Mormon 8 - Is This Us?

[Ahab]

So who or what is the holy church of God that is being polluted?

First understand that Moroni is talking about polluted or corrupt churches while asking why they want to pollute or corrupt the true church of Christ, to make it into what the various churches had created. We know what the true church of Christ is today, and which one it was in his day, but he's asking why the people he saw had corrupted it instead of maintaining it as it should be.

The people who had corrupted the church in his day, so that it no longer was the true church, had done pretty much the same things as the people he saw in his visions. So he's asking, or more likely venting rhetorically, why they wanted that instead of the true church, which they would have still had if they had not corrupted it and caused it to become apostate.

[CV75]

I have been reading in Mormon chapter 8 recently and it has really concerned me.

This is where Moroni is finishing off his father's work. Mormon is dead and so are pretty well the rest of the Nephites. Moroni sees the day in which the record will come forth and describes the conditions prevelant at that time.

Starting at verse 34 he gets quite specific about things which will come to pass "at the day when these things (the record ie. Book of Mormon) shall come forth among you". He tells us that he is speaking to us as if we were present, and says "I know your doing". He then goes on to describe a people full of pride, wearing costly apparel, ignoring the the poor, loving money and substance, adorning their churches etc. In verse 38 he seems to focus in on the identification of the people he is speaking of. He accuses them of polluting "the holy church of God". Then he goes on to describe the judgements which will follow.

 

My question is, who is he speaking of? Is he describing us, the Latter-day Saints? If not, then what is the holy church of God being spoken of? I am aware of comments made by Ezra Taft Benson many years ago when he appears to interpret it to mean the LDS, and It certainly seems to read that way to me, but I am open to other interpretations.

Just in the spirit of expanding on a theme:

 

Let’s say verse 27 describes the world conditions from 1830 onward to the Second Coming. I think it describes the Great Apostasy, the rejection of God-given conscience, and any undermining of the progress of the latter-day Kingdom (verses 18+).

 

Verse 36 says “your churches” so that would exclude the LDS Church which is the Lord’s Church…but it still would not exclude its members that do the kinds of things that Moroni lists as abominable!

 

Verse 38 speaks of polluting “the holy church of God.” The wicked pollute it; the righteous maintain its purity (wheat and tares).

[thatjimguy]

I have been reading in Mormon chapter 8 recently and it has really concerned me.

This is where Moroni is finishing off his father's work. Mormon is dead and so are pretty well the rest of the Nephites. Moroni sees the day in which the record will come forth and describes the conditions prevelant at that time.

Starting at verse 34 he gets quite specific about things which will come to pass "at the day when these things (the record ie. Book of Mormon) shall come forth among you". He tells us that he is speaking to us as if we were present, and says "I know your doing". He then goes on to describe a people full of pride, wearing costly apparel, ignoring the the poor, loving money and substance, adorning their churches etc. In verse 38 he seems to focus in on the identification of the people he is speaking of. He accuses them of polluting "the holy church of God". Then he goes on to describe the judgements which will follow.

 

My question is, who is he speaking of? Is he describing us, the Latter-day Saints? If not, then what is the holy church of God being spoken of? I am aware of comments made by Ezra Taft Benson many years ago when he appears to interpret it to mean the LDS, and It certainly seems to read that way to me, but I am open to other interpretations.

 

 

There is a reason when I went to BYU-I that the Nephite Pride Cycle was talked of a lot one year. I think they are trying to prevent it.

[MiserereNobis]

This thread actually brings up a question for me about the LDS understanding of the word "church."  In Catholicism, the word church has a few different meanings.  One of those is mystical and it refers to the community or communion of all Christians -- the communion of Saints.  It is in this context that the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, of which all Catholics are members.  This universal (catholic) Church is divided into three parts: the Church militant (those of us fighting on earth), the Church triumphant (those in heaven), and the Church suffering (those in purgatory).

 

Is there or could there be a mystical understanding of "church" in Mormonism parallel to this?  Would it affect the understanding of those verses?

[cinepro]

I have been reading in Mormon chapter 8 recently and it has really concerned me.

This is where Moroni is finishing off his father's work. Mormon is dead and so are pretty well the rest of the Nephites. Moroni sees the day in which the record will come forth and describes the conditions prevelant at that time.

Starting at verse 34 he gets quite specific about things which will come to pass "at the day when these things (the record ie. Book of Mormon) shall come forth among you". He tells us that he is speaking to us as if we were present, and says "I know your doing". He then goes on to describe a people full of pride, wearing costly apparel, ignoring the the poor, loving money and substance, adorning their churches etc. In verse 38 he seems to focus in on the identification of the people he is speaking of. He accuses them of polluting "the holy church of God". Then he goes on to describe the judgements which will follow.

 

My question is, who is he speaking of? Is he describing us, the Latter-day Saints? If not, then what is the holy church of God being spoken of? I am aware of comments made by Ezra Taft Benson many years ago when he appears to interpret it to mean the LDS, and It certainly seems to read that way to me, but I am open to other interpretations.

 

Answering from my own observation and experience:

 

1. Full of pride,

 

Probably a problem with some people, but generally I find LDS to be pretty humble, all things considered.

 

2. Wearing costly apparel

 

Probably varies by area (and the wealth of the members).  I actually bring this up quite a bit, but I don't find it to be an issue locally.  It might also be that I really don't care about "costly apparel", so I don't notice it much. 

 

3. Ignoring the the poor

 

I suspect we could do better on this. I know I could, but it's tough to know what to do sometimes.

 

4. Loving money and substance

 

Again, this isn't something I focus on a lot (my wife probably wishes thought about it a little more).  In general, I think there are a few people in ever ward who think about "money and substance" a little too much, but that's probably true for any group of people.

 

5. Adorning their churches

 

I hate to say it, but I suspect this is more of reference to super fancy Catholic-type churches.  I can't think of many church buildings, LDS or non-LDS, that I would say are overly "adorned" other than the traditional cathedrals and such.  And certainly in 1830 this had to be what was being referred to.  I don't know how someone who lived in 400 AD would be able to "see" our day even understand different types of architecture.

 

[MiserereNobis]

 

 

 

What a beautiful church!  The Church of Santa Maria, the oldest church in Rome.

[Wanderer7]

I actually like Catholic cathedrals. I think they inspire a sense of awe and reverence. If they're done with an eye single to God's glory, I don't care how expensive or fancy a building is. I don't feel like Catholic Bishops are generally trying to swindle people out of their money. What concerns me is the "megachurch" trend. I attended a meeting of one such church in one of our southern states, and the pastor literally asked people for million-dollar donations to build a new wing. I didn't fail to notice the shops, stands, or ATM machines in the movie theater-like lobby. What I didn't see was anything to make me think of Christ or opportunities to give to the poor. The pastor sure couldn't stop talking about giving to the church, though.

[Ahab]

This thread actually brings up a question for me about the LDS understanding of the word "church." In Catholicism, the word church has a few different meanings. One of those is mystical and it refers to the community or communion of all Christians -- the communion of Saints. It is in this context that the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, of which all Catholics are members. This universal (catholic) Church is divided into three parts: the Church militant (those of us fighting on earth), the Church triumphant (those in heaven), and the Church suffering (those in purgatory).

Is there or could there be a mystical understanding of "church" in Mormonism parallel to this? Would it affect the understanding of those verses?

The basic definition of a church is an assembly of people who have been called to assemble, or gather, together. The question then is who called the assembly together? If Christ is the one who calls or called them together, either personally or through an authorized oracle, then it is then the church, or part of the church, of Christ. But if he isn't the one who called, then it is some other church.

[CV75]

This thread actually brings up a question for me about the LDS understanding of the word "church."  In Catholicism, the word church has a few different meanings.  One of those is mystical and it refers to the community or communion of all Christians -- the communion of Saints.  It is in this context that the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, of which all Catholics are members.  This universal (catholic) Church is divided into three parts: the Church militant (those of us fighting on earth), the Church triumphant (those in heaven), and the Church suffering (those in purgatory).

 

Is there or could there be a mystical understanding of "church" in Mormonism parallel to this?  Would it affect the understanding of those verses?

There is the Church (the organization or quorums possessing the restored keys or the general authorities representing the mind and will of the Lord to the world); the overall Church organization (the former plus auxiliaries and units); the church as congregations; the church as chapels and other buildings; buildings the church as membership; the Church of the Firstborn (the community of saints in the afterlife); and the church of the Lamb/God and the church of the devil to distinguish between those who follow their conscience and those who do not.

 

I think the verses could be read from any of these perspectives.

[giotto]

Nice work identifying, MisereNobis! But you need to be more specifc...there are literally hundreds of churches dedicated to the Virgin in Rome. This one I believe is Santa Maria Maggiore, founded in the 4th century. Love that Cosmatesque mosaic floor...

[MiserereNobis]

Nice work identifying, MisereNobis! But you need to be more specifc...there are literally hundreds of churches dedicated to the Virgin in Rome. This one I believe is Santa Maria Maggiore, founded in the 4th century. Love that Cosmatesque mosaic floor...

 

Ha!  If there is a beautiful church in Rome, one has to just say, "oh, that's the church of Saint Mary" and you're probably right

 

Yes, the floor is gorgeous, and that beautiful altar rail, and the stunning iconography...

[JLHPROF]

Answering from my own observation and experience:

 

1. Full of pride,

 

Probably a problem with some people, but generally I find LDS to be pretty humble, all things considered.

 

But there can be little doubt that church membership in general are quite well off (probably due to our focus on education and staying out of debt).  Too much wealth can lead to pride if we're not careful, so maybe more of a warning than a description.

 

2. Wearing costly apparel

 

Probably varies by area (and the wealth of the members).  I actually bring this up quite a bit, but I don't find it to be an issue locally.  It might also be that I really don't care about "costly apparel", so I don't notice it much. 

 

Well there was a time when members would attend church meetings in jeans or worn clothing as that's all they could afford.  Nowadays if you aren't in uniform (dark suit, white shirt, tie, polished shoes) you get pretty funny looks.

 

3. Ignoring the the poor

 

I suspect we could do better on this. I know I could, but it's tough to know what to do sometimes.

 

See this is the one I think the Church absolutely excels at.  They could always do more, but the definitely do NOT ignore the poor.

 

4. Loving money and substance

 

Again, this isn't something I focus on a lot (my wife probably wishes thought about it a little more).  In general, I think there are a few people in ever ward who think about "money and substance" a little too much, but that's probably true for any group of people.

 

There is more of a focus on success in the church than there was in the early days.  College education, nice house, car etc.  No debt.  All good things and not required by the church, but these are considered major goals for members.

 

5. Adorning their churches

 

I hate to say it, but I suspect this is more of reference to super fancy Catholic-type churches.  I can't think of many church buildings, LDS or non-LDS, that I would say are overly "adorned" other than the traditional cathedrals and such.  And certainly in 1830 this had to be what was being referred to.  I don't know how someone who lived in 400 AD would be able to "see" our day even understand different types of architecture.

 

I don't think we "adorn" our churches, and there are areas that don't get a nice chapel to meet in.  But in general our meeting halls are better upkept and nicer than your average neighborhood EV meeting hall.  I think it's just a sign that the larger the organization the nicer the meeting halls.  I mean, we could have stayed with just the tabernacle and the conference center budget would have fed a lot of poor.  But Joseph Smith taught the saints to take advantage of their prosperity when blessed with it.

[strappinglad]

One thing I admire about the Cathedrals is the fabulous workmanship displayed. It is really a display of the faith of the workers who presented their very best for the Lord. In my opinion they will in no way lose their reward for such worshipful efforts to please their Lord and Savior.

I think of the severe sacrifice of the people who gave their all for the construction of the Kirtland Temple, which was far from elaborate but represented the best that they could give.

We don't seem to sacrifice like that any more. Cleaning the church once or twice a year is enough, thanks. To me, Mormon's treatise does point a finger at us modern saints.

[The Nehor]

If you aren't alarmed in general when you read the Book of Mormon you are missing the point.

[janderich]

 

 

I thought that too, until I read chapter 9. There he is addressing non-believers in Christ. They wouldn't normally read the BoM either so this argument is problematic in my view.

Not problematic at all. Moroni's definition of believer and non-believer is much different than the definition most members of the church would give. He says:

 

Behold I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him: and this promise is unto all even unto the ends of the earth. ...And these signs shall follow them that believe - in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover; and whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth. (Mormon 9:21, 24-25)

Believers will ask and it will be granted, they will exercise the gifts of the spirit, they will see visions, and receive revelations. Non-believers will not experience such miracles in their own lives.

 

So, according to Moroni's definition, many non-believers read the BoM. They may claim belief in Christ but they harbor doubts and refuse to come unto him. They are the same ones filled with pride, the ones who pollute the church of God. In short, they are ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ. 

 

See we create a false paradigm in which what we do is on the right side of the line and then in our hearts put others and their organizations on the other side. We make the scriptures fit our false belief and so build ourselves up in our pride.

 

Perhaps everything I'm saying is wrong, but I tell you that I would rather think myself wicked then to put myself in a great and spacious building with no foundation, while pointing out others faults.

Edited March 21, 2014 by janderich

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have been reading in Mormon chapter 8 recently and it has really concerned me.

This is where Moroni is finishing off his father's work. Mormon is dead and so are pretty well the rest of the Nephites. Moroni sees the day in which the record will come forth and describes the conditions prevelant at that time.

Starting at verse 34 he gets quite specific about things which will come to pass "at the day when these things (the record ie. Book of Mormon) shall come forth among you". He tells us that he is speaking to us as if we were present, and says "I know your doing". He then goes on to describe a people full of pride, wearing costly apparel, ignoring the the poor, loving money and substance, adorning their churches etc. In verse 38 he seems to focus in on the identification of the people he is speaking of. He accuses them of polluting "the holy church of God". Then he goes on to describe the judgements which will follow.

My question is, who is he speaking of? Is he describing us, the Latter-day Saints? If not, then what is the holy church of God being spoken of? I am aware of comments made by Ezra Taft Benson many years ago when he appears to interpret it to mean the LDS, and It certainly seems to read that way to me, but I am open to other interpretations.

Indeed he was, and when we forget our calling to the world...judgement cometh! We already know that God will deliver his judgements and cleanse his Church first, and then the world. The only question is will we be are we as individuals, wheat or tares. Edited March 21, 2014 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[VideoGameJunkie]

Paying honest tithes and generous fast offerings should cover us.

[Duncan]

I dunno, to me, LDS Temples represent a piece of heaven on earth and I can't speak for everyone but I don't want to attend a House of the Lord and it to be some dump of place with ill lit or broken lights, toilets that don't work, mice or cats running everywhere, wallpaper that is falling off, place stinks,  flipping garbage strewn everywhere. I imagine heaven to be up to snuff in the cleanliness dept. In saying that to me Temples can be WAY more outrageous then they are.

[krampus]

yes, I would definately say that was us. was there ever a people in the history of the earth that fit that description better than us? nope.

[krampus]

thats why I do as much shopping as I can at deseret industries. Besides, you can get a $200 coat for $15 and an expensive pair of Addidas for $4.

[Paloma]

While I've never been inside an LDS Temple, I've been to many gorgeous cathedrals in Europe and North America and find them awesomely beautiful, faith magnifying and inspirational.

The words of Mormon 8 mentioned in the OP of this thread remind me of passages in the Bible where external trappings and appearances are sometimes brought up for judgement because they're indicative of internal attitudes.

Lavishness and beauty may represent pride, greed, covetousness, etc. And then people who are taken up with these fail to honour the great commandments of Loving God with all our hearts and Loving others as ourselves. But it's also very possible to enjoy exquisite beauty and workmanship that serves to draw us close to God, and inspires us to serve Him and others.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Paloma

[Tiki]

There's a balance. Your body is also a Temple of God.

If you want it to look ugly, fill your stomach and brain with muck.

Otherwise, beautify yourself.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I hope my tithing goes towards temples. It's great knowing we're helping build the church.

[Tacenda]

Maybe this doesn't have anything to do with lavish temples, or not feeding the poor, but is a good read.  It talks about the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law.  Thank goodness Jesus/God came upon the scene to straighten up these "letter of the law" people.  We'd probably all be dead because of all the condemning, stoning etc. for breaking the law.     

 

 

http://ldsviews.blogspot.com/2014/03/keeping-all-commandments.html

[rockpond]

Paying honest tithes and generous fast offerings should cover us.

 

Does it matter how those tithes and offerings are used?  Or just that we pay them?