  Thinking of Paul H. Dunn as an example.  

I think it also might matter to the individuals in the story, remember that these are real people, and if the story being told about them is reflective of their actual experience might matter very much to them.  I personally wouldn't like it if I new someone else was telling a story about me, if I knew the story they were telling was materially different than how I experienced the event.  That would bother me.  

Invading the privacy of the participants isn't relevant to the accuracy of the story.  In one of your links, the reporter said that Holland knew these folks and had followed up on them. So again, it seems to come back to not trusting Holland rather than anything about the story itself.  The participants have surely had the opportunity to speak out given the publicity unless there is now going to be another thread on the church silencing them. So I think it is a safe assumption that Holland was telling the truth about protecting their privacy. Or they don't exist which seems to have been the bent of the other threads on this. 

 

Quote

 

Interesting, so I'm sensing a theme here from some participants.  Why do you consider the questions I asked in this thread to be "extreme reactions"? 

I wanted to get input and have a discussion and I'd like to understand why you aren't addressing any of the questions I posed in the OP and are instead showing a defensiveness towards having dialogue about this subject, maybe there is something going on here that I just don't understand.  

 

Why would you think my questions are defensive rather than sincere? Or that I also have sincere questions about the need to recycle this story?  I am truly puzzled by the reaction to one story. Is this not the third thread on this blip of time in a talk? You have now added Paul Dunn to the narrative. So the negativity is growing at each retelling or questioning.

As for your question, you are talking to someone whose husband died. Every widow has horror stories about things people said to them. But to expect everyone else to stop telling stories wouldn't even enter my mind. (That doesn't mean I am not annoyed by folklore or over the top stuff.)  So the only thing another thread on this elicits in me is...what is really going on when it comes to this particular story? 

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think that depends on what the story is useful for.  If the goal is to promote the institution, then its useful for that purpose.   Perhaps we should analyze the effectiveness of stories like this.  Is the use of a story like this having the effect that the teller of the story intends, meaning is the institution being strengthened or weakened through the telling of the story?  What are the negative ramifications for telling a story like this?  Should we consider how this story is interpreted by the audience?  

I've found these discussions to be interesting regarding this one story.  I also find the different versions to be interesting and wonder which one is the most accurate (not that I'm that concerned because they differ in areas that don't really affect the basic story of a prodigal son returning home).  I tend to believe that it's been embellished some for dramatic effect, but many stories are enhanced some when given in a speech.

This reminds me of when I used to travel up to Education Week each year.  So many of the speakers were ones who I'd go back to year after year.  I'd hear new stories told each year most of the time (new material) and these were things that had taken place over their last year.  I found that I finally just had to stop and wonder why these speakers had all of these incredible, life altering, faith promoting, bigger than life experiences all the time.  I felt that my life was very boring and uneventful in comparison.  These people could take the most mundane event and turn it into an epic story.  I finally concluded that their life really wasn't that different from mine, but they did have the ability to tell a great story and also maybe see things that I didn't see. 

But these stories started loosing their effect on me after awhile.  I stopped being wowed or impressed.  Also, I met one of my favorite speaker's sister-in-law who told me most of his stories were made up (mainly regarding how his fiance died in his arms before he met her sister and married her....and many other stories regarding that and their marriage).  It was one of his most popular stories too and a real tear jerker (the youth loved it!).  So, it made me wonder what else was made up?

I don't know.  I think some incredible things do happen to people and we can learn from these stories.  It would really be wonderful to hear this man tell his own story and find out what really did happen with him and his brother.  But, he may not want to talk about it or share what took place in his life (remain anonymous).  But, If so, should others continue telling it?  Maybe....but maybe not.

[Johnnie Cake]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

First, I would take screen-grabs of the different versions because I suspect if this gains any traction, they'll disappear.

But reading the different accounts doesn't bother me at all.  Obviously, Elder Holland has told the story several times to different audiences, and each time, he emphasizes certain details and aspects of the event.  For example, was the house guarded by "Rottweilers" or "Doberman Pinschers"? If we only had the Texas account, we might think they were Rottweilers.  If we only had the DN account, we might think they were Dobermans.  But through both accounts, we can learn the full scope of the story in that there were actually four dogs: two Rottweilers and two Dobermans.  This detail only heightens the danger the missionaries were in, and gives us a greater understanding of the story.  There is no conflict at all between the two stories. When the stories refer to "two dogs", that doesn't mean they are referring to all the dogs, since there were actually four.  It only means that the story teller at the time decided to emphasize those two particular dogs.

Of course, since this is a story of real people, taking place in real places in the modern world, it should be possible for someone sharing the story to get additional info about these events.  Certainly, it would be possible for someone sharing or reporting the story to do so.  We could even call such a person a "sharer" or "reporter" of the story.  Hopefully such a person could track down these additional details as a course of their job as a "sharer" or "reporter."  Ideally, this person would even have special skills, experience and training in this area to make sure it is done properly.  Maybe one day it will happen.

 

I would also add that everyone should read this book about probability.  After reading it, you might find yourself listening to these stories and thinking "that only happened once?  It should have happened much more than that just by chance."

I'm pretty sure that this story has actually happened twice to 2 different Idaho families...one living in Pocatello and one living in Idaho Falls.  Both families had son's who ran away to join hells angles...(ironic I know...gives me chills) each independent of the other, of course.  Both run away son's owned dogs...one of the sons owned Doberman's and the other son from the other family owned Rottweiler's.  Both runaway boys had families who prayed for their return for over 20 years  and were unaware that they had younger brothers.  Both of the younger brothers from these 2 different families were to called (mostly to fulfill the prayers of their respective parents) to the same Los Angeles mission where each of them, independent of the other tracted out their respective Hell's Angel brothers and convinced them to return home...one to Pocatello and the other to Idaho Falls.  Both brother's were sealed to their brides in the Boise Temple on the same day. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Okrahomer]

Prayer and miracles are something I have thought a lot about in recent months.  I have come to the conclusion that the God who has reached through time and space to forgive me of my sins, is still—and always will be—a God of miracles.  Miracles take different forms depending on the Lord’s knowledge of what will be best for us—ultimately.  Miracles can come in the form of something as simple as inspired teaching that changes thinking, behavior, and hearts; some miracles come in the form of a feeling of peace and comfort; and yes some miracles come in more “miraculous” forms—as is the case in this story.

I have been knocked to my knees on more than one occasion, and have approached the mercy seat searching for blessings and answers.  More often than not, the blessings I have received were different from the blessing I was seeking.  Why should that disappoint me?  I count among the most precious experiences of my life, those prayers I have offered up with one object in mind; only to rise up finding that my heart and mind have been changed.

[T-Shirt]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Hmm...  I would agree that life isn't fair, but I don't think that means we shouldn't try to be fair to others, shouldn't that be an aspiration to strive for?  x

Where have I advocated for treating people unfairly?  Of course we should strive to be fair.  But if we teach that life should be fair, (whatever that means) you will set people up for nothing but heartache.  Teach forgiveness rather than taking offense or revenge.

Quote

Lastly, I agree with your comment about how we should love our neighbor and mourn and rejoice with them.  I would challenge you about that mourning part and ask how do you expect to mourn with someone who has experienced a great loss and who is hurt by a faith promoting story of miraculous proportions, if you can't truly empathize with their experience?  

You can understand and have compassion for someone who is mourning without condoning their taking offense at something that was not done to hurt them.  You can effectively teach people to look at things from a different angle and help them learn to recognize how they have been blessed.

Edited July 10, 2017 by T-Shirt

[strappinglad]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

When stories like this are shared, is it a good thing for our faith community?  Knowing that many more members will have family members who leave the church and never return, isn't sharing a story like this more likely to produce false hope in people, making people question whether they are righteous enough to deserve this kind of a blessing from God.  

Does it do more harm than good to share stories like this, considering how rare they are?  Or is false hope actually a net positive thing for people to hold on to?  Thoughts?

Actually, I was referring to the content of both threads, but if you want to be specific, the questions posed above carry a tinge of passive aggressiveness with what seems to me to be complaining that the story was not a " good " thing to be expressed and implies that the Apostle should have known better, like you would have.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

For every miracle that seems to occur and/or is shared through faith promoting stories are people who haven't experienced a miracle wondering "why not me?"

It reminds me of the terrorist attack last year in which it was reported that no missionaries were killed, as if they were protected because they were missionaries. Of course, the people who were killed, and their families likely didn't find much solace that God spared someone else while allowing their loved one to perish.

 

After my son chose not to go on a mission and did things that started to make me give up hope that he would ever go I found it very painful to read all the Facebook posts from my friends telling about their missionaries. One friend in particular was posting a lot and constantly talking about how much she missed her son. I finally had to hide her and other friends.

My brother is an addict, parolee and usually homeless. I asked my mom if she felt the pain I did when other people talked about the good things happening in their children's lives. She seemed confused by that and said that no, she was glad to know those things. It has amazed me that she naturally was able to do that.

After thinking about that all I realized that the problem was me. Oh, it is natural to have that pain, but after a bit I was the one holding on to it. When you think about it - do you want to stop hearing about the great things one of your children is doing because the other child is making bad choices? No. The only time you feel that way is if you are comparing the two. So why was I comparing one child of God with another?

I remember after that "liking" a missionary post of my one friend and how so much of my pain melted away. It's not easy and that comparing pain still rears it's head from time to time, but I understand so much more now. 

Last year my VT kept telling me how her son changed around. I hated it. There is no guarantee  that mine will change around and I didn't want her to share her stories with me to make me hope it would happen to my son. I wanted to feel validated that perhaps things will never go well with him because our doctrine with 1/3 of God's children tells us that is a possibility. I wanted my pain to be acknowledged. And really it was not the story that was shared that caused me the pain. It was the not listening to me that made the story really pinch.

She shared her story in F&T meeting and it did wonders for my husband, but nothing for me. Then came the women's session of general conference and 2 speakers validated my pain. And that made all the difference for me.

My husband needed to hear those stories. Heavenly Father knew I needed something different. Luckily I held on till I was ready to hear what he wanted me to hear.

So I do think faith promoting stories are very important, but not all stories will be important to everyone. 

You need be sensitive. If you teach YW and one YW's parents divorced 2 days ago then it may not be the right time for a lesson about eternal marriage. Timing is a big thing. If your friend's son on Message Board A died from an overdose you may want to post about how your son was saved on Message Board B instead or only. Place is a big thing. But at some point we really need to be ok with sharing good stories and miracles. At some point we have to be ok with letting the pain go. 

 

 

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I would never say how i would actually feel in such a situation, but right now, thinking intellectually and rationally about it, I think it would give me comfort knowing that God was in control.  

I would rather lose a loved one, even if others were saved, knowing God was aware of who was dying, than think that God either didn't care who lived or died, or could not intervene to bring about His will in the matter even though He did care. 

I would hope that in the event of such a situation, that I wouldn't be so selfish as to be upset that some had been spared, just because my loved one wasn't.  But I also recognize that grief is not usually rational or kind and that's o.k.  

A similar experience happens fairly frequently in my case. It's less intellectual for me. I want to be married and have kids. I'm not. I'm currently not near it happening in the easily foreseeable future. I watch others around me get married and some of the circumstances are fairly miraculous. Like my friend who had several social anxiety issues and trauma from her childhood that left her barely functional at church and other social areas...she could barely manage being touched.  She got married to feasibly one of the gentlest sweetest men....absolutely perfect for her. Her in-laws are great. And she has 2 kids inspite of having several medical concerns and surgeries throughout her life. There's not a single inch of me jealous about what I see as a miracle. 

There are moments where I'm less gracious and it does hurt. But that has little to do with whether the story should be told and everything to do with myself. I don't think we should taper stories left and right just because someone out there may be aching when they hear it. At some point the listener needs to take their own accountability for their own emotions. 

For the record, most days I find miracle stories that go counter to my own lived experience comforting. It just tells me that God can care for all in His due time. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

What an awful way to live, always looking for ways to be offended and turn other people's joy into your pain.

Sometimes I wish the board had a mega-like function...

[ALarson]

22 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm pretty sure that this story has actually happened twice to 2 different Idaho families...one living in Pocatello and one living in Idaho Falls.  Both families had son's who ran away to join hells angles...(ironic I know...gives me chills) each independent of the other, of course.  Both run away son's owned dogs...one of the sons owned Doberman's and the other son from the other family owned Rottweiler's.  Both runaway boys had families who prayed for their return for over 20 years  and had younger brothers who were unaware that they had younger brothers.  Both of these run away brothers had younger brothers who were to called (mostly to fulfill the prayers of their respective parents) to the same Los Angeles mission where each of them, independent of the other tracted out their respective Hell's Angel brothers and convinced them to return home...one to Pocatello and the other to Idaho Falls.  Both brother's were sealed to their brides in the Boise Temple on the same day

Now, this is funny.  But hey!  Maybe your version is the closest to the truth.  It certainly ties up all the loose ends 

Edited July 10, 2017 by ALarson

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm going to chalk it up to coincidence that the missionary found his long lost brother. And I'm now thinking that God provided a world and now onto other things. I don't believe He can answer our prayers and I think it's up to us basically. If this were not the case it shows that God is a respector of persons. It's the lost key analogy, someone prays to find their keys and get their prayer answered. But the poor soul that is in far worse condition doesn't? 

No, the God whom I now believe in, doesn't hold a lot of control, we are pretty much on our own, or that God does have favorites, or who prays the hardest, or who is the most righteous, wins? No, that's not how I picture Him at all anymore. I think He gave us agency and it's up to us how we use it. And the poor souls that were born with nothing and in the poorest of situations, I hope the angels are there to get them through until they do die. Or anyone that is going through an ordeal. 

I'm now becoming immuned to the faith promoting stories because of the huge descrepancies between the situations out there. I know how cynical I sound, and maybe I'll change my mind, but until then I need some hard facts, from the first party to believe this story anymore. Or it is believable, just not giving God the whole credit, though I would like to. Except then, I would have to accept a God that doesn't care about so many others out there. 

Yes, agency is a huge thing. Love that God allows us to help perform miracles in the lives of others. Love that like I helped my children solve their own problems with little bits of knowledge or nudges from me, God does that with us. I have been the victim of too many people who forcibly say, "I will do it for you" and I'm glad God doesn't do that. 

At the same time I think there are a lot of times when he saved us and we have no clue of the disaster we avoided. You hear stories (I had a feeling I shouldn't travel that direction so I didn't and there was a big wreck I avoided), but how often do you hear stories like this- I was going to leave 3 minutes earlier, but my sister called  and unbeknownst to me I avoided causing a wreck?

How often do we assume miracles are not happening just because we don't know about them? What if that missionary who was killed was miraculously saved 9 times before he went on his mission and the big miracle was that God kept him here till he reached one particular person and fulfilled his mission in life?

 

[Tacenda]

27 minutes ago, Rain said:

Yes, agency is a huge thing. Love that God allows us to help perform miracles in the lives of others. Love that like I helped my children solve their own problems with little bits of knowledge or nudges from me, God does that with us. I have been the victim of too many people who forcibly say, "I will do it for you" and I'm glad God doesn't do that. 

At the same time I think there are a lot of times when he saved us and we have no clue of the disaster we avoided. You hear stories (I had a feeling I shouldn't travel that direction so I didn't and there was a big wreck I avoided), but how often do you hear stories like this- I was going to leave 3 minutes earlier, but my sister called  and unbeknownst to me I avoided causing a wreck?

How often do we assume miracles are not happening just because we don't know about them? What if that missionary who was killed was miraculously saved 9 times before he went on his mission and the big miracle was that God kept him here till he reached one particular person and fulfilled his mission in life?

 

This is exactly how I've felt many times too. And how often we don't realize the miracles being bestowed on us. Thanks for sharing Rain!

I was just on the link below because my neighbor just commented on someone's FB, that they had shared Elder Holland's story from last Saturday's Church News. She commented that she then shared it with her two sons who are serving missions, I guess it does give them hope of being a miracle in someone's life like that. https://www.lds.org/church/news?lang=eng&start=17&end=24&source=headquarters#news-list

Also, either LDS like sharing faith promoting stories, or we have more faith promoting stories to share, because I just went to google and typed in "Are faith promoting stories useful?" to see what what would come up and one page after another were LDS links.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

48 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Prayer and miracles are something I have thought a lot about in recent months.  I have come to the conclusion that the God who has reached through time and space to forgive me of my sins, is still—and always will be—a God of miracles.  Miracles take different forms depending on the Lord’s knowledge of what will be best for us—ultimately.  Miracles can come in the form of something as simple as inspired teaching that changes thinking, behavior, and hearts; some miracles come in the form of a feeling of peace and comfort; and yes some miracles come in more “miraculous” forms—as is the case in this story.

I have been knocked to my knees on more than one occasion, and have approached the mercy seat searching for blessings and answers.  More often than not, the blessings I have received were different from the blessing I was seeking.  Why should that disappoint me?  I count among the most precious experiences of my life, those prayers I have offered up with one object in mind; only to rise up finding that my heart and mind have been changed.

I hope that mine and other's prayers for you will be heard by a choir of angels.  God Bless You Okra!!

[Jeanne]

32 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Now, this is funny.  But hey!  Maybe your version is the closest to the truth.  It certainly ties up all the loose ends 

One can only assume that their first borns were on the same day..with same name..why not?

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is exactly how I've felt many times too. And how often we don't realize the miracles being bestowed on us. Thanks for sharing Rain!

I was just on the link below because my neighbor just commented on someone's FB, that they had shared Elder Holland's story from last Saturday's Church News. She commented that she then shared it with her two sons who are serving missions, I guess it does give them hope of being a miracle in someone's life like that. https://www.lds.org/church/news?lang=eng&start=17&end=24&source=headquarters#news-list

Also, either LDS like sharing faith promoting stories, or we have more faith promoting stories to share, because I just went to google and typed in "Are faith promoting stories useful?" to see what what would come up and one page after another were LDS links.

 

It's probably the terminology (faith promoting stories) that is unique to LDS, rather than the idea.

[bluebell]

I don't think there's anything wrong with not believing every faith promoting story that we hear.  I think the real issue is not becoming a person who can't/won't believe in miracles.  That's what I see as being at stake.  

As long as we can remain a person of faith, and continue to believe in a God of miracles, then whether or not we believe every faith promoting story presented to us is irrelevant.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm pretty sure that this story has actually happened twice to 2 different Idaho families...one living in Pocatello and one living in Idaho Falls.  Both families had son's who ran away to join hells angles...(ironic I know...gives me chills) each independent of the other, of course.  Both run away son's owned dogs...one of the sons owned Doberman's and the other son from the other family owned Rottweiler's.  Both runaway boys had families who prayed for their return for over 20 years  and were unaware that they had younger brothers.  Both of the younger brothers from these 2 different families were to called (mostly to fulfill the prayers of their respective parents) to the same Los Angeles mission where each of them, independent of the other tracted out their respective Hell's Angel brothers and convinced them to return home...one to Pocatello and the other to Idaho Falls.  Both brother's were sealed to their brides in the Boise Temple on the same day. 

Are you sure it was the Hells Angels and not Heavens Demons?

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Please define "a story like this," since its value to the faith community depends on what you think it is, and also what you think the community is, since each particular circle that can constitutes a community often enjoys its own unique dynamics.

The story like this is the faith promoting narrative with the miraculous ending.  

The community i was thinking in broad terms for anyone that considers themselves involved in Mormonism, a big tent approach.  

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Invading the privacy of the participants isn't relevant to the accuracy of the story.  In one of your links, the reporter said that Holland knew these folks and had followed up on them. So again, it seems to come back to not trusting Holland rather than anything about the story itself.  The participants have surely had the opportunity to speak out given the publicity unless there is now going to be another thread on the church silencing them. So I think it is a safe assumption that Holland was telling the truth about protecting their privacy. Or they don't exist which seems to have been the bent of the other threads on this.

I didn't say anything about invading privacy of the participants.  Also, Elder Holland isn't a reporter himself, and doesn't have any professional training on corroborating stories.  But that aside, I also said in an earlier comment that I found the basic story believable in spite of the differing accounts.  I don't think the story is necessarily evidence of supernatural intervention, but I think its miraculous and I'm sure those involved would view it that way, as would I had it happened in my family.  That doesn't mean that the elements to the story haven't been embellished, we all know that this happens often, and I have no reason to doubt that it could have happened here as well.  

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Why would you think my questions are defensive rather than sincere?

Probably because you characterized this topic as an "extreme reaction" 

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Or that I also have sincere questions about the need to recycle this story? 

I explained why I started the thread in the OP, the story came up in Sunday School and I checked with the person to start the previous thread as to why it was closed, and they didn't know.  Anyway, I find your lack of faith disturbing.  (Vader voice)

2 hours ago, juliann said:

 I am truly puzzled by the reaction to one story. Is this not the third thread on this blip of time in a talk? You have now added Paul Dunn to the narrative. So the negativity is growing at each retelling or questioning.

I'm feeling negative about the tone and approach of your post, but thats about it right now. 

2 hours ago, juliann said:

As for your question, you are talking to someone whose husband died. Every widow has horror stories about things people said to them. But to expect everyone else to stop telling stories wouldn't even enter my mind. (That doesn't mean I am not annoyed by folklore or over the top stuff.)  So the only thing another thread on this elicits in me is...what is really going on when it comes to this particular story? 

I'm sorry to hear about your husband that has to be life changing and I've never experienced a death to a family member that close in my life.  I didn't say that I expect everyone to stop telling stories, and I can't imagine how you interpreted that from my post.  Please go back and read what I've said, I think you're misunderstanding my position and the questions I asked.  I'm trying to have a thoughtful discussion and I think you are reading much into my position that I haven't said.  Look at the post that Calm made where she recommended how we could be thoughtful to both sides when telling faith promoting stories, it strikes me as a very prudent middle ground position. 

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I've found these discussions to be interesting regarding this one story.  I also find the different versions to be interesting and wonder which one is the most accurate (not that I'm that concerned because they differ in areas that don't really affect the basic story of a prodigal son returning home).  I tend to believe that it's been embellished some for dramatic effect, but many stories are enhanced some when given in a speech.

This reminds me of when I used to travel up to Education Week each year.  So many of the speakers were ones who I'd go back to year after year.  I'd hear new stories told each year most of the time (new material) and these were things that had taken place over their last year.  I found that I finally just had to stop and wonder why these speakers had all of these incredible, life altering, faith promoting, bigger than life experiences all the time.  I felt that my life was very boring and uneventful in comparison.  These people could take the most mundane event and turn it into an epic story.  I finally concluded that their life really wasn't that different from mine, but they did have the ability to tell a great story and also maybe see things that I didn't see. 

But these stories started loosing their effect on me after awhile.  I stopped being wowed or impressed.  Also, I met one of my favorite speaker's sister-in-law who told me most of his stories were made up (mainly regarding how his fiance died in his arms before he met her sister and married her....and many other stories regarding that and their marriage).  It was one of his most popular stories too and a real tear jerker (the youth loved it!).  So, it made me wonder what else was made up?

I don't know.  I think some incredible things do happen to people and we can learn from these stories.  It would really be wonderful to hear this man tell his own story and find out what really did happen with him and his brother.  But, he may not want to talk about it or share what took place in his life (remain anonymous).  But, If so, should others continue telling it?  Maybe....but maybe not.

I used to attend Education Week as well, and had similar experiences back when I really loved to hear the amazing stories of the speakers that I really enjoyed.  They get great crowds to the most popular speakers.  At the time I was a very stage 3 (Fowler) black and white thinker so I wasn't thinking critically about the veracity of these events.  Now that I've researched history and I've looked at countless examples of how myths are formed and how legends get more miraculous with time, or how individuals in the spotlight remember things differently especially when they are telling stories in public, I recognize that there is a lot of exaggeration and fabrication happening out there.  Our human minds were not built to be accurate recording devices, we aren't computers.  

When people invent stories or exaggerate intentionally, that really loses a lot of credibility with the audience members.  But interestingly enough I was listening to a podcast recently where they did a study about people listening to stories who knew that the teller of the story was fabricating the story, and the impact of that story was still significant on the beliefs of the people listening.  The finding was that stories are powerful devices and even if people know the story isn't true, it still has an effect on people.  Amazing how our brains have evolved to use story telling to a tool of influence.  

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

You can understand and have compassion for someone who is mourning without condoning their taking offense at something that was not done to hurt them.  You can effectively teach people to look at things from a different angle and help them learn to recognize how they have been blessed.

I don't think you'll effectively connect to those people unless you are truly honoring their pain.  By trying to avoid "condoning their taking offense at something" you're essentially dismissing their perspective as being valid and I don't think this is an effective way of ministering to people.  Their hurt is valid, there is nothing wrong about them being hurt or offended, I honor those who have been hurt and take offense to insensitive story telling, and I would instead show love and understanding and acceptance and mourn with them, rather than try to preach to them about how they have been blessed. 

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Actually, I was referring to the content of both threads, but if you want to be specific, the questions posed above carry a tinge of passive aggressiveness with what seems to me to be complaining that the story was not a " good " thing to be expressed and implies that the Apostle should have known better, like you would have.

Black and white thinking again.  I'm not saying the story is all bad or all good.  I'm asking people to consider the implications of telling stories and how it affects the community for both good and bad.  Life is messy, how can we do better, and be more thoughtful, more understanding.  Think about it.