They Did It!

[Kenngo1969]

... You may or may not have noticed, but I have NEVER invited you over to my house for dinner. Would you say that there is a ban in place?

Ban or exclusion, it's really time that ended, don't you think? PM me with where and when, and I'll be there with a bib tied around my neck and a smile on my face!

[Kenngo1969]

My daughter never says the prayer though it's not because we don't want her to, she doesn't do it because she doesn't want to.

There are many reasons why something might not be occurring, a prohibition is only one of these reasons.

As my ward's Executive Secretary, I have been given the assignment to secure prayers for Sacrament Meeting each week. On rare occasions, I have been turned down when doing the asking. While I have been surprised at the "rejection," it hasn't affected my view of the people involved nor of their faithfulness, nor has it decreased my affection for them. I've simply concluded that praying in Sacrament Meeting isn't everyone's cup of [herbal] tea.

[Kenngo1969]

Im not sure you can express it more plainly. It's been pretty clear since the World began.

Omigosh! Say it isn't so! I must be a closet sexist! Your use of that phrase immediately brought this to mind:

[Brian 2.0]

I hadn't thought about it. But why isn't whining appropriate?

I would.

I think we might be using different definitions of "whining". Here the definition I found online.

Whine

v.intr.

1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.

2. To complain or protest IN A CHILDISH FASHION.

3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch: jet engines whining.

whining goes beyond simple complaining and protesting. It seems to me to have a negative connotation and when someone is whining, there is a calmer more appropriate way to handle it without being "childish" and whining.

How would you deem my two examples (Mormons petitioning to pray at interfaith conf, Dad talking to coach about his son playing) as whining? How would you determine what takes something from complaining or protesting to the level of whining?

Because I still don't see how either example, or the petition for women to pray in conference if you don't like hypotheticals, as "whining."

[CASteinman]

I think we might be using different definitions of "whining". Here the definition I found online.

That's fine. I like definition 1 best.

How would you deem my two examples (Mormons petitioning to pray at interfaith conf, Dad talking to coach about his son playing) as whining?

Self serving wheedling and importuning to get something changed in your favor.

How would you determine what takes something from complaining or protesting to the level of whining?

I don't think it works that way. I think its the other way. Whining is at a level below complaining and protesting. I think its sort of -- like this... murmur (self).. whine.. beg.. complain.. protest ... fight (or flee)

Grumble may be in there somewhere.

Because I still don't see how either example, or the petition for women to pray in conference if you don't like hypotheticals, as "whining."

I think you probably got it.. we are using a different sense of the word.

Notice to all: Insults directed to women as a group rather than individuals may result in removal. Stop debating the dictionary and get back on topic.

[Traela]

To me, "ban" implies a deliberate exclusion. I think it's more likely that whoever figures out the schedule was more likely thinking that there are only so many slots, and the Brethren would rather have the women talk than give a prayer (or give a talk disguised as a prayer). Then the RS president started hearing rumblings, made a suggestion, Elder Uchtdorff enthusiastically agreed that women can and should give prayers, and that was that.

[rockpond]

To me, "ban" implies a deliberate exclusion. I think it's more likely that whoever figures out the schedule was more likely thinking that there are only so many slots, and the Brethren would rather have the women talk than give a prayer (or give a talk disguised as a prayer). Then the RS president started hearing rumblings, made a suggestion, Elder Uchtdorff enthusiastically agreed that women can and should give prayers, and that was that.

I think that there is a very good chance that this was the case... not a deliberate ban but just far, far fewer women general authorities than men. By necessity, the sisters will have more opportunities to speak than all of the male GA's (speaking in percentages) so why not give the prayer opportunities to the Elders.

I also think that there is a chance that it was just a tradition that nobody really thought about until the petition. Kinda in the same way that many people feel that a priesthood brother needs to be the final speaker in sacrament meeting. It's just a tradition.

[thesometimesaint]

My wife and I watched GC, and women praying went off without a hitch.

[Iggy]

We have two guys in our ward that give speeches before they pray. About a month ago one gave his speech and forgot to pray!

My husband is Sunday School president. We have a member who gives a 2.5 minute talk BEFORE he gives the 10 minute prayer. Husband makes it a point to never ask him to pray. Oddly enough this brother's wife does the same - she hasn't been asked to pray in RS again either.

Oh, they both were asked to give a talk in Sacrament - both gave such short talks that the Branch President had to fill in the time.

[CASteinman]

My wife and I watched GC, and women praying went off without a hitch.

Do you think.. maybe.. Someone warned them in advance? You know.. so they could practice or get the prayer written up good and proper?

[Brian 2.0]

To me, "ban" implies a deliberate exclusion. I think it's more likely that whoever figures out the schedule was more likely thinking that there are only so many slots, and the Brethren would rather have the women talk than give a prayer (or give a talk disguised as a prayer). Then the RS president started hearing rumblings, made a suggestion, Elder Uchtdorff enthusiastically agreed that women can and should give prayers, and that was that.

I also think "ban" is too tough of a word to apply to it. But I don't buy the limited number of women or sheer coincidence thoughts that some put out. I mean 183 general conferences. We have 8 prayers now with all the sessions we have, obviously there weren't that many all the time. But we're still probably talking about 1000 prayers with no women. I would have to think women not giving prayers in General Conference fell into the tradition and "unwritten order of things". Whatever it was... about time it changed.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Brian 2.0

[Avatar4321]

A sister prayed in Conference. The world didn't change. The Church is still true. Jesus Christ is still the Messiah. Joseph Smith is still His Prophet. The Priesthood still has authority from God to act in His name.

Has the Spirit been testifying any more or less because of this?

Edited April 8, 2013 by Avatar4321

[Kenngo1969]

A sister prayed in Conference. The world didn't change. ...

You mean, the prayer didn't work? Dang!

[PoisonWell]

And it still wouldn't be true.

Have you even read this thread? I used it to make a point.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Have you even read this thread? I used it to make a point.

Troll. I see some people like to fee the trolls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1orMXD_Ijbs

Edited April 8, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[thesometimesaint]

Do you think.. maybe.. Someone warned them in advance? You know.. so they could practice or get the prayer written up good and proper?

I'd hope that they were warned in advance. Imagine the shock of being asked while sitting in GC.

[USU78]

Jessie Evans Smith (2nd wife to Joseph Fielding Smith) used to sing solos all the time during conference when I was a pup.

How do a vocal solo and a prayer differ?

How do a song and an address/sermon/talk differ?

[PoisonWell]

Troll. I see some people like to fee the trolls.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1orMXD_Ijbs

What? Am I allegedly feeding the trolls or am I allegedly a troll? Edited April 8, 2013 by PoisonWell

[Calm]

We have a member who gives a 2.5 minute talk BEFORE he gives the 10 minute prayer. Husband makes it a point to never ask him to pray. Oddly enough this brother's wife does the same - she hasn't been asked to pray in RS again either.

Why is it I have never been in a ward with the unusual members? I feel very deprived.

[USU78]

In Evie Christian tradition, women (as Saul/Paul dictated) were supposed to be silent in church.

There was a time in living memory that people of the female persuasion didn't give sacrament meeting prayers, though they pretty much gave talks in both sunday school (sr and jr) and sacrament meetings.

There's still, as I understand it, a very strong policy in the Evie churches that women not speak or give prayers in general meetings in the chapel.

[Avatar4321]

Jessie Evans Smith (2nd wife to Joseph Fielding Smith) used to sing solos all the time during conference when I was a pup.

How do a vocal solo and a prayer differ?

How do a song and an address/sermon/talk differ?

Considering the song of the righteous is a prayer unto God, then the righteous women of the Church have been praying in General Conference since the beginning.

[CASteinman]

Why would I ask why women weren't allowed to pray? Because I'm curious, and I'd like to not think that they weren't allowed to pray because of cultural prejudices.

I am sorry. I missed this. I have been kinda sick and not thinking straight.

I had misunderstood your question as seeking for good reasons that women weren't allowed to pray. But I see what you were asking is not seeking to find a good reason but asking if there could possibly be one.

I SUPPOSE there might be a good one, but we have not been given one. And we don't really know. Here is my guess:

In restoring the Church, Joseph Smith made sure that the Priesthood served as the governing function in the Church and called upon men to handle most of the tasks of the Church, go on missions and so on. Later he organized the Relief Society -- with special focus for women. But in the rest of the Church operations, the Priesthood did all of the tasks.

In later years, Women were given increasingly greater responsibilities and roles in the Church but out of habit they were not given the responsibility for praying. Then President Kimball made sure that everyone knew that there was no reason for women not to pray in meetings like sacrament. But strangely, even though women were giving talks in General Conference, they were not asked to pray. I suspect old habits -- probably partly hidden by the women giving talks -- which is really far more substantial.

So that's what I think it is.

[klakak]

I'm just laughing that only progressive feminists are the ones celebrating this. I also wonder if this is going to be included as any part of Church History. If years down the road anyone is going to be mentioning this.

Do you remember when a woman first spoke in conference? I have no idea when that first happened. Good for women I guess. It won't ever lead to receiving the Priesthood, but good on them.

[bluebell]

Do you remember when a woman first spoke in conference? I have no idea when that first happened. Good for women I guess. It won't ever lead to receiving the Priesthood, but good on them.

If God desires that His daughters be able to pray in GC then this change is not "good on women" it's "good on the church".

[Calm]

Do you remember when a woman first spoke in conference? I have no idea when that first happened. Good for women I guess. It won't ever lead to receiving the Priesthood, but good on them.

It started on a regular basis in 1984, IIRC