They Did It!

[bluebell]

Now an invocation as well!

At least this should clue in those few holdovers that still think women aren't allowed to open sacrament meetings.

[rongo]

Closing prayer, opening prayer. I think "sacrament prayer" is the next one on the checklist . . .

[Bikeemikey]

Closing prayer, opening prayer. I think "sacrament prayer" is the next one on the checklist . . .

Funny.

[mercyngrace]

Now an invocation as well!

At least this should clue in those few holdovers that still think women aren't allowed to open sacrament meetings.

Like my dad...

J/K dad. You've come a long way, baby!

[Stone holm]

Traditions have this strange way of extending beyond their useful life because inertia when it comes to change is a very powerful force. Rupert Sheldrake once argued that the primal law of physics was habit. He argued that all physical laws came into being because of the maxim that once things happen one way once they tend to always happen that way under the exact same circumstances. So we tend to approach traditions, especially longstanding ones as doctrine.

[WmLaw]

Now an invocation as well!

At least this should clue in those few holdovers that still think women aren't allowed to open sacrament meetings.

I've heard of this practice, but haven't noticed it myself. However, in my ward, the SM's are almost always opened by the Sisters and closed by the Brothers.

[mercyngrace]

I've heard of this practice, but haven't noticed it myself. However, in my ward, the SM's are almost always opened by the Sisters and closed by the Brothers.

My dad was a bishop in the 70s, He remembers being taught that men were to open sacrament meeting because there was an ordinance performed making it a priesthood function. I think it's a vestige of that time and the line of reasoning has long since been abandoned (other than in the minds of a few who never got the Kimball memo).

[bluebell]

I've heard of this practice, but haven't noticed it myself. However, in my ward, the SM's are almost always opened by the Sisters and closed by the Brothers.

There was a small period of time where such was the case because of church leadership mandate. (The story as i understand it is that it came to pass due to a misunderstanding of something one of the prophets said).

It didn't last long though. However, there have been numerous stories of older members, believing the prohibition to still be in place, who won't ask sisters to pray, or won't ask them to open meetings.

Some traditions, even minor, die slowly under certain circumstances.

[Duncan]

Our ward has women praying for both prayers, I think it's just who shows up on time gets asked!

[PoisonWell]

I agree with why me. Applying the emotion-laden term of "ban" or labeling it as misogyny is overwrought hyperbole,

It really isn't hyperbole. This example is pretty much the definition of those two words.

Also, you're taking my use of the word mysogyny out of context.

[urroner]

It really isn't hyperbole. This example is pretty much the definition of those two words.

Also, you're taking my use of the word mysogyny out of context.

So you say your use of the word "mysogyny" was taken out of context. Would you like to explain further?

BTW, here is the dictionary definition of mysogyny: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny) I didn't see any other definition in several online dictionaries.

By the casual use of the word mysogyny, it appears to me that you are accusing the Church and its members of hating women.

I think the use of that word in this thread is meant for inflammatory purposes, kind of like the term racist is used in the political environment. It's meant to distract from a honest conversation for any number of reasons.

[PoisonWell]

So you say your use of the word "mysogyny" was taken out of context. Would you like to explain further?

BTW, here is the dictionary definition of mysogyny: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. (http://dictionary.re...browse/misogyny) I didn't see any other definition in several online dictionaries.

By the casual use of the word mysogyny, it appears to me that you are accusing the Church and its members of hating women.

I think the use of that word in this thread is meant for inflammatory purposes, kind of like the term racist is used in the political environment. It's meant to distract from a honest conversation for any number of reasons.

Yes, you've taken me completely out of context. If you'd like to read through this thread to actually find the context, then you can. It's fairly obvious how I meant it, but since you obviously don't care to find the context yourself, literally a few clicks away, it really isn't worth my time to clarify.

Also, mysogyny can mean distrusting or disliking women. That was what I meant in the context I used it in.

[PoisonWell]

These are not totally cultural i think. For example.. meetings segregated by age -- isn't that more a matter of development that crosses all cultures?

Yeah, meetings segregated by age and even gender seem to just help focus and learning, so that has a practical reason.

I came into this thread looking to see if anyone could present plausible reasons for not having women do the prayer, and now I'm being accosted for using the word misogyny to make a point lol

[CASteinman]

I came into this thread looking to see if anyone could present plausible reasons for not having women do the prayer, and now I'm being accosted for using the word misogyny to make a point lol

Well, I don't know about why you are being accused -- have not read that yet, but its a very strange question you are asking. Why would you ask it?

Edited April 8, 2013 by CASteinman

[CV75]

I came into this thread looking to see if anyone could present plausible reasons for not having women do the prayer,

According to a Deseret News article, it was simply that practices changes over the years to favor returned mission presidents at one point, visiting stake presidents at another, newly called Seventy at another, and so on.

As with most complaints (and I'm not saying this is what you are doing) about the Church changing past practices, I am reminded of the story of a man rescued in the desert, so dehydrated that all he could say was, "I'm so thirsy, I'm so thirsty, I'm so thirsty..." and once revived, he continued to complain, "I was so thirsy, I was so thirsty, I was so thirsty..."

[PoisonWell]

Well, I don't know about that, but its a very strange question. Why would you ask it?

Why would I ask why women weren't allowed to pray? Because I'm curious, and I'd like to not think that they weren't allowed to pray because of cultural prejudices.

[urroner]

Yes, you've taken me completely out of context. If you'd like to read through this thread to actually find the context, then you can. It's fairly obvious how I meant it, but since you obviously don't care to find the context yourself, literally a few clicks away, it really isn't worth my time to clarify.

Also, mysogyny can mean distrusting or disliking women. That was what I meant in the context I used it in.

There are a lot of posts, at the moment it's 162 posts, in this thread. Could you at least point out where I will be able to locate the correct context of your post? What seems to be obvious is that you don't care that much to discuss. It seems to me that you'd rather pontificate and also read my mind as to why I do things, like I'm doing to you right now.

So, are you stating the Church and its members distrust or dislike women.

[PoisonWell]

As with most complaints (and I'm not saying this is what you are doing) about the Church changing past practices, I am reminded of the story of a man rescued in the desert, so dehydrated that all he could say was, "I'm so thirsy, I'm so thirsty, I'm so thirsty..." and once revived, he continued to complain, "I was so thirsy, I was so thirsty, I was so thirsty..."

Well, when the church claims modern day divine revelation, people like to think that it's perfect. When the church changes itself that opens doors for all kinds of cognitive dissonance.

Your explanation seems plausible enough, though.

[PoisonWell]

So, are you stating the Church and its members distrust or dislike women.

Nope.

I'll explain the context, I apologize for not doing so before, I didn't notice how large this thread had gotten and as far as I can tell my post was deleted because I can't search for it.

Someone was saying that the ban was just a cultural thing, and I said that I hoped it wasn't a misogynist cultural issue. Or something like that, I wish I could find the post, but that's how it went as far as I remember.

[Stargazer]

Well, when the church claims modern day divine revelation, people like to think that it's perfect. When the church changes itself that opens doors for all kinds of cognitive dissonance.

Your explanation seems plausible enough, though.

As to the plausibility, I definitely remember a period when they seemed to be making a deliberate point of asking returned mission presidents to give the prayers. It was in 1975, when my returned mission president gave the closing prayer at one session of conference.

As to the wording of your earlier comment about women being "not allowed" to give the prayers, I'm going to suggest that this particular word choice is a kind of "well poisoning". Ahem. Well, it's more question-loading, but I could not stop myself trying to play to your user name. Sorry!

Anyway, your word choice is more a bit like one of those loaded questions, like "Have you stopped beating your wife". As if women had been attempting to offer the prayers but were being rebuffed because they were women.

Has anyone noticed that women have been giving TALKS in General Conference for decades now? What is so bleeding important about the prayers?

[Stargazer]

Nope.

I'll explain the context, I apologize for not doing so before, I didn't notice how large this thread had gotten and as far as I can tell my post was deleted because I can't search for it.

Someone was saying that the ban was just a cultural thing, and I said that I hoped it wasn't a misogynist cultural issue. Or something like that, I wish I could find the post, but that's how it went as far as I remember.

Again: WHAT BAN? You know something nobody else knows? Or are you inventing one? Because if there was a BAN you seem to be only person who knows about it. Odd kind of ban.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Stargazer

[Deborah]

Someone was saying that the ban was just a cultural thing, and I said that I hoped it wasn't a misogynist cultural issue. Or something like that, I wish I could find the post, but that's how it went as far as I remember.

Using the word at all when referring to the church is a pejorative.

[PoisonWell]

As to the plausibility, I definitely remember a period when they seemed to be making a deliberate point of asking returned mission presidents to give the prayers. It was in 1975, when my returned mission president gave the closing prayer at one session of conference.

As to the wording of your earlier comment about women being "not allowed" to give the prayers, I'm going to suggest that this particular word choice is a kind of "well poisoning". Ahem. Well, it's more question-loading, but I could not stop myself trying to play to your user name. Sorry!

Anyway, your word choice is more a bit like one of those loaded questions, like "Have you stopped beating your wife". As if women had been attempting to offer the prayers but were being rebuffed because they were women.

Has anyone noticed that women have been giving TALKS in General Conference for decades now? What is so bleeding important about the prayers?

Haha, no problem, the pun gave me a chuckle

I'm not saying that I even feel the prayers are that important, but when you don't have one sex do something for decades, I'd consider that a ban. What word choice would you use?

It may not be to keep the women out, but it seems to me that it is putting the importance of men over women.

[urroner]

Nope.

I'll explain the context, I apologize for not doing so before, I didn't notice how large this thread had gotten and as far as I can tell my post was deleted because I can't search for it.

Someone was saying that the ban was just a cultural thing, and I said that I hoped it wasn't a misogynist cultural issue. Or something like that, I wish I could find the post, but that's how it went as far as I remember.

Earlier posts you have on this thread are here -

The last one is the first one I can find where you mentioned misogyny.

You said:

I don't think denying the privilige of praying in conference can just be written off as 'a cultural thing.' As soon as it's inside the church, it may be motivated by culture, but it isn't just a cultural thing. And if it is purely motivated by culture, it's a somewhat misogynist culture.

I hope this helped.

[PoisonWell]

I don't think denying the privilige of praying in conference can just be written off as 'a cultural thing.' As soon as it's inside the church, it may be motivated by culture, but it isn't just a cultural thing. And if it is purely motivated by culture, it's a somewhat misogynist culture.

Ah, that's the one I was looking for.