Gender Gap Widens In The Church

[Sky]

Fron the BYU Daily Universe:

Online LDS dating sites grow in popularity

[Duncan]

Fron the BYU Daily Universe:

Online LDS dating sites grow in popularity

those could work if you live in areas with a lot of members but if you live in say North Battleford, Sask, you either have to move (this creating another set of issues) or wait around or do something because long distance dating isn't for everyone

[katherine the great]

The older the men get, the more they want some young blond trophy on thier arm! 50 year old guys just don't want 50 year old women!

Personally, I find guys like that very immature and unattractive--even if they are technically "hot" and fun and all that. My dad is that kind of a guy. My mom was several years younger than him. His second wife was 20 years younger than him and his third wife was THIRTY years younger than him! I didn't raise him very well! (but somehow I still love him very much.)

[Sky]

those could work if you live in areas with a lot of members but if you live in say North Battleford, Sask, you either have to move (this creating another set of issues) or wait around or do something because long distance dating isn't for everyone

At least the situation isn't hopeless.

[Deborah]

When I first became single after 12 years of marriage I found a group of other singles and we with our children formed our own family. We had family home evening weekly with pot luck dinners, we went hiking a lot and of course went to the dances and just hung out together and even went to exercise classes together. We didn't even live in the same city, but in Calif everything is a freeway away. The kids loved our FHE and hiking adventures. I kind of long for those days but most of my friends ended up getting married and of course we drifted apart, and we got old.

Instead of waiting for someone else to start an activity those who are single can just start inviting people to go places. I'm at an age now where I have no interest in that but I don't know what I would have done without my network of friends when I was a young divorcee.

[Duncan]

At least the situation isn't hopeless.

it would work if nothing else just to talk to someone your own age!

[Cobalt-70]

You are probably right. It just seems more than a litte discouraging to me that many LDS women will have to marry outside the LDS faith or not marry at all. I would be very sad if this happened to my daughters.

More likely, given that a large number of even Mormon marriages end in divorce, it means that Mormon women will be single for a greater proportion of their lives than men will, and women will on average marry later than men. That raises a problem with bearing children, given that women have ticking fertility clocks. Maybe artificial insemination is not such a bad idea. Is it worse for a single women to raise a child in the church by herself, or not to have any children ever? Also, what if two single (not necessarily lesbian) Mormon women just decide to get together and share the duties of raising children in the church? If one of them later gets hetero-married, there is a built-in aunt/godmother relationship.

Just thinking outside the box.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[GingerRed]

Oops! Double post!

Edited January 11, 2012 by GingerRed

[GingerRed]

One problem I see with the single over 30's who are almost miraculosuly still active in the Church is the leap to the "family" ward. Unless you have stuck around for awhile and got to know people you really don't know who's married or not. You definately don't want to be unwittingly hitting on a married person and then find out "what you're married?...now, that's appalling!"

Oh ain't THAT the truth!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize how many married LDS men do NOT wear their wedding rings???

TOO many! No way would the man I'm married to, run around wiithout his ring on! There's no excuse anymore....industrial rings are made for most workplaces....if they don't fit, get it resized....unless a job absolutely forbids rings on, then it goes right back on at home. so yeah, looking around a family ward, you think there's all these appealing men who dont have rings on...you sure as heck dont want to risk flirting or making eye contact with a married man!!

The widower I was dating even still had his ring on! (his wife passed 5 years ago) but I was too afraid to ask him to remove it while we were together, for fear of offending him. But it made me uncomfortable.

[Pahoran]

More likely, given that a large number of even Mormon marriages end in divorce, it means that Mormon women will be single for a greater proportion of their lives than men will, and women will on average marry later than men.

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion.

That raises a problem with bearing children, given that women have ticking fertility clocks. Maybe artificial insemination is not such a bad idea. Is it worse for a single women to raise a child in the church by herself, or not to have any children ever? Also, what if two single (not necessarily lesbian) Mormon women just decide to get together and share the duties of raising children in the church? If one of them later gets hetero-married, there is a built-in aunt/godmother relationship.

Just thinking outside the box.

I suggest you read The Family: A Proclamation to the World. We don't have children for our sake, we have them for theirs. The ideal is for children to have a mother and a father, and while we can't always make that happen for every child, we certainly don't need to intentionally set out to bring children into homes where they can't have that.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Senator]

Oh ain't THAT the truth!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize how many married LDS men do NOT wear their wedding rings???

TOO many! No way would the man I'm married to, run around wiithout his ring on! There's no excuse anymore....

I didn't know it was a law...

[Deborah]

so yeah, looking around a family ward, you think there's all these appealing men who dont have rings on...you sure as heck dont want to risk flirting or making eye contact with a married man!!

Then there are the married men who act like they're single and go to singles activities and ask you on a date. I was dating such a man, who was very good looking and so nice. I described him to a friend who asked his name and she said, if he's single it's a surprise to his wife. I confronted him and he admitted he was single but thinking about divorce! Argggh!

And then there was the man who everyone knew was a polygamist. He came to all the dances and was a great dancer and I loved dancing with him but had smartened up enough to know never to go out with him. He told me he was going to be translated in a few years then he would come and find me. That was many years ago. Seriously, it's a scary world for singles, even in the church.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion.

I suggest you read The Family: A Proclamation to the World. We don't have children for our sake, we have them for theirs. The ideal is for children to have a mother and a father, and while we can't always make that happen for every child, we certainly don't need to intentionally set out to bring children into homes where they can't have that.

Regards,

Pahoran

Now you're thinking inside the box again. Forget the Proclamation and the institutional church for a moment and think about the women who for whatever reason are not or are unable to marry. Do they not deserve to experience the sanctity of motherhood?

Another example...a very close friend of mine had a sweet little girl with his wife a while back. Because of PPD, my friend's wife stopped going to church, moved out of the house and has no contact with my friend or their daughter. What does the Proclamation say about single fathers whose wives abandon them and their children? Or vice versa? The Proclamation is a generalized and calculated statement that give no regard to those who are in situations like I have described.

I understand that they FP and the 12 could not address every possible situation. However, leaving things up to the local authorities (Bishop or SP) isn't exactly the best case scenario because it is an outsider looking in style situation. I think discretion should be primarily left to the individual(s) intimately involved and God. No need for interference from a middle man.

[Damien the Leper]

Then there are the married men who act like they're single and go to singles activities and ask you on a date. I was dating such a man, who was very good looking and so nice. I described him to a friend who asked his name and she said, if he's single it's a surprise to his wife. I confronted him and he admitted he was single but thinking about divorce! Argggh!

And then there was the man who everyone knew was a polygamist. He came to all the dances and was a great dancer and I loved dancing with him but had smartened up enough to know never to go out with him. He told me he was going to be translated in a few years then he would come and find me. That was many years ago. Seriously, it's a scary world for singles, even in the church.

Ugh...this is a disaster! Sorry this happened to you.

[Pahoran]

Now you're thinking inside the box again.

No, I am relying upon correct principles.

Forget the Proclamation and the institutional church for a moment

Sorry. No can do.

and think about the women who for whatever reason are not or are unable to marry. Do they not deserve to experience the sanctity of motherhood?

You are changing the parameters of the discussion.

It is supremely selfish to suppose that we should have children so that women can experience something or other, without regard for what is best for the children. Children (even male children) are people too, and deserve better consideration than that.

Another example...a very close friend of mine had a sweet little girl with his wife a while back. Because of PPD, my friend's wife stopped going to church, moved out of the house and has no contact with my friend or their daughter. What does the Proclamation say about single fathers whose wives abandon them and their children? Or vice versa? The Proclamation is a generalized and calculated statement that give no regard to those who are in situations like I have described.

But it does take them into account, as did my post. Since there is no possible way to foresee something like that, apart from the general awareness that bad stuff sometimes happens, no blame attaches to the innocent parties. But it certainly does not follow from that that single ladies should all be trooping off to the nearest IVF clinic.

As I said, and you quoted, apparently without reading it:

I suggest you read The Family: A Proclamation to the World. We don't have children for our sake, we have them for theirs. The ideal is for children to have a mother and a father, and while we can't always make that happen for every child, we certainly don't need to intentionally set out to bring children into homes where they can't have that.

Since that directly addresses your examples, I'm surprised you didn't take that into account, or at least attempt to respond to it.

I understand that they FP and the 12 could not address every possible situation. However, leaving things up to the local authorities (Bishop or SP) isn't exactly the best case scenario because it is an outsider looking in style situation. I think discretion should be primarily left to the individual(s) intimately involved and God. No need for interference from a middle man.

In principle, I might be tempted to agree with you. But in practice, if the Church shut up about such things, the individuals would be left without any moral support, while being continually bombarded with immoral messages, including (but not limited) to those who have their own aims that would be served by weakening the moral standing of the Church and other conservative voices. Your proposal to muzzle the Church would only work if there were also a way to muzzle the world.

Got any good ideas for how we can do that?

The Church will continue to stand for truth and righteousness, and teach its clear moral principles, and will ask neither your permission to do so nor your approval therefor.

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited January 11, 2012 by Pahoran

[Cobalt-70]

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion [that women will on average marry later than men].

That's just how it has to be, statistically, if there are more women than men in the church, and these women are not marrying non-Mormons in droves. Some women will marry early, but for every one that marries early, there might be one that marries much later, because there are not enough good, non-creepy Mormon men to go around. Many of these women will end up marrying divorced men as their first marriage.

I suggest you read The Family: A Proclamation to the World. We don't have children for our sake, we have them for theirs. The ideal is for children to have a mother and a father, and while we can't always make that happen for every child, we certainly don't need to intentionally set out to bring children into homes where they can't have that.

But are you saying that it is better that a child not be born into a Mormon home, than that she be born to a single Mormon mother, or a two-mother Mormon household? The supply of Mormon uteruses is not an unlimited resource, and women have a ticking fertility clock.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Kenngo1969]

Then there are the married men who act like they're single and go to singles activities and ask you on a date. I was dating such a man, who was very good looking and so nice. I described him to a friend who asked his name and she said, if he's single it's a surprise to his wife. I confronted him and he admitted he was single but thinking about divorce! Argggh!

And then there was the man who everyone knew was a polygamist. He came to all the dances and was a great dancer and I loved dancing with him but had smartened up enough to know never to go out with him. He told me he was going to be translated in a few years then he would come and find me. That was many years ago. Seriously, it's a scary world for singles, even in the church.

Why don't we capitalize on all of this wackiness and produce a soap opera (we could air it on KBYU/BYU-TV and the Internet) called As The Ward Turns? Will Sally find out Bill's real marital status? Will little Ricky found out who his real father is? Find out on the next episode of As The Ward Turns!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Pahoran]

That's just how it has to be, statistically, if there are more women than men in the church, and these women are not marrying non-Mormons in droves. Some women will marry early, but for every one that marries early, there might be one that marries much later, because there are not enough good, non-creepy Mormon men to go around. Many of these women will end up marrying divorced men as their first marriage.

I see what you are saying. But assumptions do not always pan out in real life. When the supply of marriageable women outstrips the supply of marriageable men, presuming that both sides equally want to marry, the men have more bargaining power; and men prize youth almost as much as women prize earning ability in a potential marriage partner. Certainly, in most of the active LDS first marriages I know about, the brides have been 1-2 years younger than the grooms.

The only way to test your assumption would be to take some fairly large-scale statistical surveys. Are you aware of any?

But are you saying that it is better that a child not be born into a Mormon home, than that she be born to a single Mormon mother, or a two-mother Mormon household? The supply of Mormon uteruses is not an unlimited resource, and women have a ticking fertility clock.

I am unaware that the Church is operating under any imperative to maximise the productivity of "Mormon uteruses," the correct plural of which is uteri, just FYI. Your profound and pervasive cynicism is leading you to become increasingly crude. I recommend you reflect upon your style.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Deborah]

Why don't we capitalize on all of this wackiness and produce a soap opera (we could air it on KBYU/BYU-TV and the Internet) called As The Ward Turns?

My best friend and I often talked about the book we would write on all our experiences in the singles world of adults. We could tell some stories!

[Nathair/|\]

Why don't we capitalize on all of this wackiness and produce a soap opera (we could air it on KBYU/BYU-TV and the Internet) called As The Ward Turns? Will Sally find out Bill's real marital status? Will little Ricky found out who his real father is? Find out on the next episode of As The Ward Turns!

I'm afraid that title has already been taken.

[GingerRed]

I didn't know it was a law...

No of course it's not a 'law'.....just something I feel strongly about. To me, a man who won't wear his wedding ring, says to me:

I'm not proud of being my wife's husband...or I like looking like I'm not attached, so other women will flirt with me.....or I like feeling still 'single'.....

There's just something wrong with that....I doubt a lot of you married men would appreciate your wives never wearing THEIR wedding ring.... wouldn't that feel weird to you?

Anyway that's just MHO....

[selek1]

... I like looking like I'm not attached, so other women will flirt with me.....or I like feeling still 'single'.....

Actually, I had quite the opposite experience.

The moment I became "attached" to a woman, I suddenly became much more attractive to other women for some reason- including women who wouldn't give me the time of day before I was engaged.

Hmmm......

All that having been said, I tend to agree with you about a man wearing his wedding ring.

Unless there is a valid, practical reason (rings can interfere with or be dangerous in certain types of work, for instance) for a man not to wear his wedding band, then it should be on his finger where it belongs.

And his heart should be at home for the same reasons.

Edited January 11, 2012 by selek1

[Calm]

.I doubt a lot of you married men would appreciate your wives never wearing THEIR wedding ring.... wouldn't that feel weird to you?

Anyway that's just MHO....

I don't wear my wedding ring. Haven't since my first pregnancy when it became too uncomfortable to wear. Even after I lost the baby fat, I did not put it back on again because I had never enjoyed wearing it, never liked rings as they make me feel like my fingers have tourniquets around them even when they are very loose, I would take them off in my sleep or even when awake and talking I'd be fiddling round with them and next thing I know it, I can't find it having left it back on a table or counter or something. Husband encouraged me not to feel bad about it because he knew how much I liked wearing it in theory, but just hated it in practice (having to help me look for it with me in a panic several times helped modify his opinion in all probability as well).

When I want to wear it, I put it on a chain for my neck. My husband wore his longer than I wore mine, but he did eventually gain enough weight that it became slightly uncomfortable so he asked me if I'd mind him taking it off, which I didn't. I shall have to ask if he ever experienced any flirting that was uncomfortable. I have only experienced it once and the guy had seen me with my husband and I talked a great deal about him during our discussion so I don't think a ring would have made any difference.

Edited January 11, 2012 by calmoriah

[Yirgacheffe]

Actually I wouldn't mind dating a non-member. I don't know if I'd marry one though! LOL Wanting a temple marriage so bad, I would probably not consider it.

So it would be okay to lead a non member on?

[GingerRed]

So it would be okay to lead a non member on?

No.....but I would make it clear the first date that my religion means everything to me, including a temple marriage. If he is not okay with that, then that's fine. No non member guy has ever asked me out yet, so I doubt I'll have to worry about that situation arising I don't think there's hardly any non member guys who would want to date a Mormon girl, knowing full well we don't drink, smoke, do drugs or 'fool around'...all those things are the norm for the majority of men out side the church. So I would think they would think a Mormon girl to be a total bore and too goody-goody for them.

( well except for Mudcat! lol Guess he likes us goody goody girls! lol)