Mormon 8 - Is This Us?

[sheilauk]

While I've never been inside an LDS Temple, I've been to many gorgeous cathedrals in Europe and North America and find them awesomely beautiful, faith magnifying and inspirational.

The words of Mormon 8 mentioned in the OP of this thread remind me of passages in the Bible where external trappings and appearances are sometimes brought up for judgement because they're indicative of internal attitudes.

Lavishness and beauty may represent pride, greed, covetousness, etc. And then people who are taken up with these fail to honour the great commandments of Loving God with all our hearts and Loving others as ourselves. But it's also very possible to enjoy exquisite beauty and workmanship that serves to draw us close to God, and inspires us to serve Him and others.

 

 

Maybe this doesn't have anything to do with lavish temples, or not feeding the poor, but is a good read.  It talks about the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law.  Thank goodness Jesus/God came upon the scene to straighten up these "letter of the law" people.  We'd probably all be dead because of all the condemning, stoning etc. for breaking the law.     

 

 

http://ldsviews.blogspot.com/2014/03/keeping-all-commandments.html

 

The intent of one's heart has always been more important to God, Christ reminds us of that.

 

I have been in very many Cathedrals and a few Temples.  Compared to many Cathedrals, our Temples are modest affairs.  What a lot of people don't understand about the great Cathedrals is that many were much more decorated than they are now - with the statues often being painted as were the walls.  Some still are, but not in the UK.  The builders wanted them to be beautiful and perfect - a piece of heaven on earth.  A huge amount of time - centuries - and money has been spent on those Cathedrals and they are beautiful.  They continue to be preserved and built/rebuilt.    They are wonderful places to visit and worship in.  The people who work (and worked) in them and who contribute (contributed) to them have Faith.  Building the Cathedrals was worthwhile to their founders and continues to be worthwhile to the worshippers and visitors.  I certainly think our culture, art and history would be the poorer without them.  I feel the same about the Temples - it is worthwhile to us.  The time, money and care spent on them, and our Temples, is intended to inspire wonder and enhance worship and draw us closer to heaven and God.  Great and beautiful works can be done by the faithful as well as the prideful, we just need to be careful not to become prideful.  And I want the great buildings of a faith to be as near to perfect as is possible to achieve!  I think we need to do both - have beautiful places to worship in and feed the poor and value shouldn't be measured just in dollars and cents.  After all, Judas was chastised by the Master for complaining about the money 'wasted' on oil.

[BlueDreams]

Well, just as long as it is not gaudy lavish....

 

But I'm not following. It was because of its lavishness that the individuals felt that way.

 

And of course I didn't say most would find it troublesome. A few doesn't mean most.

 

Lavish, excessive, simple, fair, display of wealth, are all subjective terms. So how I view these things isn't necessarily how others should view them as well.

 

 

Well, this is now pretty old, But I forgot I posted on this thread. Gaudy assume something showy that borders on tasteless. To me, it's extravagance, just for the sake of extravagance. Also, You wrote "I few" I assumed you meant "few," not "a few." So yeah...that probably didn't help the understanding on my part.

 

For the few that do, I'd probably agree with Nobis....we have a society that has culturally looked down on anything seen as "in excess." We value simplicity and link that with being humble due to a cultural heritage that has strong ties to northeast puritan/protestant values the mixed quite well with pioneer thrift. This also colors what we read in the scripture and what we believe things "should be". So a person who doesn't like the "lavishness" of the temple, probably hones in on the verse Alan mentioned among others about money and disparity etc. Yet misses all the refs of temples being beautifully designed from the best materials. One of our most beautiful/grandiose temples (SLC temple) was built when the vast majority of LDS were just getting established into a desert. Most of their homes were, at best, basic. I doubt most have problems with it, yet the Gilbert is an issue? Temples are monuments of who God is to us. They're offerings. That's why the best is given to them...even when they're smaller (like the Dallas) and more utilitarian (like the Provo I).  

 

A few can fret about it if they want, though their worry could definitely be better spent.

 

With luv,

BD

[The Nehor]

Does it matter how those tithes and offerings are used?  Or just that we pay them?

Well, if they burned my offering as soon as I gave it to them I would make sure to always pay by check.

[theplains]

Look again at verses 28 and 32.

Generally Moroni was referring to other churches, not us, although his warning applies to everyone.

 

"Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me,

and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins".

 

Which churches forgive sins for money?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[MiserereNobis]

"Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me,

and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins".

 

Which churches forgive sins for money?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

I'll ask folks to do some research on Indulgences in the Catholic Church and the abuses (which were contrary to doctrine proclaimed by Popes and at least two Ecumenical Councils) in the late Medieval period before you jump to common American cultural assumptions.  You could start here and here.

 

Thanks!

[The Nehor]

Which churches forgive sins for money?

Many in the LDS church forgive sins because the sinner has money. We are not the only ones.

[Alan]

Many in the LDS church forgive sins because the sinner has money. We are not the only ones.

 

How so?

[The Nehor]

How so?

 

There is a culture within the church that tends to excuse the successful of sins more then the unsuccessful. It is usually not deliberate but it does exist. 

[Tacenda]

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2014/03/21/premium-members-melissa-wei-tsing-inouye/

 

Today We sit down with Melissa Wei-Tsing Inouye.  She is a scholar and has been around the world in many capacities.  She currently lives in Hong Kong.  She shares with us her perspective of the Global Church, how the Church itself doesn't fit a mold, and how each of us might benefit from being aware of such diversity.  We end the podcast talking about malnutrition among LDS children in other countries.  Any Donations made during the Month of April to Mormon Discussion Podcast will be donated to the "Liahona Childrens Foundation" in one sum amount check from "Mormon Discussion Podcast listeners" or you donate directly at the link below.

http://www.liahonachildren.org/#/home

http://mormonscholarstestify.org/3015/melissa-wei-tsing-inouye

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/01/faith-and-intellect

Melissa Wei-Tsing Inouye earned her Ph.D. in Chinese history from Harvard University in 2011. While researching and writing her dissertation, “Miraculous Mundane: The True Jesus Church and Chinese Christianity in the Twentieth Century,” she lived in Xiamen, China, and was an affiliate of the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences from 2009-2010. Her dissertation research project was funded by the U.S. Department of Education’s Foreign Languages and Area Studies Dissertation Fellowship and by the Religious Research Association’s Constant R. Jacquet Research Award. Melissa taught in the history departments of Loyola Marymount University and California State University, Los Angeles, from 2006-2008. In 2003 she graduated magna cum laude in East Asian Studies from Harvard College, delivering the Harvard Oration at the Class Day graduation exercises.

Melissa currently serves as co-director of the Mormon Chapter of the Foundation for Religious Diplomacy. Her journalistic work and creative writing have been published in The Far Eastern Economic Review, the NPR show Here and Now, and various literary journals and blogs. She is the mother of three children. She and her family live in Hong Kong, where she is engaged in additional research in the archives of Hong Kong Baptist University to prepare her dissertation manuscript for publication in book form. jingshangmu@gmail.com.

 

Bold mine.

 

Above is the intro to a Mormon Discussion's podcast, as you can see it mentions that there is malnutrition among LDS children in other countries.  This shouldn't ever happen, where did these children fall through the cracks?  It's probably a good place to donate....and for the church to be aware of if anyone has clout in the church that might be reading.    

Edited March 27, 2014 by Tacenda

[Calm]

....and for the church to be aware of if anyone has clout in the church that might be reading.    

 

I highly doubt that Church leadership is not already aware of this given the humanitarian presence of the Church in the various areas I see mentioned on the front page of Liahona.

 

For example:

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-volunteers-building-homes-typhoon-haiyan-victims

 

The Church has also worked with several other charitable organizations as well as the Philippine government (since December) in a continuing effort to deliver supplies such as food, water, medical supplies, hygiene kits, generators, shelter kits, cooking kits, fishing gear and seeds for planting. The Church is assessing ways to further extend relief efforts to help the Filipino people while continuing to work with the country’s local and national governments.

 

Edited March 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

I have been reading in Mormon chapter 8 recently and it has really concerned me.

This is where Moroni is finishing off his father's work. Mormon is dead and so are pretty well the rest of the Nephites. Moroni sees the day in which the record will come forth and describes the conditions prevelant at that time.

Starting at verse 34 he gets quite specific about things which will come to pass "at the day when these things (the record ie. Book of Mormon) shall come forth among you". He tells us that he is speaking to us as if we were present, and says "I know your doing". He then goes on to describe a people full of pride, wearing costly apparel, ignoring the the poor, loving money and substance, adorning their churches etc. In verse 38 he seems to focus in on the identification of the people he is speaking of. He accuses them of polluting "the holy church of God". Then he goes on to describe the judgements which will follow.

 

My question is, who is he speaking of? Is he describing us, the Latter-day Saints? If not, then what is the holy church of God being spoken of? I am aware of comments made by Ezra Taft Benson many years ago when he appears to interpret it to mean the LDS, and It certainly seems to read that way to me, but I am open to other interpretations.

In a recent address Terryl Givens spoke of a "parallel" church of Christ alongside the institutional Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

This parallel church, according to Givens's model, consists of the body of good-hearted people who believe in Christ in some sense, albeit imperfectly but to the extent that He counts them as His.

 

This passage in Moroni might be referring to this broader parallel church to the extent that the pure doctrines of Christ have been corrupted in Christendom.

 

Just my own ruminations; your mileage may vary.

[Tiki]

In a recent address Terryl Givens spoke of a "parallel" church of Christ alongside the institutional Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

This parallel church, according to Givens's model, consists of the body of good-hearted people who believe in Christ in some sense, albeit imperfectly but to the extent that He counts them as His.

This passage in Moroni might be referring to this broader parallel church to the extent that the pure doctrines of Christ have been corrupted in Christendom.

Just my own ruminations; your mileage may vary.

You don't need Teryl Givens nor his models. You just need the words of Moroni. In Chapter 8 he's talking about the day or time when the record he hid up v. 14 will come forth. It will be in a day ...etc and then he's referring to the Gentiles with their numerous churches and secret combinations and other wickedness. He his not referring to the restored church. You need to read the entire chapter in context, not pull out one verse(34 used by the op) then make or falsely conclude that Moroni is referring to LDS churches or lumping the LDS church with others. Edited March 29, 2014 by Tiki

[Scott Lloyd]

You don't need Teryl Givens nor his models. You just need the words of Moroni. In Chapter 8 he's talking about the day or time when the record he hid up v. 14 will come forth. It will be in a day ...etc and then he's referring to the Gentiles with their numerous churches and secret combinations and other wickedness. He his not referring to the restored church. You need to read the entire chapter in context, not pull out one verse(34 used by the op) then make or falsely conclude that Moroni is referring to LDS churches or lumping the LDS church with others.

I agree he is not referring to the restored Chrch.

[rockpond]

You don't need Teryl Givens nor his models. You just need the words of Moroni. In Chapter 8 he's talking about the day or time when the record he hid up v. 14 will come forth. It will be in a day ...etc and then he's referring to the Gentiles with their numerous churches and secret combinations and other wickedness. He his not referring to the restored church. You need to read the entire chapter in context, not pull out one verse(34 used by the op) then make or falsely conclude that Moroni is referring to LDS churches or lumping the LDS church with others.

 

 

I agree he is not referring to the restored Chrch.

 

From Elder McConkie:

 

"Thus Joseph Smith, of the tribe of Ephraim, the chief and foremost tribe of Israel itself, was the Gentile by whose hand the Book of Mormon came forth, and the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who have the gospel and who are of Israel by blood descent, are the Gentiles who carry salvation to the Lamanites and to the Jews.” -- Millennial Messiah, p 233

 

...and...

 

“We are those Gentiles of whom Nephi speaks.” -- Millennial Messiah, p 238