Coward Member Secretly Filmed A Temple Session In Slc

[Storm Rider]

This fellow, Mike, is a bit of a ne'r-do-well. I really don't have a issue with others knowing what occurs in the temple, but I pity the disregard for the sacred these types of ex-LDS demonstrate. It is just common decency to respect the sacred of others regardless of their faith. I would no more abuse the Catholic, the Muslim, the Hindu, take your pick of religious persuasion. If they hold it sacred, it is simply the proper thing to do to respect their beliefs. This sorry excuse for a "believer" is akin to the worst type of anti-Mormon, anti-religious; his is the work of an anti-Christ.  It is evident that he no more knows the Savior than he knows the Holy Spirit; his master is found in darkness and where evil dwells. I have no use for his ilk.  

[thesometimesaint]

"Even though everyone may discover what goes on in the temple, and many have already revealed it, the important thing is that I do not reveal these things; they must remain sacred to me. I must preserve a zone of sanctity which cannot be violated whether or not anyone else in the room has the remotest idea what the situation really is ...

"No matter what happens, it will, then, always remain secret: only I know exactly the weight and force of the covenants I have made -- I and the Lord with whom I have made them -- unless I choose to reveal them. If I do not, then they are secret and sacred no matter what others may say or do. Anyone who would reveal these things has not understood them, and therefore that person has not given them away. You cannot reveal what you do not know!"

 

Hugh Nibley said it best...

 

:good:

[thesometimesaint]

Looking at this from MIke's (Norton) point of view, he just thinks the church is a big fraud and wants to expose it.  As such, he is being authentic to his own convictions.  In a way, I think that if the leaders could somehow change the perception of the narrative from 'the church is either true or false' to more of what Elder Uchtdorf was saying in his recent conference talk, then people wouldn't feel so let down if they conclude that the church is false and then want to 'expose' it, so to speak.

 

My own feeling is that there are many doctrines, teachings in the church that I like, and some that I honestly think are mistakes, but I don't subscribe to this 'the church is true/false' dichotomy any more than early christianity is either true/false.  Pretty much all the criticisms leveled at the Mormon Church can also be leveled at the early christian movements if one takes the time to investigate.

 

There isn't anything in this old world that isn't mocked and debased by the vulgar and profane. It really says more about them than the subject they are mocking.

Edited October 19, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[pcarthew]

To the OP, Matthew this has been around for quite sometime. He had all sorts of internet threats about bring down the whole Mormon society, in fact nearly 1 million people have joined the church since he started his little man rants.

I get how you feel and I believe you loyalty to you Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ are admirable. The church chose not to really respond to this apart from saying they new it existed and intended to ignore it. I think ultimately we will have a better security around our recommends, however it is reasonable now. It was the recommend of an associate of his, this bigot did not hold a recommend. All he has done is perhaps raised some ire of some angry saints, he will have some explaining to do to The Lord, but in the end he really revealed not much at all that was available already. The power in the temple is in the worthiness of those who attend, and those beyond the veil (which can't appear) on the video. I agree with you it is frustrating and of course you feel,a feeling of being violated by such bigotry. It mattereth not what this biggot has done, as The Lord has prophesied his work will roll for unhindered. Never in the history of the earth has there been such a great linking of families through the temple. This person is no different to any other week minded biggot, he is like a rat sitting in a sewer pipe bathing in effluent thinking some how he has achieved something unique, there are millions of other rats bathing in the same sewer pipe feeling the same way, all feeling unique and very clever.

My hope is that he repents and squares off with The Lord so he can feel,the joy of the temple that I feel

[Cobalt-70]

"Even though everyone may discover what goes on in the temple, and many have already revealed it, the important thing is that I do not reveal these things; they must remain sacred to me. I must preserve a zone of sanctity which cannot be violated whether or not anyone else in the room has the remotest idea what the situation really is ...

"No matter what happens, it will, then, always remain secret: only I know exactly the weight and force of the covenants I have made -- I and the Lord with whom I have made them -- unless I choose to reveal them. If I do not, then they are secret and sacred no matter what others may say or do. Anyone who would reveal these things has not understood them, and therefore that person has not given them away. You cannot reveal what you do not know!"

 

Hugh Nibley said it best...

The only things that are never supposed to be revealed by initiates are the names, signs, and tokens. So Nibley is inventing a zone of secrecy for no reason, as most Mormons do. It is nothing more than embarrassment that has been projected onto a folk doctrine. Our embarrassment about the ceremony begins in youth or as a new member, when we learn that nobody is comfortable talking about it. We internalize that embarrassment and perpetuate it to the next generation.

[savedbygrace]

It is wrong surely for someone to secretly film anything without consent. That the subject matter is considered sacred by those involved makes is doubly wrong. This person may well think that he has a right to expose something he feels is false, but these kind of tactics destroy any credibility he may have had. The terrible effects his activity has had on his family are difficult to imagine. It's all very sad really.

[Kenngo1969]

It is wrong surely for someone to secretly film anything without consent. That the subject matter is considered sacred by those involved makes is doubly wrong. This person may well think that he has a right to expose something he feels is false, but these kind of tactics destroy any credibility he may have had. The terrible effects his activity has had on his family are difficult to imagine. It's all very sad really.

While I'm sure we have our differences, you deserve 1,000 rep points for this.  Sadly,  I can only give you one.

[Judd]

Our embarrassment about the ceremony begins in youth or as a new member, when we learn that nobody is comfortable talking about it. We internalize that embarrassment and perpetuate it to the next generation.

Are you speaking for yourself or for the rest of us?

[Calm]

Are you speaking for yourself or for the rest of us?

I think he must be using the "royal we".

[why me]

I'm almost sure it's all for political reasons.

This actually happened some time ago, if it is the same film that I saw ages ago. At the time, the person or his supporter seemed to be gloating on another board and promised more such videos of other sacred ordinances. I don't think that it was done for political reasons. But rather to expose something that the church considers sacred for public mocking and enjoyment. And basically that is what happened.

[why me]

It is wrong surely for someone to secretly film anything without consent. That the subject matter is considered sacred by those involved makes is doubly wrong. This person may well think that he has a right to expose something he feels is false, but these kind of tactics destroy any credibility he may have had. The terrible effects his activity has had on his family are difficult to imagine. It's all very sad really.

I don't believe that the person feels any remorse at all. It may come someday if this individual returns to church. But not now. I would suppose that his person may have had such anger toward the lds church that the person rationalized it all away. It was a 'gotcha' moment for the person, at least that it what I felt about it on a different board when the person in question promised a film from the temple. (if it is the same video when published there)

 

The person does have credibility with a host of antimormons who have now mocked the temple ceremony.

[savedbygrace]

While I'm sure we have our differences, you deserve 1,000 rep points for this. Sadly, I can only give you one.

[savedbygrace]

Thankyou. When people create a sensational expose such as this I suppose we have to look at why. Well it isn't to inform as it has been done before . Also the ceremonies have been extensively written about and discussed, so need for covert filming. So my conclusion is that it is done for self, for this person's own selfagrandisement and pride because it is nothing new, and only he will get some sort of a buzz out of it. It is deplorable behaviour and benefits no one

[Storm Rider]

Are you speaking for yourself or for the rest of us?

I hope Cobalt is speaking for himself; it is a ridiculously twisted position that has nothing to do with any of the members I have ever known. It is the kind of verbal tripe that is only found on the worst of the anti sites.

[thesometimesaint]

The only things that are never supposed to be revealed by initiates are the names, signs, and tokens. So Nibley is inventing a zone of secrecy for no reason, as most Mormons do. It is nothing more than embarrassment that has been projected onto a folk doctrine. Our embarrassment about the ceremony begins in youth or as a new member, when we learn that nobody is comfortable talking about it. We internalize that embarrassment and perpetuate it to the next generation.

 

Without an intimate understanding of what those names, signs, and tokens mean there is little to nothing about the Temple, or the ceremony that makes sense. You'd get more out of watching a Shakespeare play. I have no problem talking about those things in the right place and at the right time. The unitiated and the internet are neither the right place nor right time.

[K-2]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so don't know if it was mentioned already, but I think that the Church should use face recognition technology to catch this guy in the act. He has revealed his unblurred face on a youtube video so that would be possible. I tried to get Elder Walker's email address so I could send him this suggestion, but couldn't find it. This would be a good idea though I think. What do you guys think?

[jkwilliams]

While it surprised me that it took this long for someone to do this, I don't support what the film-taker did at all. It seems to have been done out of spite, more than anything.

[thesometimesaint]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so don't know if it was mentioned already, but I think that the Church should use face recognition technology to catch this guy in the act. He has revealed his unblurred face on a youtube video so that would be possible. I tried to get Elder Walker's email address so I could send him this suggestion, but couldn't find it. This would be a good idea though I think. What do you guys think?

 

I think it would be more expensive than can be justified. God will make sure he gets his just rewards.

[Tacenda]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so don't know if it was mentioned already, but I think that the Church should use face recognition technology to catch this guy in the act. He has revealed his unblurred face on a youtube video so that would be possible. I tried to get Elder Walker's email address so I could send him this suggestion, but couldn't find it. This would be a good idea though I think. What do you guys think?

He's given his name on the Heart of the Matter show. He and another guy are on the show talking about how they filmed it. He might have a death wish, who knows? Since he's on this show with a group of non denominational Christians, maybe he's become one of them and actually thinks he's saving the Mormons from going to hell. There are a lot of non LDS Christians that are going around to warn people. He may be thinking along those lines. In this regard maybe he isn't doing this for himself. Edited October 24, 2013 by Tacenda

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The new movie had nothing to do with that.  Jerks will always be with us, they are not going away.  It's not worth getting your blood pressure up over.

Also the movie is little more than Gen 1 & 2, it does not show ordinances, that is left off camera, only the need for covenant...the rest is audio, then it will go back to explain, but again does not show.

[why me]

While it surprised me that it took this long for someone to do this, I don't support what the film-taker did at all. It seems to have been done out of spite, more than anything.

This is true. But I will also go a step further and say it also came from a deep sense of unhappiness. I would not want to be in his shoes only because his life must be in an unpleasant place. However, much time has passed since he made he video. Maybe now he is in a better place in his life. Rationalizations can make what he done seem just.

[why me]

He's given his name on the bornaagainmormontvshow. He and another guy are on the show talking about how they did it apparently. He might want a death wish, who knows? Since he's on this show with a bunch of so called Jesus freaks, maybe he's become one of them and actually thinks he's saving the Mormons from going to hell. There are a lot of non LDS Christians that are going around to warn them. He may be thinking along those lines. In this regard maybe he isn't doing this for himself. I think he really must think it's of the devil to be doing this. Somewhere on a Youtube they equate Feemasonry with Satanism, but through my study of it, the Satanists latched onto Freemasonry, therefore it's not the same. But this guy may not have got the memo. Otherwise I can't fathom anyone doing this without a death wish or someone thinking they're saving a people.

I would make a guess that he is there just for the publicity and 'fame'. And no other reason. He was bragging how he did it on other boards and getting some kudos for a job well done.

 

True Satanists are basically atheists. They believe in neither heaven or hell. And basically want human beings to be true to their nature without outside interference from a heaven or from a hell.

[Stargazer]

The only things that are never supposed to be revealed by initiates are the names, signs, and tokens. So Nibley is inventing a zone of secrecy for no reason, as most Mormons do. It is nothing more than embarrassment that has been projected onto a folk doctrine. Our embarrassment about the ceremony begins in youth or as a new member, when we learn that nobody is comfortable talking about it. We internalize that embarrassment and perpetuate it to the next generation.

 

This is an interesting point and I do believe that what you say here is largely correct.  I was endowed at age 20 just prior to leaving on my mission, and over the years as I have continued in temple attendance it has gradually become clear to me that it is just those things you mention which are not be revealed outside the temple (or even inside the temple outside of a particular place).

 

On the other hand, I don't drink Coke at Church or at Church functions (unless provided!) because I am sensitive to the touchpoints of some of my fellow Saints.  So, I am very delicate when discussing temple rites for similar reasons.

 

I am a convert, and so do not feel embarrassed about the temple, or discussing it in reasonable detail.

[Calm]

I am a convert, and so do not feel embarrassed about the temple, or discussing it in reasonable detail.

I am not a convert and have never felt embarrassed about the temple or discussing it in reasonable detail.

Edited October 23, 2013 by calmoriah

[AndyDnom]

He's given his name on the bornaagainmormontvshow. He and another guy are on the show talking about how they did it apparently. He might want a death wish, who knows? Since he's on this show with a bunch of so called Jesus freaks, maybe he's become one of them and actually thinks he's saving the Mormons from going to hell. There are a lot of non LDS Christians that are going around to warn them. He may be thinking along those lines. In this regard maybe he isn't doing this for himself. I think he really must think it's of the devil to be doing this. Somewhere on a Youtube they equate Feemasonry with Satanism, but through my study of it, the Satanists latched onto Freemasonry, therefore it's not the same. But this guy may not have got the memo. Otherwise I can't fathom anyone doing this without a death wish or someone thinking they're saving a people.

Is "jesus freaks" the kind of stuff that is allowed to be said on this board?