Wrestling With Polyandry

[Duncan]

I guess I've become so on the fringe of mormonism I hadn't noticed. Thanks for pointing that out. Sometimes it get so hard, I could shoot myself, literally. I wish I'd either never been born LDS, or never been born at all. Sorry for the derail Mods, I'm not going to post anymore on this, it's too close to my heart. And Don, I apologise for even contributing. No I'm not trying to have my own pity party here, though it sounds like it.

I like your posts!

This'll cheer you up!!

Edited June 1, 2013 by Duncan

[Tacenda]

I like your posts!

This'll cheer you up!!

[media=]

You always cheer me up with your posts! So upbeat all the time!

[rpn]

Has anyone mentioned the option that JS for whatever reason simply got it wrong (like he apparently did the whole who is sealed thing, which Wilford Woodruff's revelation corrected?

Of that JS was simply wicked in the instances in question?

Or that the new source is a fraud?

[mfbukowski]

I think I am just sad that so many people have not had significant spiritual experiences to reinforce their faith enough so that some of the messy things in the past of Mormonisim become relatively unimportant. My early experiences were so profound as to cause me to over look those things.

Exactly! When God tells you something it is a little hard to ignore, regardless of others interpretations of what might have happened

[ERayR]

Exactly! When God tells you something it is a little hard to ignore, regardless of others interpretations of what might have happened

So many try so hard to condemn irrelevancies.

[mfbukowski]

I am in complete agreement with this however this is considered an apostate view. Were not allowed to talk about the imperfections of Joseph or any of the other latter day prophets as it is considered "evil speaking of the Lords annointed" but we can discuss and learn from the failings of an old testament prophet and king such as King David. I have no problem with the restoration but I have extreme problems with some of the things Joseph did later in life and I firmly believe these things are the reason the Lord did not allow Joseph to continue leading the church but instead removed him. If the Church would repudiate the "14 points for following the Prophet" speech and quit quoting from it and reiterating points from it in General Conference my respect for church leaders would significantly increase.

Obedience in following the prophet should not be confused with gaining one's own testimony of the question of whether or not the current prophet is indeed "God's annointed".

Those are two different questions, and we need to keep the distinction clear in our minds. We are agents who give obedience willingly based on testimony

If (notice the IF!) there was a fallen prophet, then he would not be among the Lord's annointed.

[K-2]

Emma wanted [William] Law for a spiritual husband,†and because Joseph “had so many spiritual wives, she thought it but fair that she would at least have one man spiritually sealed up to her and that she wanted Law, because he was such a ‘sweet little man.’â€

Although there is nothing to suggest that Law and Emma were more to each other than friends, Law later confirmed that Joseph “offered to furnish his wife Emma with a substitute for him, by way of compensation for his neglect of her, on condition that she would forever stop her opposition to polygamy and permit him to enjoy his young wives in peace and keep some of them in his house and to be well treated, etc.†(Salt Lake Tribune, 3 July 1887.)http://mormonheretic...ings-for-women/

.

My understanding is that Law later said that this was not true in an interview. He said something like that everyone knew that he and his wife were strongly opposed to polygamy, so it couldn't be true. It's in one of the history volumes of Joseph Smith's Polygamy by Hales. Too busy to look up the page number now.

[thesometimesaint]

If any of your ancestors came down through the Abraham line. Then you are a fruit of polygamy.

[bcuzbcuz]

The polygamy and polyandry of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (were there others? other polyanderists, I mean) was never a problem while I was a TBM. It was one of those issues I didn't have to deal with myself and never even contemplated for myself, so it got pushed to a back burner. Now that I stand outside, looking in, I'm disgusted by the actions and behaviors of the so-called anointed. I find no more justification for their actions than I have for the TV evangelists like Swaggart and Bakker who were caught with their pants down, literally.

Polygamy is wrong and polyandry, well, what I really think can't be printed here.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have never understood why this is such a big deal.

Let's look at a worst case scenario and assume that Joseph was therefore a fallen prophet at this closing period of his life.

How does that negate everything else he did?

If Thomas Jefferson was a philanderer, does that diminish the importance or significance of the Declaration of Independence?

Did David's final sins destroy the significance of all that went before including the psalms?

I think we just don't have enough information...so I do not believe he was a fallen Prophet, but just as all men are...complicated. We are talking of someone who sealed his testimony with his blood, quote from our own scripture. Who had John Taylor sing a "Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief", while he read the scriptures...does not sound like a fallen Prophet, and it pains me that so many think, well lets just jettison the man because we don't get him so our PR will improve. Also David is a bad example to compare to Joseph, but I assure you they were both men after God's own heart. I know it is not fashionable, even on pro-Mormon sites, but I love the man! Thank God for him...many who claim to have a strong testimony, will met him one day, know why certain things were done and weep that we sought to belittle him to be more liked. I marveled at the author of this thread and his homecoming to the Church, how well he was treated...now this? These are the things "I" struggle with! I can assure you CARMella, Russ B, Arron Saft or James Banta are making good use of this on CARM. Edited June 1, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[thesometimesaint]

The polygamy and polyandry of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (were there others? other polyanderists, I mean) was never a problem while I was a TBM. It was one of those issues I didn't have to deal with myself and never even contemplated for myself, so it got pushed to a back burner. Now that I stand outside, looking in, I'm disgusted by the actions and behaviors of the so-called anointed. I find no more justification for their actions than I have for the TV evangelists like Swaggart and Bakker who were caught with their pants down, literally.

Polygamy is wrong and polyandry, well, what I really think can't be printed here.

The Bible is replete with polygamy. Your modern western cultural views not withstanding.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The polygamy and polyandry of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (were there others? other polyanderists, I mean) was never a problem while I was a TBM. It was one of those issues I didn't have to deal with myself and never even contemplated for myself, so it got pushed to a back burner. Now that I stand outside, looking in, I'm disgusted by the actions and behaviors of the so-called anointed. I find no more justification for their actions than I have for the TV evangelists like Swaggart and Bakker who were caught with their pants down, literally.

Polygamy is wrong and polyandry, well, what I really think can't be printed here.

So does this mean you are disgusted with all God's anointed in the OT, or is just our leaders, after all it is the fashionable thing to do and still believe in God. Or are you now an atheist and believe in nothing. You know according to scripture every woman a man ever made love to is his wife. Thankfully I have only "known" one woman in my 56 years, or do you discount Christ's words to the woman at the well? It is so great that so many can compartmentalize to survive the difficult questions of like. I am thankful for Christ, descendant of polygamist. In fact I would venture to say half the world is...just disgusting huh?

[bcuzbcuz]

The Bible is replete with polygamy. Your modern western cultural views not withstanding.

I doubt my views are merely limted to modern western cultures, if the cultural norms for societies from around the world are to be scrutinized. Bible replete with polygamy? CFR.

[DonBradley]

The source for Law supposedly being offered to Emma as a husband is the utterly unreliable Joseph Jackson. When Law himself was asked about this, in a later interview, he said that no offer of the kind had ever been mentioned to him.

It's a shame if Grant Palmer would repeat Joseph Jackson's tale without Law's correction.

Don

[DonBradley]

It seems to me that the two verses go together. If anything, it would seem that it puts Joseph's offer to Emma beyond the realm of mere rumor, as I originally thought it was.

Yes, the question of whether William Law was offered to Emma is separate from the question of whether some such offer was made. I have a long-term project on D&C 132 in which I try to determine what the nature of the "offer" referred to was.

Don

[bcuzbcuz]

I think that the critics make it a big deal and when they do, they influence the thoughts and feelings of the seeking members. Critics tend to look from the outside in on this one and not from inside out. And so, they go with the cheating spouse line. And then, they can judge rather harshly and use convincing sentences to have the seeking member feel cheated that joseph could have done this.

How right you are. Is there any way you can look at the actual history as recorded and not see it as a cheating spouse?

[DonBradley]

Emma wanted [William] Law for a spiritual husband,†and because Joseph “had so many spiritual wives, she thought it but fair that she would at least have one man spiritually sealed up to her and that she wanted Law, because he was such a ‘sweet little man.’â€

Although there is nothing to suggest that Law and Emma were more to each other than friends, Law later confirmed that Joseph “offered to furnish his wife Emma with a substitute for him, by way of compensation for his neglect of her, on condition that she would forever stop her opposition to polygamy and permit him to enjoy his young wives in peace and keep some of them in his house and to be well treated, etc.†(Salt Lake Tribune, 3 July 1887.)http://mormonheretic...ings-for-women/

What Law actually stated is that Joseph had never spoken to him at all about swapping spouses, though Law added that he "believed" Joseph had offered to furnish Emma another man as a "substitute."

Don

[bcuzbcuz]

So does this mean you are disgusted with all God's anointed in the OT, or is just our leaders, after all it is the fashionable thing to do and still believe in God. Or are you now an atheist and believe in nothing. You know according to scripture every woman a man ever made love to is his wife. Thankfully I have only "known" one woman in my 56 years, or do you discount Christ's words to the woman at the well? It is so great that so many can compartmentalize to survive the difficult questions of like. I am thankful for Christ, descendant of polygamist. In fact I would venture to say half the world is...just disgusting huh?

I do not find the any problem with the sixth of the ten commandments, "Thou shalt not commit adultery", Nor can I find any fault with the additional scripture that says "But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. in Matthew 5: 27-28. Nor do I find fault with the 9th commandment, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife"

So if you're going to pick and choose which scriptures you choose to follow, I state my preferences. Which ones you choose are up to you and your mate to decide upon.....as long as you tell your spouse your intentions.

[DonBradley]

This was the "deal breaker" for my pursuit of a testimony in the LDS faith, and Christianity by default. I got no further than the introduction of Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness", and I was already convinced by that concise overview of Joseph Smith's sexuality. Even one woman would be enough to invalidate JS as a "prophet" in the biblical sense, or the BoM sense by association.

I'm confused. There are biblical prophets (e.g., Abraham, Moses, Hosea, and others) who were polygamists; so, clearly, one can practice polygamy and be a prophet "in the biblical sense."

When you refer to "even one woman," do you mean if Joseph Smith had a polyandrous sexual relationship with even one woman he couldn't be a prophet?

Don

[DonBradley]

Thank you to those who've offered their thoughts on they would deal with it if Joseph Smith practiced sexual polyandry.

Now I have--I think--an even tougher question: How would you explain it to others, particularly non-members, if clear evidence for this were put out, and they learned about it?

I have a much easier time seeing how I'd deal with this issue personally than I do seeing how I would help a member of tender faith or a non-member deal with it.

Don

[Senator]

Thank you to those who've offered their thoughts on they would deal with it if Joseph Smith practiced sexual polyandry.

Now I have--I think--an even tougher question: How would you explain it to others, particularly non-members, if clear evidence for this were put out, and they learned about it?

I have a much easier time seeing how I'd deal with this issue personally than I do seeing how I would help a member of tender faith or a non-member deal with it.

Don

Just tell em it's not that big a deal. At least that's what I've been told......

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I doubt my views are merely limted to modern western cultures, if the cultural norms for societies from around the world are to be scrutinized. Bible replete with polygamy? CFR.

You say you were a Mormon and are asking for a CFR on Bible polygamy. Let me help...Genesis 1 though Malachi 4: 5.

[Garden Girl]

I doubt my views are merely limted to modern western cultures, if the cultural norms for societies from around the world are to be scrutinized. Bible replete with polygamy? CFR.

Just where do you think God's chosen people came from...

Read about Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel... his four wives who gave him a total among them of 12 sons and one daughter... the 12 going on to become the 12 tribes of Israel.

Leah: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, and daughter Dina

Rachel: Joseph, Benjamin (the last child to be born)

Bilhah: Dan, Naphtali

Zilpah: Gad, Asher

GG

Edited June 1, 2013 by Garden Girl

[DonBradley]

To be frank, Joseph Smith's polyandry is one of the reasons why nearly eight years ago I left the Church. I put it in my exit letter when I had my name removed from the Church's membership records. When (as most of you know about) I returned to the Church some five years later, I had to come to terms with the issue, at least somewhat.

I still find it one of the more difficult issues in early Church history. Even without Joseph's polyandrous sealings including sexuality, I find it disturbing to think of a man having another man's wife sealed to him for eternity. It's possible this was the right thing to do under the circumstances, and I can certainly see possible reasons that Joseph may have thought he should do this. But I think it's a mistake to dismiss it as simply unproblematic. If a member engaged in similar behavior today, they would be excoriated, or worse, and the sealings would be cancelled. The whole thing is distressing.

While I don't know fully what to make of Joseph Smith's polyandrous sealings, I feel completely confident that he made real errors in how he put polygamy into practice. Why? Because revelation to Joseph Smith says so!

Joseph's revelation on polygamy, given in the context of his conflict with Emma over the rightness of his behavior, mentions his "sins" and "transgressions" and also his "trespasses against" Emma (D&C 132:50,56,60). To say that Joseph practiced plural marriage perfectly, with no moral errors and no wrongs with respect to Emma, is thus not to defend his revelation on the subject, but to deny it. The revelation justifies Joseph's polygamous marrying only in a general way. While it affirms that he was commanded to take multiple wives, it also indicates that he erred in some of how he did it, that he needed to make an "offering" for these transgressions (vs. 60), and that he needed to be--and was--forgiven for these wrongs.

If God can both acknowledge that Joseph made errors and forgive them, then we are in the best possible company in doing the same.

Don

Edited June 1, 2013 by DonBradley

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Thank you to those who've offered their thoughts on they would deal with it if Joseph Smith practiced sexual polyandry.

Now I have--I think--an even tougher question: How would you explain it to others, particularly non-members, if clear evidence for this were put out, and they learned about it?

I have a much easier time seeing how I'd deal with this issue personally than I do seeing how I would help a member of tender faith or a non-member deal with it.

Don

I put in the context of the same behaviors through the Bible, Never once does God object, except in the BoM...deal with that oddity. I can tell you this Joseph knew in the 1830's and fought it as long as he could, Brigham Young wanted to die when told to live the principle of polygamy. Emma knew about it and when she died some 34 years after Joseph and though remarried, she died saying, Joseph I am coming to you. It has been my experience that we just don't have enough information to figure this all out, be it Joseph or Jacob (Israel) Abraham or anyone's marriage or marriages in the case of these men, but they all introduced to God after God chose them. I am glad I am not their judge, my western heritage of one man one woman would require to consign them all to hell. But we know from scripture Abraham is by whom we all have promise. He turned on wife and child out inTo the desert to die like dogs, yet Paul teaches that when we except Christ, we become the "seed of Abraham". To reject Joseph would by extension require us to reject all scripture and God and become a law unto ourselves. Now that is a world none of us would want to live in.