Tacenda Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) I think it is more about visibility. Women leaders being seen more, being more of a visible presence both to outsiders and as rolemodels for women in the Church, especially the youth. People want to be able to relate to their leaders, not all women relate well to men.This in a nutshell, thanks to the pro, you! We need a balance and many women can fill that need.ETA: I always run out of posts because I'm on "limited" therefore the need to edit, just wanted to make a comment that I think the 1st session of conference went really well...here's a quote from someone I don't know but they say it well...."Trying to put my finger on what made today different --in addition to Sister Steven's prayer. There seemed to be more energy and confidence from the speakers. There was a wide variety of topics including: addiction, repentance, the priesthood, a women's role in the family and society, the life and atonement of Jesus Christ, and so on. So glad I didn't have to work today!"*It had to be because women prayed in conference! Edited April 6, 2013 by Tacenda
Lightbearer Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 Glad all the feminists are thrilled... actually before it was mentioned on this site I had never even thought of it. All it means is that now they are not off the hook for getting called on out of the blue to pray in conference! I think the first time a woman prayed in sacrament it was not any great earthshaking event... in fact I remember my mom hated having to give a prayer in sacrament!But as already stated the anit-men crowd will not be satisfied until they have a female apostle! Good luck with that. I would suggest reviewing some of the talks given in this session... especially the part about neither men or women can usurp either's calling... we need each other and cannot be exalted alone, Satan is the instigator of the "battle between the sexes" so sisters it looks like you are stuck with us (and us with you...of course I would not have it any other way!) 1
Calm Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 But as already stated the anit-men crowdOne can be "pro-women" without being "anti-men". I hope you are not including all those who are concerned about women's roles in the faith as "anti-men" but only a very, very small part of them...and probably much smaller than the general population. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 lol.Yes, a woman has yet to say things like "the Alpha and Omega, even the Great I Am, the Stone of Israel, even Jesus the Christ. Amen." I've always wondered why "even" would be put in there like that. We'll know we've really arrived when the closing-prayer-sayer uses all of those plus "even The Big Kahuna"! (Sorry. Couldn't resist.)
why me Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 You know.. it might be -- maybe, a bit like when you are actually in the presence of the Tabernacle Choir. I do not really enjoy their music when I am listening on radio or TV, but in the Tabernacle... it is very very moving.Maybe when you get up on that stand in that big building to pray... maybe it hits you differently.I think that there is more to it. The men usually pray in a steady voice that does not sound nervous. I do think that she was nervous being the first woman and i think that the stress got her voice. But she said a nice prayer that was a little short but good. It will be wonderful that more women will now pray at conference. I predict that it will be equal soon between men and women: both will say either the opening or closing prayer at all conferences. .
Kenngo1969 Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 You know.. it might be -- maybe, a bit like when you are actually in the presence of the Tabernacle Choir. I do not really enjoy their music when I am listening on radio or TV, but in the Tabernacle... it is very very moving.Maybe when you get up on that stand in that big building to pray... maybe it hits you differently.HiJolly and his fellow performers I'll never be, but I was part of a multistake choir which sung at a Regional Conference last September ... There's singing, and then there's singing in a place like that! It was quite the experience.
bluebell Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 I think that there is more to it. The men usually pray in a steady voice that does not sound nervous. I do think that she was nervous being the first woman and i think that the stress got her voice. But she said a nice prayer that was a little short but good. It will be wonderful that more women will now pray at conference. I predict that it will be equal soon between men and women: both will say either the opening or closing prayer at all conferences. .I honestly didn't notice her voice sounding nervous at all. And I don't see how it was a little short. We've been told over and over that prayers should be too the point and her's certainly was. What did she leave out tgat would have made it the appropriate length?
Calm Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) I think that there is more to it. The men usually pray in a steady voice that does not sound nervous. I do think that she was nervous being the first woman and i think that the stress got her voice. But she said a nice prayer that was a little short but good.I've heard plenty of nervous men in conference, just listen to those who have just been called who are asked to give talks. However, in general the lower the voice, the less nervous it tends to sound since nervousness is often associated with higher pitch (think squeaky voices of young men when talking to young ladies as portrayed in the media).I feel like doing a CFR on the length of the prayer requiring why me to time at least a dozen or so the recent prayers to compare hers to...but I won't be mean. Perhaps it seemed short because people were paying more attention to it rather than letting their minds wander.... Edited April 6, 2013 by calmoriah
Freedom Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 just as the choir sang their closing number my computer froze and was making an outrageously loud noise so I had to shut it off. by the time I got the machine up and running again the conference was done. Bummer. I missed the most historical event at conference since Hunter fall down. I have heard it said that it is doctrinal to have priesthood holders say prayers in meetings. Does anybody know the source for this teaching?
Calm Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 I have heard it said that it is doctrinal to have priesthood holders say prayers in meetings. Does anybody know the source for this teaching?The idea comes from the idea that priesthood holders are supposed to give opening prayers in meetings that are priesthood meetings, for awhile this was taught to mean 'run by the priesthood' which meant that only priesthood holders could give opening prayers in Sacrament Meeting...or only closing prayers depending on how one interpreted giving the seal of priesthood approval to a meeting.I can't remember any doctrinal support, just support from previous CHI policies that were changed pretty quickly but somehow found a firm foothold even in that brief time so that even now some leaders are still teaching that even while the CHI contradicts that teaching.
WmLaw Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 One can be "pro-women" without being "anti-men". I hope you are not including all those who are concerned about women's roles in the faith as "anti-men" but only a very, very small part of them...and probably much smaller than the general population.Amen. You beat me to saying that exact thing. 1
Deborah Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 The site on FB was full of women talking about how being able to let women pray in GC would validate them. Many of them expressed that they felt inferior and something like this would make them feel better. This is what got me about the petitions, is that they seemed to need it as an indication they were important. I don't even begin to understand that and based on some of the comments those women made it's no wonder women aren't taken seriously in many circles.I've been looking at the Women getting ordained site and what I found most interesting about this session was the talks on Priesthood emphasizing the different roles of men and women. Every conference it seems like they are aware what issues are prominent and address them. I didn't even realize a woman was giving a prayer until half way through it. I honestly didn't think it was a big deal and I'm glad I'm not in a position where I'd have to do it. 2
why me Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) I feel like doing a CFR on the length of the prayer requiring why me to time at least a dozen or so the recent prayers to compare hers to...but I won't be mean. Perhaps it seemed short because people were paying more attention to it rather than letting their minds wander.... Hilarious!Her prayer was actually much shorter than the opening prayer. So, I imagine we will still be stuck just being annoyed at the men's prayers. This is from peppermint patty on the 'They Did It' thread. I am going by her and her personal observation. See page one. Edited April 6, 2013 by why me
mfbukowski Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 lol.Yes, a woman has yet to say things like "the Alpha and Omega, even the Great I Am, the Stone of Israel, even Jesus the Christ. Amen." I've always wondered why "even" would be put in there like that. Utahism.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 6, 2013 Author Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) Utahism.Bull! It's no more a "Utahism" than any of countless other cultural quirks among the membership.Edited to add:Actually, use of the word "even" as something of a synonym for "that is" is characteristic of President Monson's public discourse. I think if you do a word search on his sermons, you'll find that to be the case -- almost as much as the frequent use of the passive voice ("a blessing was given," "tears were shed," "hearts were touched," that sort of thing). Edited April 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd
rongo Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 From Orson Scott Card's "Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary:" ------prayer, public For most Saints, public prayer means acting as the voice for a whole congregation in speaking to the Lord. To some, however, it is a difficult and sophisticated art form, a four-part speech in which the speaker is perpetually confused about whether he is talking to the congregation or to God. For those who wish to become a master of this art and impress their friends, the parts of the prayer are: 1. Calling upon God. Little children call him Heavenly Father. Grown-ups generally call him Our Father in Heaven. People who know what's what, however, know that the Lord only hears prayers if he is addressed loudly, firmly, and by elaborate titles. 2. Thanking. This is the part where the person who really knows how to pray usually congratulates the congregation for being better than nonmembers and the sinners who stayed home, and praises the Lord for recognizing their superior virtue by making them rich enough to build such a fancy meetinghouse. 3. Asking. In the closing prayer, or benediction, this is the part where the really talented speaker will repeat the main points of every single talk given in the meeting and add his comments to them as he asks the Lord to help the congregation remember what they learned. In an opening prayer, or invocation, this is the speaker's opportunity to inform the Lord of where the world needs fixing up and to tell the congregation what sins they ought to repent of. 4. Closing. The best prayers are not given in the mere name of Jesus Christ; they are given with as many titles as the speaker can muster.------- Prayerspeak A highly elevated language used in Mormon prayers. It consists of a limited repertoire of incantatory phrases, a mystical vocabulary of long or archaic words that are rarely understood by anyone, and a grammar built around the misuse of the second person singular pronoun. 1. Incantatory phrases can range from a few words, like "the sick and afflicted” and the all-purpose "bless that... and we thank thee for;" to whole sentences, like, "Bless those who aren't here this time that they may come next time"; "Bless us with all those blessings of which which we stand in need of"; and "We thank thee for this beautiful Sabbath day in which we have to come and worship thee." These serve the function of surrounding the congregation with familiar sounds, letting them feel at home and comfortable in the meeting. (See also "Let a portion of thy Spirit be with us.") 2. The mystical vocabulary consists of frequently repeated words like which, preserve, gracious, endeavor, numberless, and bounteous. Especially daring speakers even venture to use the really potent words: wast, wouldst, shalt, hath, hast, and art, to name a few. These words all derive from the English language, but they have lost all meaning. Rather, they are used to impart an aura of spirituality and exaltation to the prayer, and, when used, someone fluent in Prayerspeak, can make a perfectly common public prayer into an ecstatic musical experience. 3. The second person pronoun is usually used to refer to God, but where it once suggested intimacy and love, it now suggests the utmost distance and formality. Almost no one uses the nominative thou as it is used in English, however, and thee as a nominative sounds Quakerish. The most common solutions are either to mix up yous and thees and yours and thys willy-nilly, or to use thy as an all-purpose second-person: "We are grateful that thy has permitted us to be members of thy Church, and we endeavor to serve thy to the best of our ability."
Scott Lloyd Posted April 6, 2013 Author Posted April 6, 2013 I've heard plenty of nervous men in conference, just listen to those who have just been called who are asked to give talks. However, in general the lower the voice, the less nervous it tends to sound since nervousness is often associated with higher pitch (think squeaky voices of young men when talking to young ladies as portrayed in the media).I feel like doing a CFR on the length of the prayer requiring why me to time at least a dozen or so the recent prayers to compare hers to...but I won't be mean. Perhaps it seemed short because people were paying more attention to it rather than letting their minds wander.... I just noticed that Brother Osguthorpe's (Sunday School general president) opening prayer was quite concise.
rongo Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 I think the next step for petitioners will be to complain that the ratio of men to women pray-ers in conference is not 1:1 3
CASteinman Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) I talked to my wife about a woman offering the benediction for the General Conference. Apparently she did not even really notice. I told her that some activist women had sponsored a silent protest to get the brethren to have women pray in General Conference. Her reply was pretty sharp. She suggested that if the women didn't like the Church they could leave it. I think it was the silent protest that got her a bit ticked off. And she said this: "The prophet should not be listening to me, nor to them -- and that is the way it should be, I do not need to have his ear and he needs to be listening to God.".My wife -- who I have always considered to be an unyielding feminist -- found it insulting that the women were taken up by these things, that these issues made women look weak and watery. I know from my years with her that any appearance or insinuation of weakness does bug her -- which has led her to do some remarkable things.I talked with her about women getting the Priesthood. She said that she didn't have a problem with that -- that the Church is a body of continual revelation and if the Prophet had a revelation on that, it would be just fine. And it would also be just fine if that never happened. Its not relevant to her salvation at all. And she added -- the Priesthood has to deal with mechanics and nuts and bolts of the Church. The men are suited for that. But the Relief Society does the higher more spiritual things of compassionate service. And...anyone who knows anything about how things work in a ward knows that the Relief Society is the power organization -- way way out performing the priesthood.I felt bad to admit she was right, but I think she is. From what I can tell this is almost universally acknowledged in the Church. On a separate but related note she told me a story that I have to look up now. Apparently there was a woman who won the Nobel Prize as a scientist who died. Although she was such a competent and renowned scientist, she felt her greatest duty and accomplishment was in her home and over the course of her life she followed her husband as he went between his jobs. She cared for him and her sons and without any grudge enjoyed her role as wife and mother.When she died, her son wrote her obituary and mentioned how she cooked the best --- something. Ravioli maybe. Well, I know that if I were doing a eulogy to my mom and mentioned her cooking, which is phenomenal by the way, I would not be thinking of a particular meal but all the years of heartfelt dedicated service. Priceless time and service.,But apparently some people were incensed that her scientific career was given short shrift by her son -- and were up in arms about it. So the eulogy got rewritten.Well, that's how I heard it. I have to look it up to find out the actual details. Edited April 6, 2013 by CASteinman 2
CASteinman Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 I talked with my oldest daughter (she is full grown) about the issues of the women giving prayer in conference. She said it was fine -- whoever they want to give the prayer is fine. But she thought if they did it because of outside pressure that was not good. I pointed out that they may have assigned her to pray months ago and she hoped that was true -- but thought it would be a good idea to have moved the prayer to next conference so as not to be seen as giving in to protests. She thought that was unseemly.I asked her about women being ordained. Her first comment was "I just do not get what is the problem with men and women having different roles". She said that if the prophet got a revelation, that would be fine but that she doesn't see why he would get one -- since it is utterly unnecessary. She can't see any benefit in it at all. 2
BCSpace Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 Sister Jean Stevens, first counselor in the Primary general presidency, is the first woman ever to give a prayer in general conference.If I were them, I would have waited until the closing prayer of the last session so as to force those with an ax to grind on this issue to have to pay attention to what they really should have been listening to. 2
CASteinman Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 I talked with my youngest daughter (she is also full grown) about the woman giving the prayer. She said she did not notice it but it really did not matter. She said "Its not like we are making a big progressive movement forward here." (she laughed). She thought it was fine if women give the prayer and also fine if they don't. She mentioned the silent pants protest back in January. Neither my wife nor my older daughter had been aware of that, but my younger daughter was. really aware and well versed. She said that she read a letter describing how they were unhappy about a lot of things and were scheduling the protest. She said that to her eye it looked like a lot of insignificant things --- "but" she said, "some people are very sensitive". Then she added, "I am glad that they are having some of their sadness taken away and that they feel they are listened to". We then talked about ordination of women. She said it was very obvious to her that there is a divinity about men and a divinity about women and that those are different things. and that men and women are fitted and suited to different roles in life. (Note, this is a woman, with no current plans or prospects of marriage who is just about to graduate in a professional field and go into an industry dominated by men -- and to my concern -- often wicked men.). She didn't seem to think it mattered very much either way, but she also did not see any need for it, just as my other daughter didn't. 1
Stargazer Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) I am curious -- how many people here view giving an opening or closing prayer as some sort of honor or distinction or something like that?I don't know if I would view it as an honor or distinction. But there is a tendency in me to regard it as a welcome opportunity to be of service in a small way. I love being of service. In fact, as I write this, Elder Scott is giving a talk in Conference about the power of being of service. This is why I always thank the person who asks me to give the invocation or benediction.I think it is a nifty thing that sisters will now have this opportunity as well, in General Conference. But after all is said and done, isn't it of far greater moment that sisters speak in General Conference? And they've been doing this for quite a few years now. Seems in the end to be much ado about not a lot. Edited April 6, 2013 by Stargazer
Stone holm Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 Public prayer as performance art has been with us for generations. I'm hoping we are trending away from it somewhat.Oh but its a big issue don't you know, why they don't allow teachers to lead public prayer in public schools...why its gonna be the end of the world as we know it... 1
CASteinman Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 I don't know if I would view it as an honor or distinction. But there is a tendency in me to regard it as a welcome opportunity to be of service in a small way. I love being of service. In fact, as I write this, Elder Scott is giving a talk in Conference about the power of being of service. This is why I always thank the person who asks me to give the invocation or benediction.I think it is a nifty thing that sisters will now have this opportunity as well, in General Conference. But after all is said and done, isn't it of far greater moment that sisters speak in General Conference? And they've been doing this for quite a few years now. Seems in the end to be much ado about not a lot.Thank you
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