Alan Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 I have been reading in Mormon chapter 8 recently and it has really concerned me.This is where Moroni is finishing off his father's work. Mormon is dead and so are pretty well the rest of the Nephites. Moroni sees the day in which the record will come forth and describes the conditions prevelant at that time.Starting at verse 34 he gets quite specific about things which will come to pass "at the day when these things (the record ie. Book of Mormon) shall come forth among you". He tells us that he is speaking to us as if we were present, and says "I know your doing". He then goes on to describe a people full of pride, wearing costly apparel, ignoring the the poor, loving money and substance, adorning their churches etc. In verse 38 he seems to focus in on the identification of the people he is speaking of. He accuses them of polluting "the holy church of God". Then he goes on to describe the judgements which will follow. My question is, who is he speaking of? Is he describing us, the Latter-day Saints? If not, then what is the holy church of God being spoken of? I am aware of comments made by Ezra Taft Benson many years ago when he appears to interpret it to mean the LDS, and It certainly seems to read that way to me, but I am open to other interpretations. 1
rpn Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Well Moroni was trying to warn us what not to be. I'd suggest that we each need to look inside ourselves (and in how we administer our callings and stewardships) to assess whether we are spending our money and time the way He would have us do. (Our churches are pretty dang plain, though. Don't see any risk there at the moment.
Popular Post janderich Posted March 20, 2014 Popular Post Posted March 20, 2014 Yes , his words are directed to us. Who reads the BoM? Members of the LDS church. In our pride, dare we excuse ourselves? Moroni says every church has become polluted. That includes the LDS church. 5
Senator Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 (Our churches are pretty dang plain, though. Don't see any risk there at the moment. Have you seen the Gilbert, Az temple? Holy adornments, batman!
rodheadlee Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 I believe he is describing all of the Christian Churches of our time. I see several descriptions that fit quit nicely with other churches and some that fit ours.
BlueDreams Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Have you seen the Gilbert, Az temple? Holy adornments, batman! Psst, he said churches. Besides, temples have a scriptural tradition of being made of pretty fine material, so I doubt he was talking too much about them. 2
Senator Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Psst, he said churches. Besides, temples have a scriptural tradition of being made of pretty fine material, so I doubt he was talking too much about them. Well, of course.
Duncan Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Have you seen the Gilbert, Az temple? Holy adornments, batman! or see the Regina or Bismarck Temple for comparison
BlueDreams Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 But the gilbert temple is gorgeous. I wish I could see it through something other than pics. Ah well....no plans for a trip any time soon.
BlueDreams Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 My question is, who is he speaking of? Is he describing us, the Latter-day Saints? If not, then what is the holy church of God being spoken of? I am aware of comments made by Ezra Taft Benson many years ago when he appears to interpret it to mean the LDS, and It certainly seems to read that way to me, but I am open to other interpretations. I don't know, I think the context leaves it pretty open to all bodies proclaiming to follow Christ (lds included).
Senator Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 But the gilbert temple is gorgeous. I few faithful LDS that I have talked to have expressed their uneasiness with the level of lavishness.
BlueDreams Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 I few faithful LDS that I have talked to have expressed their uneasiness with the level of lavishness. Probably because it doesn't smack gaudy lavishness. It's beautiful and states more of a precious nature of the edifice more so than an outward showiness. The artwork is simple, stained glass beautiful/inspiring but not excessive, the wood work and carvings impeccable but still simple. The way it's built is fair as well, does not spend beyond its means, and is not meant for a source of profit and excess show. Compare this to, say, Dubai's interior architecture to their buildings. And unlike these wealthy (very) gaudy places, the temple is not meant to lead to a feeling of monetary exclusion. When I watch people come in as a temple worker, people of all socioeconomic status will walk in and feel at home in its walls. Not so in most places you'd come by that would be considered lavish. By today's standard this is not a display of excess wealth. The message that comes from it is a source of inspiration and love for the divine through beautiful craftsmanship....that what we find most important is God and our temples are our devotion to Him. It follows a similar tradition going back to the first temples: your best materials were used for the building of the most sacred rituals in the House of God. So no, I doubt most would find it all that bothersome. With luv,BD
Ahab Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Look again at verses 28 and 32.Generally Moroni was referring to other churches, not us, although his warning applies to everyone. Edited March 20, 2014 by Ahab
omni Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 A few years ago I was speaking with a woman from our ward. She worked at a local fabric shop and explained to us they provided the drapes for all of the area temples. She informed us that the drapes used in the temples were they most expensive they carried - $800/yd (or $800 per drape, can't remember for sure). She seemed to take great pride in the fact that only the finest fabric was used for the temple, I remember feeling uncomfortable about it.
Senator Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Probably because it doesn't smack gaudy lavishness. So no, I doubt most would find it all that bothersome. With luv,BD Well, just as long as it is not gaudy lavish.... But I'm not following. It was because of its lavishness that the individuals felt that way. And of course I didn't say most would find it troublesome. A few doesn't mean most. Lavish, excessive, simple, fair, display of wealth, are all subjective terms. So how I view these things isn't necessarily how others should view them as well.
Alan Posted March 20, 2014 Author Posted March 20, 2014 Yes , his words are directed to us. Who reads the BoM? Members of the LDS church. In our pride, dare we excuse ourselves? Moroni says every church has become polluted. That includes the LDS church. I thought that too, until I read chapter 9. There he is addressing non-believers in Christ. They wouldn't normally read the BoM either so this argument is problematic in my view.
Alan Posted March 20, 2014 Author Posted March 20, 2014 Look again at verses 28 and 32.Generally Mormon was referring to other churches, not us, although his warning applies to everyone. So who or what is the holy church of God that is being polluted?
MiserereNobis Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) .. Our churches are pretty dang plain, though. Don't see any risk there at the moment. Not your temples, though ETA: I should have read through the thread, since others made that point, too. Edited March 20, 2014 by MiserereNobis
Senator Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Not your temples, though They are an exception to the rule.
MiserereNobis Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 I, for one, see no problem with beautiful ornate churches, if the point is to inspire one to God. The Good, the True, and the Beautiful all point us to God. Why shouldn't we employ beauty in architecture to raise our senses and to tell us that we are somewhere special, in the presence of something holy and sacred? I think the puritanical way of thinking got it backwards. Sacred places should be special and set apart and not just look like any other building. In addition, sacred architecture uses symbols to teach us. The Gothic cathedrals of the High Middle Ages are an excellent example of this. The entire design of those churches teaches us spiritual truths (well, at least the truths of Catholicism ). Truth and beauty are not mutually exclusive. The are mutually enriching. Here's to beauty! 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 So who or what is the holy church of God that is being polluted?OW? Same sex marriage crowd? There are probably other things too.
Wanderer7 Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Have you seen the Gilbert, Az temple? Holy adornments, batman!The Lord has always asked that His temples be made of the finest material as a sacrifice of His people. If it were any less, He would not dwell there. There is a complete difference between a temple that is used by the members of the church to perform sacred ordinances and worship the Lord, and a church built up by a man and used to attract more people in order to make money.
Alan Posted March 20, 2014 Author Posted March 20, 2014 OW? Same sex marriage crowd? There are probably other things too. This answer doesn't make sense, unless you are saying that the LDS Church is the holy church of God described by Moroni.Is that what you are saying?
Sine Saw Square Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 To those concerned with the value of the adornment of LDS temples- remember other qualities that Moroni identifies in this warning: "people full of pride, wearing costly apparel, ignoring the the poor, loving money and substance, adorning their churches" Is it possible to have nice things, wear costly clothing, and adorn your houses, churches, and temples and still be righteous? I would think yes- as long as you aren't prideful, ignoring the poor, and putting money and substance before God. There's a time and season for everything. Consider this passage from Moroni's perspective and experience. In his day you were either a believer in Christ or you wanted to kill believers in Christ. It would make sense that anyone he saw in a vision of the future claiming belief in Christ he would considered 'the church'.
MiserereNobis Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) The Lord has always asked that His temples be made of the finest material as a sacrifice of His people. If it were any less, He would not dwell there. There is a complete difference between a temple that is used by the members of the church to perform sacred ordinances and worship the Lord, and a church built up by a man and used to attract more people in order to make money. This is exactly why Catholic churches have traditionally been so ornate. A Catholic church is the equivalent to an LDS temple. We believe that Jesus Christ literally dwells in the tabernacle of the church as the Real Presence in the Eucharist. A church is the house of God, literally. Edited March 20, 2014 by MiserereNobis 1
Recommended Posts