Gender Gap Widens In The Church

[Storm Rider]

That's just how it has to be, statistically, if there are more women than men in the church, and these women are not marrying non-Mormons in droves. Some women will marry early, but for every one that marries early, there might be one that marries much later, because there are not enough good, non-creepy Mormon men to go around. Many of these women will end up marrying divorced men as their first marriage.

So all these women are perfect, non-creepy women that are ready for marriage? There are a lot of assumptions that just aren't accurate in this conversation. I am not saying there are not problems with men, but that it is a two sided coin and both sides have their issues.

But are you saying that it is better that a child not be born into a Mormon home, than that she be born to a single Mormon mother, or a two-mother Mormon household? The supply of Mormon uteruses is not an unlimited resource, and women have a ticking fertility clock.

Better? It is better that children are born "within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities." The issue is for children to raised in good homes; not every woman to be a mother. It is not acceptable to place primary importance on women having children; the focus is righeous families raising children in a home that is safe and governed under the principles taught by Jesus Christ.

[Storm Rider]

No of course it's not a 'law'.....just something I feel strongly about. To me, a man who won't wear his wedding ring, says to me:

I'm not proud of being my wife's husband...or I like looking like I'm not attached, so other women will flirt with me.....or I like feeling still 'single'.....

There's just something wrong with that....I doubt a lot of you married men would appreciate your wives never wearing THEIR wedding ring.... wouldn't that feel weird to you?

Anyway that's just MHO....

Ginger, I generally wear my wedding band when I leave the house, but jewelry (watches and rings) have never been comfortable to me. I hate things on my hands. When I get to work I take off my watch and ring and set it on my desk and then put them back on when I go home. On weekends I generally don't wear my ring or my watch; my cell phone has a clock so the importance of having a watch is decreasing in today's society. Of course there have been work days when I forget to put my ring on.

Your perception of men that don't wear a ring is really only your perception and it has nothing to do with reality. The reasons men don't wear jewelry can be diverse and may have nothing to do with your perceptions. Does that make sense?

[GingerRed]

Ginger, I generally wear my wedding band when I leave the house, but jewelry (watches and rings) have never been comfortable to me. I hate things on my hands. When I get to work I take off my watch and ring and set it on my desk and then put them back on when I go home. On weekends I generally don't wear my ring or my watch; my cell phone has a clock so the importance of having a watch is decreasing in today's society. Of course there have been work days when I forget to put my ring on.

Your perception of men that don't wear a ring is really only your perception and it has nothing to do with reality. The reasons men don't wear jewelry can be diverse and may have nothing to do with your perceptions. Does that make sense?

Yes that makes sense ...to a degree. There's a few exceptions. But if a married guy has no legit reason NOT to wear his ring then he should wear it.

And thank you Selek for agreeing with me.

[altersteve]

I don't mind watches, but I HATE wearing rings. Being married is gonna suck.

[Yirgacheffe]

I don't think there's hardly any non member guys who would want to date a Mormon girl, knowing full well we don't drink, smoke, do drugs or 'fool around'...all those things are the norm for the majority of men out side the church.

Drug use and smoking are certainly not the norm for non members, even alcohol use isn't the "norm", though some may have a drink occasionally. As to ."knowing full well we don't drink, smoke, do drugs or 'fool around'" no one I've ever run into has cared one whit that I don't smoke or drink. Drug use, well I can't say I know anyone currently who uses drugs, in the past I've known of people who did drugs but never spent time with them they may have cared that I didn't do them. 'Fooling around' is something I really don't care to hear about from others so I don't know how "norm" it is, I'd guess it is the norm, though most of my family and friends waited till they were married.

[Nominee]

I don't mind watches, but I HATE wearing rings. Being married is gonna suck.

Haha ha! You are too funny!

[Deborah]

I don't think there's hardly any non member guys who would want to date a Mormon girl, knowing full well we don't drink, smoke, do drugs or 'fool around'...all those things are the norm for the majority of men out side the church.

You'd be surprised. I dated a lot of non-LDS men. They always knew up front I didn't do any of those things and they were ok with that. At least until the 4th date. I guess at that point they figured all the money they spent taking me out wasn't going to get what they wanted after all. It is funny because it was always 4 dates. I wonder if there's a secret 4 date code.

[bluebell]

I don't mind watches, but I HATE wearing rings. Being married is gonna suck.

You could be like my hubby and i-neither of us hardly ever wear our rings.

Rings drive me crazy so i take them off the second i get in the house and only put them on right before i leave. That means that i often forget. My husband is a mechanic and so he doesn't wear his out of safety and so he almost always forgets as well.

People probably think we're weird but it's so normal by now i don't even think about it!

[Nominee]

Drug use and smoking are certainly not the norm for non members, even alcohol use isn't the "norm", though some may have a drink occasionally. As to ."knowing full well we don't drink, smoke, do drugs or 'fool around'" no one I've ever run into has cared one whit that I don't smoke or drink. Drug use, well I can't say I know anyone currently who uses drugs, in the past I've known of people who did drugs but never spent time with them they may have cared that I didn't do them. 'Fooling around' is something I really don't care to hear about from others so I don't know how "norm" it is, I'd guess it is the norm, though most of my family and friends waited till they were married.

Alcohol use is the "norm." It is part of our society. It is even considered part of a coming of age for teenagers beneath legal drinking age but is looked on like one of the 'oh, foolish teenagers' type situations. It is extremely mainstream celebration material. Alcohol is everywhere! An most people do not see anything wrong with having a drink every once in awhile which is VERY different from a person who can have a serious conversation with friends as to whether we should use vanilla in baking because of the alcohol content. As far as possible non-member dates caring whether I drink or smoke ~ It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't care a whit but I care whether I have those influences inescapably in my life and they might care about that. I think you make a good point there, Why would I want to be with anyone who doesn't care one whit whether or not I damage myself? And again, with the drugs ~ it's not just whether that non-member date may care about what choices I make in life, it is because I care about what choices I make in life and would want someone else that cares about what I expose myself, my family, my children to also. "Foolin' around" is disturbingly the norm! Flip on the Disney channel and watch the 12 year olds build meaningful relationships with a kiss. It's horrifying how normal it is to fool around but sadly that is a problem in the church as well but not to the same extreme. Wait, what do you mean "foolin' around?!" Because it shouldn't be normal for LDS to be having heavy make out sessions with dates but you are talking about waiting until being married. Well, either way, it is still the norm in our society to possibly end up having sex with your date. TV is the worst for letting us see our standards.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Nominee

[Hestia]

The supply of Mormon uteruses is not an unlimited resource, and women have a ticking fertility clock.

Cobalt, you continue to be offensive in your responses. Take a break from this thread.

[Senator]

Yes that makes sense ...to a degree. There's a few exceptions. But if a married guy has no legit reason NOT to wear his ring then he should wear it.

And thank you Selek for agreeing with me.

Well, you are of course free to your opinion. But it's not that big a deal. I lost my band 18 years ago and never replaced it. The Mrs. doesn't care and I would rather not wear a ring, as I find them uncomfortable, so I don't wear one.

[frankenstein]

A ring almost seems, in some instances, a form of idol worship or graven images.

Ginger seems to prefer men wear rings so that she can more easily identify who is "free" to flirt with, presumably Ginger is in the market for a mate.

As to the utility and purpose of a ring, it is just a piece of metal. A piece of metal that has been forced upon society by an large by corporations. However almost everyday we see that a "ring" is no protection to fidelity or other commitments.

[Duncan]

I see rings as hands off because they are married. its the ones that don't that can throw you for a loop, unless you know they are married

[altersteve]

I see rings as hands off because they are married. its the ones that don't that can throw you for a loop, unless you know they are married

Was this supposed to be a pun? Because I thought it was hilarious for some reason.

[Darth_Bill]

My wife and I don't wear our rings. We trust each other so there isn't a problem. It isn't part of the LDS marriage ceremony either, but whatever. Are rings part of the western culture? What are the traditions in other countries?

[Duncan]

Was this supposed to be a pun? Because I thought it was hilarious for some reason.

guilty as charged!

[GingerRed]

I see rings as hands off because they are married. its the ones that don't that can throw you for a loop, unless you know they are married

Exactly!!!

[cinepro]

You'd be surprised. I dated a lot of non-LDS men. They always knew up front I didn't do any of those things and they were ok with that. At least until the 4th date. I guess at that point they figured all the money they spent taking me out wasn't going to get what they wanted after all. It is funny because it was always 4 dates. I wonder if there's a secret 4 date code.

My wife and I watch the ABC show "Pan-am", which is set in the early 1960's. While the show has had its share of unmarried characters hooking up, the last episode had a single adult guy dating a single adult woman, and the woman refused to let the guy up to her apartment (much to his chagrin). By the end of the show, the guy had decided to propose to this woman, and I commented how unusual it was to see a woman making the decision to wait until marriage for sex on a TV show.

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Then the teaser for the next episode reveals that the woman is secretly a lesbian....so whatever.

Edited January 11, 2012 by cinepro

[GingerRed]

Ginger seems to prefer men wear rings so that she can more easily identify who is "free" to flirt with, presumably Ginger is in the market for a mate.

Yes I am 'in the market'... However, if it happens it happens. If it don't, it don't. I'm to the point now where I am well aware of the fact that my chances of marrying anytime in the near future, is pretty next to nothing. The Lord didn't give me all the main ingredients to catch a fellers eye......tall, blond, drop dead gorgeous, skinny and stacked. If you lack even one of those, you'll probably get passed over by most men.

Someone mentioned earlier about the singles wards being kinda a watering hole for the worst of the LDS single men. ...the wierdos, the perverts, the stalkers, the unworthy, the bitter-against -women, etc. I've seen a lot of that too! Provo had a real nice singles ward for the 31 and up several years ago. I attended it for 7 years straight. It started out great with an awesome bishop! ( to me a good bishop can make or break a singles ward) But slowly it went downhill when that awesome bishop got called away. The subsequent bisops after that, didn't quite know what to do with us and folks begin to leave. Then it got dissolved and we all got kicked out back to our family wards. Was a sad day.

The family ward I got to now has very few singles over 40. And we dont' really associate much with each other. Thats the worst part of going to a family ward for me. I go alone, sit alone, no one to talk to. The people there are friendly enough....just not enough to care that they see me every Sun sitting alone. I love church, but it can be a lonely experiance.

[Yirgacheffe]

Alcohol use is the "norm." It is part of our society. It is even considered part of a coming of age for teenagers beneath legal drinking age but is looked on like one of the 'oh, foolish teenagers' type situations. It is extremely mainstream celebration material. Alcohol is everywhere! An most people do not see anything wrong with having a drink every once in awhile which is VERY different from a person who can have a serious conversation with friends as to whether we should use vanilla in baking because of the alcohol content. As far as possible non-member dates caring whether I drink or smoke ~ It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't care a whit but I care whether I have those influences inescapably in my life and they might care about that. I think you make a good point there, Why would I want to be with anyone who doesn't care one whit whether or not I damage myself? And again, with the drugs ~ it's not just whether that non-member date may care about what choices I make in life, it is because I care about what choices I make in life and would want someone else that cares about what I expose myself, my family, my children to also. "Foolin' around" is disturbingly the norm! Flip on the Disney channel and watch the 12 year olds build meaningful relationships with a kiss. It's horrifying how normal it is to fool around but sadly that is a problem in the church as well but not to the same extreme. Wait, what do you mean "foolin' around?!" Because it shouldn't be normal for LDS to be having heavy make out sessions with dates but you are talking about waiting until being married. Well, either way, it is still the norm in our society to possibly end up having sex with your date. TV is the worst for letting us see our standards.

But then you didn't say you'd like to date a non member, GR did and implied that she would be considered abnormal for not drinking, smoking, doing drugs, or 'fooling around'. I didn't say people cared whether or not one smoked and drank, I said no one cares if someone does not smoke or drink. It's considered perfectly normal not to do either. Though when it comes to smoking, it's generally considered abnormal to smoke. Just about everyone one I know is a non-smoker or an ex-smoker and those that do smoke go to great pains to hide it. With alcohol while it may be everywhere that doesn't mean that most people are drinking. In my experience, those with friends, family, and neighborhood events, and also working as a waitress, most people don't drink. As a waitress I was quite aware of who was drinking and how much they consuming.

GingerRed didn't say what was meant by fooling around, I would include heavy make out sessions though. As for the Disney channel aside from the whole making out thing I don't like shows that portray snarky, mean, and taunting family relationships. I don't want my children treating each other the way many of those shows portray and I certainly don't need the smart aleky behavior shown directed at me, so off with the Disney channel (and most others).

[Damien the Leper]

The Church will continue to stand for truth and righteousness, and teach its clear moral principles, and will ask neither your permission to do so nor your approval therefor.

Regards,

Pahoran

I have no desire to give the church any approval or permission concerning any issue. Nor do I need the church's approval or permission either. I separate the church from God and leave all things to God. The church is not God but another, of many, representatives of God.

[Sky]

I have no desire to give the church any approval or permission concerning any issue. Nor do I need the church's approval or permission either. I separate the church from God and leave all things to God. The church is not God but another, of many, representatives of God.

I like you, but I think you’ve got a lot of erroneous ideas. I can see how they are pleasing to the carnal mind.

Amos 3: 7 comes to mind:

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, ^abut he ^brevealeth his ^csecret unto his servants the ^dprophets.

And it just so happens that the president of the LDS Church is a prophet, whether you choose to accept it or not.

[Damien the Leper]

I like you, but I think you’ve got a lot of erroneous ideas. I can see how they are pleasing to the carnal mind.

Amos 3: 7 comes to mind:

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, ^abut he ^brevealeth his ^csecret unto his servants the ^dprophets.

And it just so happens that the president of the LDS Church is a prophet, whether you choose to accept it or not.

Oh boy. I like you as well. But I think you lean to heavily on traditional Mormonism and Christology. I much prefer the Emergent Movement...I like emerging. The Reformation was Emergent until they stopped Reforming and Emerging.

But this could also be seen as another erroneous idea to you.

[The_RealEnigma]

A recent study showed that approximately 60 percent of Utah Mormons are women, up from 52.5 percent two decades ago. http://www.sltrib.co...mormon.html.csp

I wouldn’t be surprised if the gender gap is even more pronounced in other parts of the world. For example, I served a mission in Sendai, Japan in the 90’s and in every ward or branch I served in, the women outnumbered the men by significant numbers.

As a mother of three daughters, this concerns me a little. It appears that many LDS women will now have to marry outside their faith or choose not to marry.

Solutions? Future implications?

You make a valid point, however the saving grace for many sisters (provided they are living rightously) is that if they are unable to marry though no fault of their own they will not be punished for not having gotten married. In reality who it hurts most is Brotheren like me who have opted out of marriage for years and who will have to one day stand before the Lord and explain why when there were so many rightious women in the Church did I choose to act selfishly and not get to know one of them? I am not trying to make light of the situation these sisters are in, oh no, no, No! In fact my heart goes out to them because depending on where they live they will be under even greater pressure to find an LDS man and may feel like they have to settle for less in order to get married.

At the same time they will be being pressured by the world not to get married, the world will tell them: "You don't need a Man, a man will just prevent you from living your life and having whatever you want and can't possibly make you happy".

I myself have been guilty of the reverse but oh well.

[Ahab]

A recent study showed that approximately 60 percent of Utah Mormons are women, up from 52.5 percent two decades ago. http://www.sltrib.co...mormon.html.csp

I wouldn’t be surprised if the gender gap is even more pronounced in other parts of the world. For example, I served a mission in Sendai, Japan in the 90’s and in every ward or branch I served in, the women outnumbered the men by significant numbers.

As a mother of three daughters, this concerns me a little. It appears that many LDS women will now have to marry outside their faith or choose not to marry.

... or be a really good missionary to enough men until she finds one she wants to marry, after he has joined the Church.

Solutions? Future implications?

Have more faith in the power of God through women. I was "caught" by a female missionary, and she is still awesome!