Gender Gap Widens In The Church

[bcuzbcuz]

Seems like an ideal excuse to reinstate Polygamy...

I was waiting for that shoe to drop. No, you are entirely wrong. It's an ideal excuse for men to be more involved.

[Ahab]

I was waiting for that shoe to drop. No, you are entirely wrong. It's an ideal excuse for men to be more involved.

We're talking about women here. Women who want and/or need men.

What more do the women need to get the men involved in wanting and/or needing the women, in return?

Put up a sign, maybe?

WOMEN ARE HERE!

COME AND GET US!

[Nathair/|\]

... or be a really good missionary to enough men until she finds one she wants to marry, after he has joined the Church.

Have more faith in the power of God through women. I was "caught" by a female missionary, and she is still awesome!

I know the sisters on here always amaze me with their grace and their ability to make you feel loved even when you're wrong.

[Ahab]

I know the sisters on here always amaze me with their grace and their ability to make you feel loved even when you're wrong.

Yes, women are awesome, in general, and I thank God that we have them.

Now, hmm, what can we do to help other men who don't realize how wonderful the women are to do all that they can to get one?

... and, psst, btw, my problem in my younger life was how to choose only one from among so many.

... just like on restaurant menus and other such things, the more choices there are the longer it takes me to make my choice.

[Thankful]

I think we need to find out why the church is less welcoming to men, and go from there. I'm a woman, so going to ask men for suggestions on what we could do to help.

The church must not be meeting needs of men in some important ways. I suspect it's true that single men tend to leave by age 30. What can we do to help them stay?

Someone suggested celibacy requirements may be more hard on single men than women. That could be. I haven't seen the research.

Perhaps if we modeled more open acknowledgment of and recognition of sexual sin as common, able to be repented of, and not a deal breaker? If that's an issue, might it help? I wonder if some people just get discouraged, shamed, and fear it's too hard.

Could we talk approvingly about people who've repented of sexual sin? Could we believe their sins are TRULY remembered no more, instead of acting like they are "damaged goods," forever tarnished, for committing sin "next to murder?" Certainly we talk of the mercy and healing of Christ through the Atonement. But I think culturally our actions don't always reflect that.

My anecdotal experience also suggests that active, married LDS men are disaffecting and leaving the church at higher rates than in the past. (And certainly at higher rates than women.) Why do you think that is? What can we do to stop this exodus?

I'm not suggesting we change doctrine, but are there polices we could alter to make church more safe for men? What could we do differently as a Mormon culture to help the "least of these my brethren"?

I really don't know the answer, and wonder what you think.

P.S. Mudcat, Thank you for your post. My LDS husband has stopped believing and does not attend. (And hasn't for many years) I agree with your perception that marriages without two active LDS partners are treated as inferior. Thank you for your patience, good humor, and thick skin.

I've seen this behavior among religious "in groups" across many different religions. But we do to repent if and when we treat ANYONE as inferior.

[Duncan]

I think we need to find out why the church is less welcoming to men, and go from there. I'm a woman, so going to ask men for suggestions on what we could do to help.

The church must not be meeting needs of men in some important ways. I suspect it's true that single men tend to leave by age 30. What can we do to help them stay?

Someone suggested celibacy requirements may be more hard on single men than women. That could be. I haven't seen the research.

Perhaps if we modeled more open acknowledgment of and recognition of sexual sin as common, able to be repented of, and not a deal breaker? If that's an issue, might it help? I wonder if some people just get discouraged, shamed, and fear it's too hard.

Could we talk approvingly about people who've repented of sexual sin? Could we believe their sins are TRULY remembered no more, instead of acting like they are "damaged goods," forever tarnished, for committing sin "next to murder?" Certainly we talk of the mercy and healing of Christ through the Atonement. But I think culturally our actions don't always reflect that.

My anecdotal experience also suggests that active, married LDS men are disaffecting and leaving the church at higher rates than in the past. (And certainly at higher rates than women.) Why do you think that is? What can we do to stop this exodus?

I'm not suggesting we change doctrine, but are there polices we could alter to make church more safe for men? What could we do differently as a Mormon culture to help the "least of these my brethren"?

I really don't know the answer, and wonder what you think.

P.S. Mudcat, Thank you for your post. My LDS husband has stopped believing and does not attend. (And hasn't for many years) I agree with your perception that marriages without two active LDS partners are treated as inferior. Thank you for your patience, good humor, and thick skin.

I've seen this behavior among religious "in groups" across many different religions. But we do to repent if and when we treat ANYONE as inferior.

I am 34 and a single man and active and let me tellya I am a rare e-tee. I was married so maybe women see me as damaged goods I dunno or a last resort! Canada is in a different rodea circuit then say the US. All roads lead to Alberta, if you don't live and more Canadian Mormons don't (47 stakes in Canada with 20 in Alberta) then it is slim pickings, real slim

[bcuzbcuz]

I think we need to find out why the church is less welcoming to men, and go from there. I'm a woman, so going to ask men for suggestions on what we could do to help.

The church must not be meeting needs of men in some important ways. I suspect it's true that single men tend to leave by age 30. What can we do to help them stay?

Someone suggested celibacy requirements may be more hard on single men than women. That could be. I haven't seen the research.

Perhaps if we modeled more open acknowledgment of and recognition of sexual sin as common, able to be repented of, and not a deal breaker? If that's an issue, might it help? I wonder if some people just get discouraged, shamed, and fear it's too hard.

Could we talk approvingly about people who've repented of sexual sin? Could we believe their sins are TRULY remembered no more, instead of acting like they are "damaged goods," forever tarnished, for committing sin "next to murder?" Certainly we talk of the mercy and healing of Christ through the Atonement. But I think culturally our actions don't always reflect that.

My anecdotal experience also suggests that active, married LDS men are disaffecting and leaving the church at higher rates than in the past. (And certainly at higher rates than women.) Why do you think that is? What can we do to stop this exodus?

I'm not suggesting we change doctrine, but are there polices we could alter to make church more safe for men? What could we do differently as a Mormon culture to help the "least of these my brethren"?

I really don't know the answer, and wonder what you think.

P.S. Mudcat, Thank you for your post. My LDS husband has stopped believing and does not attend. (And hasn't for many years) I agree with your perception that marriages without two active LDS partners are treated as inferior. Thank you for your patience, good humor, and thick skin.

I've seen this behavior among religious "in groups" across many different religions. But we do to repent if and when we treat ANYONE as inferior.

Thank you, Thankful. A good post. I don't have any answers either, since I am a non-believer, as well. But even the non-attending, non-believing member still has a framework of concepts or ideas of how life should be. Although I no longer wanted to attend church, the concepts of marriage and family stayed with me. My own opinion is to ignore any and all who treat you, or speak of you, or your situation, as inferior. They literally do not know what they're talking about.

Marriage and companionship still function even when beliefs takes different paths. If you have children, all the same measures of good parenting still apply. What some members who are married, and both active, do not understand is, that talking negatively about ones partner is just as destructive in a marriage where faiths are different as it is destructive in a marriage where all the same doctrines are espoused.

I'm assuming this isn't the first time in your relationship that you and your husband have had different opinions. Life goes on. Good luck.

[bcuzbcuz]

I am 34 and a single man and active and let me tellya I am a rare e-tee. I was married so maybe women see me as damaged goods I dunno or a last resort! Canada is in a different rodea circuit then say the US. All roads lead to Alberta, if you don't live and more Canadian Mormons don't (47 stakes in Canada with 20 in Alberta) then it is slim pickings, real slim

Hey Duncan. I really do enjoy your input. If it's any comfort, I was a widower for 15 years, with 6 kids and a foster child. Some may have seen me as 'damaged goods'. Screw them. I found an absolutely fabulous woman on the internet. She loves dancing as I do, but even better, goes to car rallies (WRC) with me AND enjoys them. (all who read this and groan, "Yeah, sure she enjoys rallying, right," I have photos!!!) lol

I had to move to another country to marry her but it was worth it.

[Lost in Ohio]

As a father of 3 girls, I understand that it is a fine thing to set high standards for a future marriage partner and I certainly want the best for my girls. However, sometimes I wonder if it isn't also very easy to confuse high standards with judgementalism.

As a young man convert, in the military attending a YSA student ward, I felt ostracized by the single adult sisters because I was not a RM and due to my military obligation likely wouldn't be. It was in effect a go-no go for dating, much less a future together. I eventually stopped going. After a few years though I realized I was only hurting myself and mustered the courage to return. I will be forever grateful that I did because that year I met my wife, a Navy brat, who understood.

So, while I understand what the numbers say, I also wonder if some men are less active because they haven't passed 'the test' and given up and moved on.

Just my two cents.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Lost in Ohio

[Duncan]

As a father of 3 girls, I understand that it is a fine thing to set high standards for a future marriage partner and I certainly want the best for my girls. However, sometimes I wonder if it isn't also very easy to confuse high standards with judgementalism.

As a young man convert, in the military attending a YSA student ward, I felt ostracized by the single adult sisters because I was not a RM and due to my military obligation likely wouldn't be. It was in effect a go-no go for dating, much less a future together. I eventually stopped going. After a few years though I realized I was only hurting myself and mustered the courage to return. I will be forever grateful that I did because that year I met my wife, a Navy brat, who understood.

So, while I understand what the numbers say, I also wonder if some men are less active because they haven't passed 'the test' and given up and moved on.

Just my two cents.

Along those lines as well I have learned that men are fragile. If you attend a ward with a variety of men and some are more succesful then you right now you can easily think well why would she pick me over him? he has this and this and this and I don't or not yet anyways

[Ahab]

I think of it this way: When a man leaves the church it's because he doesn't know it is worth it to stay. The opportunities and blessings available through the Church can't be attained in any other way than through the priesthood, which requires membership in the Church, so when a man leaves he is essentially turning his back on all of those things he could have had if he had stayed, and stayed faithful.

So now, what to do about the women? For them there are also opportunities and blessings which can't be attained in any other way than through the Church, and some of those require them to have a husband with the priesthood of God, so how is a woman going to attain those things she needs the priesthood for if she doesn't have a husband with the priesthood? She can leave the Church too, but then she would also be turning her back on all of the blessings she otherwise could have had which she can't get in any other way.

Who knows, maybe someday polygamy will be reinstated again, with God's approval, just because that may be the only way for a woman to have a husband with the priesthood. God won't force a man to stay in the Church, or to honor his priesthood, so I'm sure God will provide at least one way for all women to have a husband with the priesthood, if she wants one.

God never said following him and his counsel would be easy, but it is or will be worth it to everyone who wants to.

[bcuzbcuz]

My Mom remarried when she was 85, that's eighty-five!!!!! She got her husband to join the church, then got sealed in the temple. Patience IS a virtue.

[Ahab]

Along those lines as well I have learned that men are fragile. If you attend a ward with a variety of men and some are more succesful then you right now you can easily think well why would she pick me over him? he has this and this and this and I don't or not yet anyways

the reason she would is because she believes YOU are a better match for her than that other guy, even with all of his "stuff".

You just have to have the right stuff for the right woman. Not all women are all that interested in material things, and some women aren't all that interested in a man's character either if he has a lot of other "stuff" she likes better than his character.

Being the better man (for a particular woman) is all about just having what it takes to get her interest.

Materially, I was very poor when I married, but she was rich, both in character and materially, so now I have the best of both worlds... and fortunately for me she still thinks I am a "perfect" match for her.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Ahab

[Kenngo1969]

You make a valid point, however the saving grace for many sisters (provided they are living rightously) is that if they are unable to marry though no fault of their own they will not be punished for not having gotten married. In reality who it hurts most is Brotheren like me who have opted out of marriage for years and who will have to one day stand before the Lord and explain why when there were so many rightious women in the Church did I choose to act selfishly and not get to know one of them? ...

This attitude chaps me a little (no offense; you might be a great guy; it's so hard to tell in cyberspace ). It removes both parties' agency from the equation. It's as though solving the problem should be as simple as hitting someone over the head, being sealed to her while she's unconscious, and ... well, she'll get used to the idea eventually after she wakes up!

It takes two to tango. I'm sorry, but If nobody wants to tango with me, that's not my problem.

[Duncan]

the reason she would is because she believes YOU are a better match for her than that other guy, even with all of his "stuff".

You just have to have the right stuff for the right woman. Not all women are all that interested in material things, and some women aren't all that interested in a man's character either if he has a lot of other "stuff" she likes better than his character.

Being the better man (for a particular woman) is all about just having what it takes to get her interest.

Materially, I was very poor when I married, but she was rich, both in character and materially, so now I have the best of both worlds... and fortunately for me she still thinks I am a "perfect" match for her.

yeah, no I wasn't implying that all women are attracted to material things! but in a guy's mind you can easily think that they would be if you look around at other guy's and what they offer and you think why me over him?

[Kenngo1969]

Nobody ever does. We grow up talking about eternal marriage and making Christmas wish lists of everything we want our spouse to be for us. We talk about how special we are as sons/daughters of our Heavenly Father and how we only deserve the very best in a spouse. We build our self esteems often times telling ourselves we're all that when we're not. Then we set our expectations and demand, demand, demand, determined to get our way by whatever means necessary. Add the current law of no fault divorce and the marriage contract isn't much different than having a boyfriend/girlfriend who you can dismiss and replace easier than an at will employee. It stands to reason that even the best matched marriages fail.

Yup, I've set the bar impossibly high: I have one indispensible, non-negotiable qualification: she must reciprocate my interest! (Easier said than done/found ... )

[Duncan]

Yup, I've set the bar impossibly high: I have one indispensible, non-negotiable qualification: she must reciprocate my interest! (Easier said than done/found ... )

and the older you get I wonder if the list gets longer just to make the wait worth it. I feel for people who were or are always a bridesmaid but never a bride

[blackstrap]

Hey Duncan, just say the word and I will look for a job for you out here in the 'sticks' ...er...stakes of Zion. Sometimes you just gotta go where the resources are. You can always move back to ..brrrr...Winnipeg after you have found your companion and your fortune out here.

[Duncan]

Hey Duncan, just say the word and I will look for a job for you out here in the 'sticks' ...er...stakes of Zion. Sometimes you just gotta go where the resources are. You can always move back to ..brrrr...Winnipeg after you have found your companion and your fortune out here.

well! I may have to take you up on your offer! I do have some ladies in mind out in Alberta!

[Kenngo1969]

and the older you get I wonder if the list gets longer just to make the wait worth it. I feel for people who were or are always a bridesmaid but never a bride

You think my one-qualification list is too long and unreasonable, eh? To each, his own!

[blackstrap]

An older friend of mine recently went to the Philipines to get a bride. I am told one will be very spoiled by the ladies from there. Mind you , that's a bit further away than Alberta ,but apparently there are lots of LDS ladies to choose from.

[Duncan]

An older friend of mine recently went to the Philipines to get a bride. I am told one will be very spoiled by the ladies from there. Mind you , that's a bit further away than Alberta ,but apparently there are lots of LDS ladies to choose from.

I have a 9yr old! from a previous marriage. My parents favourite song for me is Jefferson Airplane's "Somebody to Love"-how they even know about that song is a mystery...

FWIW I am kinda in Dutch with the Local leadership here over missionary work... and one of my Stake Pres. (who lived in Calgary and whom I love the guy) told me that I would be for sure kicked out of the Church if I lived in Calgary!!! and I want to avoid that!

Edited November 17, 2012 by Duncan

[Yirgacheffe]

An older friend of mine recently went to the Philipines to get a bride. I am told one will be very spoiled by the ladies from there. Mind you , that's a bit further away than Alberta ,but apparently there are lots of LDS ladies to choose from.

That sounds absolutely horrid.

[mbh26]

Yup, I've set the bar impossibly high: I have one indispensible, non-negotiable qualification: she must reciprocate my interest! (Easier said than done/found ... )

I guess I should qualify my statement since it only takes one person like the one I described to kill any chance of a relationship. Too many people set their expectations too high.

[TAO]

Haha yeah. Basically, two dedicated people can almost always if not always make it work. People who aren't fully dedicated are going to have a harder time. That's why it's so important to find a reciprocating hubby or wife =).