Coward Member Secretly Filmed A Temple Session In Slc

[MormonMason]

If you are talking about the graphic Masonic parts, I think they would be an incentive for even more recording.

They weren't Masonic. I never saw anything in any Masonic Lodges or in old cipher and other rituals (whether British, American, French, or clandestine) that I saw in LDS Temples. Slight parallels to a few items, yes, but never anything identical--unless temple workers gave the first two tokens wrongly, as they sometimes did.

And, what people would do in the old days was apostatize and reenact the temple ceremony in their ex-Mormon "visitor centers" (later they would do this in video format, a la Chuck Sackett's What's Going On In There?), complete with guys wearing ladies aprons and vice versa. One time, somebody borrowed a recommend from an apathetic and gullible member and sneaked in a small tape recorder back in 1984 to play it on radio stations with lots of commentary.

A lot more members of the Church took the temple seriously in those days, though, in my opinion.

[Scott Lloyd]

The CHI says that there can be no extra requirements to getting a temple recommend other than the guidelines in the temple recommend book. Those guidelines say that the temple recommend questions need to always be discussed, and an acceptable answer to those questions is ordinarily sufficient to establish worthiness. Stake Presidents are supposed to ask the questions, and if the person gives acceptable answers, they get a recommend, ...

It will be a sad state of affairs in the Church when handbooks have trumped gifts of the Spirit.

... unless the Stake President knows of some evidence to the contrary.

Presumably, if MormonMason's account can be accepted at face value, the stake president in this instance did have knowledge to the contrary.

[MormonMason]

It will be a sad state of affairs in the Church when handbooks have trumped gifts of the Spirit.

Agreed 100%. Sad thing is, many Bishops and Stake Presidents either have no idea of the kinds of gifts, including the gift of discernment, they are given to help them fulfill their callings, or they lack the faith to exercise them.

Presumably, if MormonMason's account can be accepted at face value, the stake president in this instance did have knowledge to the contrary.

I accept it at face value. I know what I witnessed and experienced way back in those days. I can understand that some people would not want to believe it. After all, who really wants to live the Gospel anyway and have the Lord reveal their secret acts to their leaders when those interviewed try to conceal them? For many others, the gift of discernment cannot possibly exist and be real, can it?

Edited October 24, 2012 by MormonMason

[Cobalt-70]

They weren't Masonic. I never saw anything in any Masonic Lodges or in old cipher and other rituals (whether British, American, French, or clandestine) that I saw in LDS Temples. Slight parallels to a few items, yes, but never anything identical--unless temple workers gave the first two tokens wrongly, as they sometimes did.

It depends on how far back you go. the mid-20th century version of the ceremony was very toned-down from the graphic Masonic content that existed in the 19th century and early 20th century.

[Cobalt-70]

I knew him personally. This is no apocryphal story. I will state at the outset that I myself experienced his accuracy. People also discussed things after the initial embarrassments wore off. Back in those days people would confess their shortcomings to one another in certain meetings. At the times of some of these interviews some would be outside the room to see people hurriedly leave the room where they were interviewed and not so thick walls in that old building (that no longer exists, by the way) often let people sitting outside hear goings on in the room if people got upset. Many confessed after having the sins identified. They actually got their lives in line--well, most of them, anyway--and went on to attend the temple worthily. The events I describe were from long before the CHI and Temple Recommend book we now use. In fact, it predates by more than a decade even the 1999 General Handbook of Instructions that got leaked onto the Internet in text format in later years.

And, I also can tell you that the man was by no means "a jerk." But, he also would not stand by and let someone lie to him when Spirit let him know it was going on. You could not get much past him. He was very direct but kind as a teddy bear. He actually would attempt to contact people after their interviews and put his arms around them, tell them he loved them, and try to get them to do what they should. I actually think of him as one of the best Stake Presidents I have ever had the privilege to know. He passed away some years ago. I have met few like him since. I wish there were more like him. I can recall some of my fondest memories in that Ward in that Stake at the time. Those were times I never shall forget. I often find myself wishing we could go back to those days.

It sounds like this was long enough ago that this type of free-wheeling administration would have been acceptable, and probably respected. I can't see this being tolerated now, though. The church is a franchise like McDonald's. For McDonald's if the burgers aren't exactly the same height, and the fries cooked exactly the same length of time, then damage is done to the McDonald's brand. The church's brand needs similar uniformity.

[MormonMason]

It depends on how far back you go. the mid-20th century version of the ceremony was very toned-down from the graphic Masonic content that existed in the 19th century and early 20th century.

I have copies of that material, including unpublished journal accounts, newspaper exposes, and other such materials. The same still applies. Nothing is identical. Parallels can be derived, many of them very contrived, but nothing identical.

Copying from pictures in books makes them look closer to the modern eye than they really were. Even pre-1990 was the same. And, there is nothing that is or has been in Masonry that is like the clothing used in the LDS temple ceremony. There was and is no such thing as Masonic ritual undergarments from which to copy into the temple ceremony. No marked veil like that used in the temple ceremony can be or was seen in Masonic rituals.

I have studied numerous rituals, including very old ones in cipher and even clandestine rituals, from around the country and elsewhere, dating from before Joseph Smith to the present. I have yet to see anything specific to the LDS temple ceremony in any of them, and I have looked closely for any signs of actual copying verbatim. Parallels and partial likenesses to certain words and phrases when isolated, yes. Exact quotes and complete borrowings, no.

Feel free to disagree. I know better.

And, no, I have no intention of getting drawn into a protracted discussion about this matter. Should I get called away as has happened in the past, I will not get to finish my thoughts on the matter before the thread gets locked. I am instead waiting for people claiming duplicated Masonic material to publish everything they will before I address it again all at once. It is better that way, IMO, and will be infinitely (pun intended) more fun.

[MormonMason]

It sounds like this was long enough ago that this type of free-wheeling administration would have been acceptable, and probably respected. I can't see this being tolerated now, though. The church is a franchise like McDonald's. For McDonald's if the burgers aren't exactly the same height, and the fries cooked exactly the same length of time, then damage is done to the McDonald's brand. The church's brand needs similar uniformity.

It was some time ago. I surely miss those days. The Church does need some uniformity, though. That is what the CHI is for, so that it is less likely to not do what should not be done in certain circumstances. On the other hand, all Bishops and Stake Presidents need to rely upon the Spirit and make use of the gift of discernment. If they did, things would be a whole lot better. My opinion, of course. I am sure that if all Bishops and Stake Presidents had the Spirit like they should there would be quite a few who could not tolerate it and would either straighten out their lives or apostatize and improve the Church on their ways out.

[Scott Lloyd]

It sounds like this was long enough ago that this type of free-wheeling administration would have been acceptable, and probably respected. I can't see this being tolerated now, though. The church is a franchise like McDonald's. For McDonald's if the burgers aren't exactly the same height, and the fries cooked exactly the same length of time, then damage is done to the McDonald's brand. The church's brand needs similar uniformity.

Whatever the nature of the Church's "brand" today, I still see it as leaving room for the individual exercise of spirituals gifts by ordained priesthood leaders within the purvue of their individual callings.

[cinepro]

Besides, how could anyone possibly know that he was 100% accurate?

I once knew a Bishop who was able to detect whether any of the potential missionaries from his ward had ever committed self-abuse. Even though some denied it, he was right 100% of the time.

Edited October 25, 2012 by cinepro

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

90% of all men do, and the other 10% lie.

[KevinG]

Barring exceptional circumstances the church is an honor program. Anyone who breaks covenants, lies on a recommend interview or seeks to reveal sacred things out of their time and place is hurting themselves. The Church will go on. Those who are fooled through no fault of their own will be found innocent.

[Cobalt-70]

I once knew a Bishop who was able to detect whether any of the potential missionaries from his ward had ever committed self-abuse. Even though some denied it, he was right 100% of the time.

Funny!

[Saints Alive]

I once knew a Bishop who was able to detect whether any of the potential missionaries from his ward had ever committed self-abuse. Even though some denied it, he was right 100% of the time.

I have a clock that tells the right time twice a day that he might be interested in.

[cdowis]

The CHI says that there can be no extra requirements to getting a temple recommend other than the guidelines in the temple recommend book. Those guidelines say that the temple recommend questions need to always be discussed, and an acceptable answer to those questions is ordinarily sufficient to establish worthiness. Stake Presidents are supposed to ask the questions, and if the person gives acceptable answers, they get a recommend, unless the Stake President knows of some evidence to the contrary.

I personally feel that this is wise counsel and approved by the prophet. The issue, as I see it, of the "inspired" Stake President is that as people become aware of this, it may frighten otherwise worthy but "marginal" members from getting a recommend, even when their sin would not normally prevent them from getting a recommend.

I wonder how many did not even go to get a recommend because they were not "perfect" and simply felt unworthy to meet with him.

[cdowis]

People like this borrow other peoples' temple recommends to get in. Several people I have had dealings with in the past have done the same. Some members indeed are stupid and gullible enough to lend their recommends to friends so they can see the ceremonies, too.

There is a story that a nonmember woman borrowed a recommend to attend her daughter's wedding. While they were in the waiting area, she asked when they were going to serve the coffee.

Another story: after attending a session, a nonmember went to the temple president's office to brag how he was able to get into the temple.

The president explained to him that, even though he was not a member, he was bound by those covenants. The temple recommend serves to protect those who are not worthy to go to the temple.

Edited October 27, 2012 by cdowis

[cdowis]

Tell the temple people. But one must make sure that one is correct. However, such equipment is becoming very sophisticated. Hard to find the people responsible for taping when they are doing it. It takes an eagle eye these days.

Thanks for the insight.

I foolishly have been preparing my mind for a spiritual experience in the endowment room. Now I realize that I should, instead, focus on the people around me.

Hmmm.... what does my eagle eye tell me. What is that sticking out of that guy's pocket?

Is that sister concealing something in her shawl.

That guy with the beard ==>> the button on his shirt is slightly off color. I think I hear a clicking sound,

Edited October 27, 2012 by cdowis

[cdowis]

The best way to respond to his behavior is to post a response video on YouTube, exposing who he is and what he is. I am working on one I plan to post soon.

I disagree.

The best response is to do your duty. You will soundly refute his purpose by doing home teaching, attending church, doing temple work and missionary work.

May I suggest that you don't do something silly, like responding to Judas. Just ignore him because anything you say will just feed his ego.

[Scott Lloyd]

I personally feel that this is wise counsel and approved by the prophet. The issue, as I see it, of the "inspired" Stake President is that as people become aware of this, it may frighten otherwise worthy but "marginal" members from getting a recommend, even when their sin would not normally prevent them from getting a recommend.

I wonder how many did not even go to get a recommend because they were not "perfect" and simply felt unworthy to meet with him.

So somebody might have a little extra impetus to put his life in order before showing up at the bishop's office for a recommend or recommend renewal. What a terrible thing that would be.

By the way, I don't think even the prophet would object to a stake president exercising his right and responsibility to seek and receive spiritual gifts that pertain to the fulfilling of his calling or ministering to the people he is called to serve.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[ERMD]

Two youth (at least) in my ward have viewed this. We have some talking to do.

[Calm]

Two youth (at least) in my ward have viewed this. We have some talking to do.

Did they go looking for it intentionally or stumble upon it? Just curious, don't need to share details if you think inappropriate.

[ERMD]

One heard about it at school, looked for it, showed it to the other.

[Saints Alive]

The sad part of it is that some will not be able to look past the surface "weird" factor and see the true beauty of the symbolism of the temple.

[Storm Rider]

The sad part of it is that some will not be able to look past the surface "weird" factor and see the true beauty of the symbolism of the temple.

Hmm, "weird part"? The session has been evolving since Kirtland and it will continue to evolve. It is unfortunate that any member would go through a session and find things to be weird rather than serious, awesome, and enlightening. The Brethren are slow to make any changes in the Endowment even knowing that it has changed a great deal from the beginning. With all the changes that have been made it remains a personal experience between an individual and God focused on making personal covenants.

[Calm]

Hmm, "weird part"? The session has been evolving since Kirtland and it will continue to evolve. It is unfortunate that any member would go through a session and find things to be weird rather than serious, awesome, and enlightening. The Brethren are slow to make any changes in the Endowment even knowing that it has changed a great deal from the beginning. With all the changes that have been made it remains a personal experience between an individual and God focused on making personal covenants.

"Weird" means something supernatural or uncanny, not of this world....a somewhat appropriate term for the temple experience whose purpose is in part to help take us out of the world, beyond the mundane. Weird also ties into destiny or fate as well as describing the peculiar and uncanny or mysterious. Edited October 29, 2012 by calmoriah

[Nathair/|\]

"Weird" means something supernatural or uncanny, not of this world....a somewhat appropriate term for the temple experience whose purpose is in part to help take us out of the world, beyond the mundane. Weird also ties into destiny or fate as well as describing the peculiar and uncanny or mysterious.

The things of Eternity are always "weird" from the perspective of this world.