Coward Member Secretly Filmed A Temple Session In Slc

[Saints Alive]

It is unfortunate that any member would go through a session and find things to be weird rather than serious, awesome, and enlightening.

Except I'm not talking about a member who has prepared themselves spiritually. My comment, in context, is about young or new members who stumble upon this jacka$$'s videos and have that, without context, as their first image of the temple.

[Cobalt-70]

Except I'm not talking about a member who has prepared themselves spiritually. My comment, in context, is about young or new members who stumble upon this jacka$$'s videos and have that, without context, as their first image of the temple.

The antidote is for the LDS Church itself to publish this material in its proper context. The church obviously doesn't need to publish the secret signs and tokens, or even the whole ceremony. But it could at least show what temple clothing looks like, it could show a carefully-selected still image of a prayer circle, and it could maybe even show a clip or frame or two from the movie. It out to outline exactly what the covenants are that people make during the ceremony. Nobody should be required to go to the temple without knowing, word-for-word, the language of the obligations they will be getting themselves into. If the church was a credible and authoritative source of all this information, rather than guys like this on the internet, then the church would be able to connect these disclosures to context about why we do this, why it is important to Mormons, and what it means.

[Saints Alive]

Cobalt:

That's probably a good idea, from what you describe it sounds like the church would be making a movie trailer for the temple.

[oceancoast]

Probably hosting it for nnn then, assuming nnn was the one who took the video and not just the one who posted it up.

Mike Norton is nnn.

[Abulafia]

I've been to two Masonic Halls/Temples over the last month and I was surprised by the amount of detail that the Masons gave the visitors.  I asked why, and both guides said that it was all on the internet anyway so they have decided to be more open and less secretive about what goes on.  It may be a good idea for the church to do the same.  It's very hard to keep secrets nowadays.

[cdowis]

An Evangelist responds

 

 

Do the rituals recorded in those videos seem weird to me? Yes, of course. Just like the Eucharist must seem bizarre to people who don’t understand its world of symbolism. Is there anything wrong with having ceremonies that are only for the faithful, ceremonies that are meant to be kept secret? Of course not. Should Christians celebrate that someone lied repeatedly to gain admission, breached the rules to secretly record the proceedings, released those films with an obvious political agenda in the midst of an election contest, and invited the world to join in the mockery? Would that be a Christian thing to do?

 

The answer is obvious. Mormons view us as hypocritical when we tell them they’re not Christian, but then behave in a non-Christian way toward them. And, well…they have a point. To the extent that Christians take advantage of these videos to engage in more Mormon-bashing, they should be ashamed.

 

http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/evangelical-response-to-mormon-temple-undercover-video/

Edited October 18, 2013 by cdowis

[JLHPROF]

"Even though everyone may discover what goes on in the temple, and many have already revealed it, the important thing is that I do not reveal these things; they must remain sacred to me. I must preserve a zone of sanctity which cannot be violated whether or not anyone else in the room has the remotest idea what the situation really is ...

"No matter what happens, it will, then, always remain secret: only I know exactly the weight and force of the covenants I have made -- I and the Lord with whom I have made them -- unless I choose to reveal them. If I do not, then they are secret and sacred no matter what others may say or do. Anyone who would reveal these things has not understood them, and therefore that person has not given them away. You cannot reveal what you do not know!"

 

Hugh Nibley said it best...

[cdowis]

Two youth (at least) in my ward have viewed this. We have some talking to do.

 

Tell them, "don't worry about it." 

 

This is one of those things that we let the Lord do the worrying.

[oceancoast]

Tell them, "don't worry about it." 

 

This is one of those things that we let the Lord do the worrying.

It saddens me what Mike is doing.. Not that I worry about the church.. the church is just fine and the Lord will in the end deal with this in his own way.. but Mike is my brother.  He and I have been bantering over his Anti-Mormonism recently.. and he seems intent on continuing down this path and has indicated to me last night that he's going to make another video.  Mike was instrumental in getting another of my siblings to leave the church and join in the Anti-Mormon crusade.. That sibling committed suicide this past summer.

[canard78]

I've been to two Masonic Halls/Temples over the last month and I was surprised by the amount of detail that the Masons gave the visitors.  I asked why, and both guides said that it was all on the internet anyway so they have decided to be more open and less secretive about what goes on.  It may be a good idea for the church to do the same.  It's very hard to keep secrets nowadays.

 

With the exception of a very few parts of the 90 minute experience there is nothing in the ceremony that we should not, in principle, be comfortable discussing. I'd still consider it to best done in the right company and location. But it's really ok to discuss more of the content than we think.

 

I've heard (a rumour) from a friend who works for the church (in a temple related department) that the church is re-doing the temple prep course and plans to be more open with the content of the endowment. I don't know to what extent and they had only heard it on the grapevine.

[3DOP]

Oh shoot, what a dumb dumb...an old thread. I saw October. Oh well...I guess Jeremy must have need another thumbs up from me for something over a year old. Its not like he isn't the champion of "multithumbs" around here already.

[halconero]

With the exception of a very few parts of the 90 minute experience there is nothing in the ceremony that we should not, in principle, be comfortable discussing. I'd still consider it to best done in the right company and location. But it's really ok to discuss more of the content than we think.

 

I've heard (a rumour) from a friend who works for the church (in a temple related department) that the church is re-doing the temple prep course and plans to be more open with the content of the endowment. I don't know to what extent and they had only heard it on the grapevine.

 

This is how I explain it to friends preparing to enter the temple, and those who are genuinely interested:

 

I go to the temple to learn more about who we are personally, my role in my family, marriage, and in God's plan. When I go to the temple I change into a white pair of pants, shirt and tie. During the endowment I watch a presentation, in some places acted out, in others on film, on the creation of the world, the fall of Adam and Even and their life after the fall.

 

I'm invited to consider their lives as symbolic of our own. I came to earth, have fallen and am guided back to Heavenly Father by his messengers, personal promises with him, and ultimately his Son. 

 

During and after the presentation I put on sacred clothing that closely resembles that which was worn by Israelite priests in the Old Testament era. This helps me focus on my role as a priesthood holder, or minister, in the Church. It helps me remember that I'm in the temple to make covenants with God. The covenants recommit me to obeying and following the example and teachings of God and Jesus Christ, including maintaining any sexual relationships within marriage, and striving to give my time and means to help God and his children. 

 

Ultimately the Endowment finishes with a symbolic passing from mortality to eternal life with God. When people pass away we often say that it's "passing through the veil." We have a physical reminder of that to help us understand that one day God will also raise us up in the Resurrection to live with him again. After that final part we get to relax, ponder and meditate in the celestial room, which is representative of God's home.

 

Of course, when they ask me about the secret parts I say:

 

Just like we make our first covenant with God at baptism, we also make our covenants with God using ordinances. They're quite ordinary, but God asks us to keep them private. I guess the difference between sacred and secret is that even if the whole world knew what those were, and it was pasted on billboards and the news up and down town, I would still try to keep it something personal. When I'm married I'll have a very sacred, awesome, happy, intimate, sexual relationship with my wife, the very fact that we're married will tell people that such a relationship is existent, but it wouldn't be appropriate for me to go around telling others about it. Not because it's a bad then, but because it's something very special that I share with my partner.

 

It's the same with those things in the temple. Everything is open, the presentation, the symbolism of certain aspects, and how it helps us. But those specific physical reminders of my relationship with Deity are personal to me.

[Calm]

 That sibling.....

I am very sorry to hear this, it must be very troubling as well as saddening for you...perhaps though it would be better not to be sharing this kind of information online given that there is enough information in your posts to know the individuals being discussed and other family members might want a greater privacy on the matter than you do personally.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Saw a video on reddit today, followed the link to Youtube. This coward is posting his videos with his commentary on Youtube and all over the internet.Link removed. Let's not draw more attention to this please.Skylla

My question is; why not leave if your faith has been lost instead of filming Temple services, or is it anger? Of course Matthew, please know I am addressing the person who did this, not you my brother.

[Tacenda]

I'v assumed that the new temple movie was done in part because this guy had the old one filmed. Guess what? He's going to release the new film, coming up. How does this happen again?? Does the church need to check better? And how I know is that I checked good ol' Shawn McRaney's website recently. He is back to criticizing Mormonism and not Evangelism. He is not on TV20 again, but is on the internet with weekly shows. He showed the temple video and then had the guy who is responsible show up and he announced he's having someone, or had someone, film the new one. Shawn has really lost it, I think.

[Storm Rider]

These type of situations are unfortunate. The most I can think is that someone has violated the covenants made freely with their God. In that I hold the TE sacred, it offends me when another treats it so casually. That others may view it is of little consequence; those who view it will not understand its significance or value.

The temple remains sacred even though it has not been secret for many generations.

[EllenMaksoud]

Saw a video on reddit today, followed the link to Youtube. This coward is posting his videos with his commentary on Youtube and all over the internet.

Link removed. Let's not draw more attention to this please.

Skylla

Gosh, I've seen a half dozen of these. The way we encourage these people is by getting all indignant. In truth, there is not a thing that is not holy in the rituals, though they may seem strange to those who do not understand. I can see these things are private, but being secretive just encourages them.

 

From an unindowed member, I think the church would be better served by just going public with educational videos to help people understand. Just saying

Edited October 19, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Abulafia]

Looking at this from MIke's (Norton) point of view, he just thinks the church is a big fraud and wants to expose it.  As such, he is being authentic to his own convictions.  In a way, I think that if the leaders could somehow change the perception of the narrative from 'the church is either true or false' to more of what Elder Uchtdorf was saying in his recent conference talk, then people wouldn't feel so let down if they conclude that the church is false and then want to 'expose' it, so to speak.
 

My own feeling is that there are many doctrines, teachings in the church that I like, and some that I honestly think are mistakes, but I don't subscribe to this 'the church is true/false' dichotomy any more than early christianity is either true/false.  Pretty much all the criticisms leveled at the Mormon Church can also be leveled at the early christian movements if one takes the time to investigate.

[mfbukowski]

Seems to me that all would have to be done is pull the guy's recommend.  Easy stuff.

[mfbukowski]

I'v assumed that the new temple movie was done in part because this guy had the old one filmed. Guess what? He's going to release the new film, coming up. How does this happen again?? Does the church need to check better? And how I know is that I checked good ol' Shawn McRaney's website recently. He is back to criticizing Mormonism and not Evangelism. He is not on TV20 again, but is on the internet with weekly shows. He showed the temple video and then had the guy who is responsible show up and he announced he's having someone, or had someone, film the new one. Shawn has really lost it, I think.

The new movie had nothing to do with that.  Jerks will always be with us, they are not going away.  It's not worth getting your blood pressure up over.

[mfbukowski]

It saddens me what Mike is doing.. Not that I worry about the church.. the church is just fine and the Lord will in the end deal with this in his own way.. but Mike is my brother.  He and I have been bantering over his Anti-Mormonism recently.. and he seems intent on continuing down this path and has indicated to me last night that he's going to make another video.  Mike was instrumental in getting another of my siblings to leave the church and join in the Anti-Mormon crusade.. That sibling committed suicide this past summer.

That's horrible- I am so sorry.

 

Contact his bishop and have the bishop cancel his recommend.  That should end it.

[canard78]

Seems to me that all would have to be done is pull the guy's recommend.  Easy stuff.

 

I think he's borrowed several "active in name only" members - so it's not only his own recommend he uses. I remember coming across a thread on another forum where several volunteered their for him to use. I think he even went in on a female one once just to show how easy it was. People were celebrating his success. The guys on the desk are not security guards. They're greeters.

[Calm]

I'v assumed that the new temple movie was done in part because this guy had the old one filmed.

What difference would that make?  The old ones needed to be updated, I highly doubt there was any consideration about whether or not it had been filmed.  People have been recreating it, having the text available etc. since the Church first starting doing endowments.  It is just the same thing over again, imo.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Gosh, I've seen a half dozen of these. The way we encourage these people is by getting all indignant. In truth, there is not a thing that is not holy in the rituals, though they may seem strange to those who do not understand. I can see these things are private, but being secretive just encourages them.

 

From an unindowed member, I think the church would be better served by just going public with educational videos to help people understand. Just saying

We make covenants to keep things of the Temple in the Temp,e because of their sacredness, this is why we are we fear foe the soul of the people who record them, and see it as apostasy of those who do it. We are not ashamed or embarrassed, but when someone gives their word it should mean something, especially when they do so under covenant to God.

[teddyaware]

Looking at this from MIke's (Norton) point of view, he just thinks the church is a big fraud and wants to expose it.  As such, he is being authentic to his own convictions.  In a way, I think that if the leaders could somehow change the perception of the narrative from 'the church is either true or false' to more of what Elder Uchtdorf was saying in his recent conference talk, then people wouldn't feel so let down if they conclude that the church is false and then want to 'expose' it, so to speak.

 

My own feeling is that there are many doctrines, teachings in the church that I like, and some that I honestly think are mistakes, but I don't subscribe to this 'the church is true/false' dichotomy any more than early christianity is either true/false.  Pretty much all the criticisms leveled at the Mormon Church can also be leveled at the early christian movements if one takes the time to investigate.

The only problem with this perspective is that the Church ultimately really is either true or false. Finding a middle ground between these two possibilities, a sort of coping mechanism for dealing with disillusionment, will be a poor substitute for genuine faith and testimony if the Church turns out to be true (I speak as a man) when the day of judgment arrives.

The scriptures clearly indicate God wants us to truly and fully believe Him, even when believing Him is an extremely difficult thing to do. Laman and Lemuel were absolutely convinced in their rational minds that Nephi would never be able to construct a seaworthy ship that could traverse the great ocean, yet they turned out to be shamefully wrong, even though they were so very, very sure they were right.

"For without faith it is impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6

Edited October 19, 2013 by teddyaware