Japan Earthquake and Tsunami Outcome Orchestrated by The Lord

[Pahoran]

Are you saying that you see nothing inappropriate with the wording of the last paragraph of the statement of the area presidency as contained in the OP?

Of course not. We're not bigots desperately looking for a pretext to justify our hatred.

In what possible context is it appropriate to claim on a publicly accessible website that God orchestrated a miracle especially for your tribe in the face of the death and destruction to others?

Ah, "tribe." You know, there's nothing like neutral language to demonstrate your impartiality; and that prejudicially contemptuous barf was nothing like neutral language.

That aside, the answer to your question is: In any context where haters don't get to censor believers when they attempt to express their belief.

Understood?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Your own logic against the Church's statement is petty and simpleton. Shame on you!

Shame? You appear to assume that Foxtrot is capable of shame.

But don't worry; he's just having a Luke 6:45 moment.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Kenngo1969]

[After positing a hypothetical in which Muslims ascribe miraculous protection to Allah] Since you do not believe in Allah

[44Foxtrot]

Of course not. We're not bigots desperately looking for a pretext to justify our hatred.

Ah, "tribe." You know, there's nothing like neutral language to demonstrate your impartiality; and that prejudicially contemptuous barf was nothing like neutral language.

That aside, the answer to your question is: In any context where haters don't get to censor believers when they attempt to express their belief.

Understood?

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran,

As I review this thread, I see that the term "hatred" is yours and not mine. I have never stated, or to my knowledge even implied, that I hate Mormons. With me as the sole exception, my entire family is either TBM or NOM.

What I do say, and am admittedly sensitive to, is that many (if not most) Mormons often have no idea how they are perceived in the world outside of Utah and Southern Idaho. I think most would be appalled to hear what people really think of the Church and its members outside of the Moridor.

When I see threads on a Mormon apologetics board like the one by Rob Bowman claiming that he carries the DNA of God in his veins, or see the kind of insensitive wording used in the subject press release, I can't help but think that sometimes Mormons are their own worst enemies.

Your attribution of hatred where none was expressed, or even implied, is but another example.

[Jeff K.]

I think the issue isn't the email, but the manner in which some people allow their bigotry to decide how they see the world. Foxtrot's view is so warped, that even the thankfulness of miracles in tragedy is nothing more than an opportunity for him to curse religion and those who take comfort in it.

I think we would do well to remember this thread next time foxtrot attempts to make a pseudo objective observation which is little more than a deception in hopes of undermining the faith of others. He is not interested in our point of view, nor is he interesting in a critique. Anything you say he will twist to mean the worst thing possible. Hate is what drives him.

[44Foxtrot]

Hate is what drives him.

Jeff,

Congratulations.

You just joined Pahoran as one who attributes "hate" where none is expressed or implied.

For one who proclaims a religion that is supposed to be be all about love and tolerance, you seem to use the term "hate" a great deal.

On the other hand, I don't believe that I have ever used that term on this board.

Ever wonder why that is?

[TAO]

Jeff,

Congratulations.

You just joined Pahoran as one who attributes "hate" where none is expressed or implied.

Foxtrot, when you take something unintentional, and turn it into something it is not, you will be called a hater.

So really... it'd be best just to apologize, or else you will keep getting flak... because you didn't do something correct.

I'd fix it. If you do, people won't be concerned so much.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

As I review this thread, I see that the term "hatred" is yours and not mine. I have never stated, or to my knowledge even implied, that I hate Mormons. With me as the sole exception, my entire family is either TBM or NOM.

"TBM" is a term of derision, which explains why you are comfortable with it.

Is that something like "I'm no racist; some of my best friends are black?"

What I do say, and am admittedly sensitive to, is that many (if not most) Mormons often have no idea how they are perceived in the world outside of Utah and Southern Idaho. I think most would be appalled to hear what people really think of the Church and its members outside of the Moridor.

"The Moridor." Is that another term of affection, is it?

So you're telling us that you are really trying to help us? You want people to think well of us, which explains your diligent internet search for something you could find fault with; is that it?

Incidentally: since I live about as far away from Utah and Idaho as it is possible to get and still be on dry land, I really have a fair idea how people in "the world outside" those places regard us. But I don't know what you are waffling about.

When I see threads on a Mormon apologetics board like the one by Rob Bowman claiming that he carries the DNA of God in his veins,

Did he really say that? That's quite interesting, considering that he's no more a Mormon than you are.

or see the kind of insensitive wording used in the subject press release,

"Insensitive?" What did you want them to say?

"We already know that all our missionaries are safe. In the circumstances, we think that's remarkable, but despite the fact that we believe in a God who answers prayers, we won't say anything about that in case some hypervigilant critic is looking for a pretext to work himself into a tizzy?"

I can't help but think that sometimes Mormons are their own worst enemies.

And so, that arouses your competitive zeal to try to outdo us?

Jeff,

Congratulations.

You just joined Pahoran as one who attributes "hate" where none is expressed or implied.

For one who proclaims a religion that is supposed to be be all about love and tolerance, you seem to use the term "hate" a great deal.

On the other hand, I don't believe that I have ever used that term on this board.

Ever wonder why that is?

Perhaps because those who hate are careful to avoid that word, since it gives the game away. The ADL frequently identify sources of hatred who generally do not describe themselves as such.

For example: I frequently hear statements attributed to KKK leaders to the effect that "We don't hate them <racial epithet here>, we're just in favour of" something or other. Should I take them at their word? Just like you, they haven't said they hate anybody....

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hamba Tuhan]

What I do say, and am admittedly sensitive to, is that many (if not most) Mormons often have no idea how they are perceived in the world outside of Utah and Southern Idaho. I think most would be appalled to hear what people really think of the Church and its members outside of the Moridor.

So the vast majority of Latter-day Saints, who actually live outside of Utah and Southern Idaho, have no idea how they are perceived where they actually live but somehow know (and only know) how they are pereceived where they don't live?

I'd fix it. If you do, people won't be concerned so much.

Sadly, our friend Foxtrot seems to have no idea how his words/actions are perceived outside his own head. I fear he may be his own worst enemy.

[rpn]

The OP quotation, wasn't saying that God orchestrated anything other than efforts to find the missionaries.

[MorningStar]

Try another scenario, Foxtrot. Let's say a principal of a school writes a similar letter stating all of the children in the school have been accounted for. Is that hubris? Do you find that offensive? Do you think the principal is arrogant or that he or she thinks the children are favored? Of it is an awesome and wonderful thing that he or she can report to the parents, "All of your children have been found!"

With communication being so limited, it is amazing that everyone was able to report back. Anyone who is in charge of ensuring the safety of any group of people is going to be so overjoyed to be able to say that all of them are OK.

[cinepro]

I have an employee that works for me whose father lives in northern Japan. By the end of the workday on Friday, she still hadn't heard from him.

Obviously many factors affect her father's disposition following the earthquake. But just so I'm clear, would it be logical to assume that if her father were serving a mission for the Church, he would have a greater likelihood of being in good health following the quake? How about if he were just a regular member of the Church? How about if he were a non-LDS Christian, compared to being a member of Japan's predominant Shinto/Buddhist religion?

[44Foxtrot]

"TBM" is a term of derision, which explains why you are comfortable with it.

Is that something like "I'm no racist; some of my best friends are black?"

"The Moridor." Is that another term of affection, is it?

So you're telling us that you are really trying to help us? You want people to think well of us, which explains your diligent internet search for something you could find fault with; is that it?

Incidentally: since I live about as far away from Utah and Idaho as it is possible to get and still be on dry land, I really have a fair idea how people in "the world outside" those places regard us. But I don't know what you are waffling about.

Did he really say that? That's quite interesting, considering that he's no more a Mormon than you are.

"Insensitive?" What did you want them to say?

"We already know that all our missionaries are safe. In the circumstances, we think that's remarkable, but despite the fact that we believe in a God who answers prayers, we won't say anything about that in case some hypervigilant critic is looking for a pretext to work himself into a tizzy?"

And so, that arouses your competitive zeal to try to outdo us?

Perhaps because those who hate are careful to avoid that word, since it gives the game away. The ADL frequently identify sources of hatred who generally do not describe themselves as such.

For example: I frequently hear statements attributed to KKK leaders to the effect that "We don't hate them <racial epithet here>, we're just in favour of" something or other. Should I take them at their word? Just like you, they haven't said they hate anybody....

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran,

You clearly read my post about my TBM/NOM family and so it would seem that you are accusing me of hating my own wife and children. Do you really think that this is the case?

Turns out that my wife and I have a fully intact, well educated and close knit family of which we are very proud.

(BTW: TBM means "true believing Mormon" and like NOM, is not derogatory in any way.)

Also, the thread attributed to Rob Bowman should have been attributed to Rob Osborn. Sorry, my mistake.

[CQUIRK]

You clearly read my post about my TBM/NOM family and so it would seem that you are accusing me of hating my own wife and children. Do you really think that this is the case?

I'm sure you don't. You just hate their church.

[44Foxtrot]

Try another scenario, Foxtrot. Let's say a principal of a school writes a similar letter stating all of the children in the school have been accounted for. Is that hubris? Do you find that offensive? Do you think the principal is arrogant or that he or she thinks the children are favored? Of it is an awesome and wonderful thing that he or she can report to the parents, "All of your children have been found!"

With communication being so limited, it is amazing that everyone was able to report back. Anyone who is in charge of ensuring the safety of any group of people is going to be so overjoyed to be able to say that all of them are OK.

It is certainly offensive if the principal claims in the letter that God orchestrated the events of the day so that the specific children in the class would all be saved when thousand of others are known to have died, and then makes that letter public on the internet.

How can you think otherwise?

[44Foxtrot]

I'm sure you don't. You just hate their church.

Let us say that, based on the objective evidence and personal experience (theirs and mine), I do not hold their Church in the highest regard.

[Duncan]

Let us not forget this article put out by the Church,

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/60598/Church-assesses-needs-after-Japan-quake-tsunami.html

"Local Church leaders are working to contact all members"

wait there is more

"We are also assessing how the Church might help meet the needs of people affected by the earthquake and tsunami".

So based on these two statements the Church is helping the members and non-members and based on the earlier article the missionaries are fine

[Daniel Peterson]

Here's something I posted earlier today on another board where mostly secular critics were hyperventilating about the evils of the Japan area presidency's statement:

This statement was apparently released Saturday morning, Utah time, specifically to announce that the missionaries in the Japan Sendai Mission had all been accounted for, and that all are safe. (The other missions had previously reported their missionaries safe, but this one, the mission most affected by the quake and the tsunami, had lagged behind since most means of communication were down.)

Has the Japan area presidency issued no other statements on the disaster? It's possible, I suppose, but it seems unlikely, since the quake occurred at roughly 10:56 PM on Thursday night, Utah time. They may have been utterly silent for a day and a half, but I doubt it.

The fact that this statement, released roughly thirty-six hours after the disaster hit and specifically addressing the question of the safety of Church missionaries, focuses on the safety of Church missionaries, seems a pretty flimsy pretext upon which to accuse Church leadership of "devaluing" non-Mormons, being indifferent to the suffering of non-Mormons, and of being "delusional," or to label Elder Stevenson a "heartless fool."

For what little it's worth, I've known Elder Stevenson for about a decade -- we're not close friends, but we've been associated on some matters since before his call as a General Authority and he was my son's mission president in Nagoya -- and I'm quite certain that he's neither "heartless" nor a "fool."

Moreover, I rather doubt that Elders Choi and Aoyagi are "heartless fools."

My bet is that the area presidency -- besides being criticized anonymously by people who aren't there and probably aren't doing a thing -- are hip deep in organizing humanitarian assistance for those affected by the earthquake and the tsunami, both Mormon and non-Mormon.

Has the Church itself issued any statements on the disaster? Yes, it has. Almost immediately after the first news reports, the Church issued a statement saying, among other things, "Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Japan following the recent devastating earthquake and tsunami. . . . We are also assessing how the Church might help meet the needs of people affected by the earthquake and tsunami."

Notice that the statement doesn't specify members of the Church. It doesn't single them out for concern and possible aid. That doesn't seem quite consistent with the notion here on this board that Church leadership devalues non-Mormons and is indifferent to their pain.

I think it absurd -- and, in its own way, judgmentally hubristic -- to accuse Elders Stevenson, Choi, and Aoyagi of "hubris."

There is nothing morally wrong whatever with rejoicing to hear that one's family and friends have survived a disaster that might have killed others, nor with expressing gratitude for their survival.

The area presidency there has a unique relationship to, and responsibility for, the missionaries in Japan. We often hear the slogan "Think globally, act locally." They were, in this statement, acting locally, worrying very specifically about those in their charge. Those who seriously believe that we should have no specific local attachments, should not feel special affection and responsibility for those closest to us, should give our friends and family no more attention than we give to humankind generally, strike me as very likely to love neither friends and family nor humanity very well. (For often disgusting examples of this phenomenon, see Paul Johnson's Intellectuals.)

44Foxtrot despises Mormonism in particular and theism in general, and has a low opinion of theists. We knew that already. He has articulated it with wearisome dedication and remarkable arrogance, over and over again. This is merely yet another iteration of his general theme.

[Mudcat]

I'm not LDS myself, but I think Jaybear nailed it, even though I am uncertain of Jaybear's religious affiliation. Ron Beron seemed similarly minded and both of them on the first page of the thread.

I believe you have misread the statement. As I read it, the miracle is that all of the Mormon missionaries are safe and accounted for.

Thus he is not saying that God caused the earthquake, but that God intervened to make sure the Mormons were spared from harm.

I think from those statements forward in this thread, all that is left is a digression of events.

[juliann]

It is likely that thousands, or even tens of thousands, of Japanese were killed in this natural disaster. Was the outcome really a miracle orchestrated by the Lord?

Do Mormon leaders think that faithful Japanese who lost friends or family in this disaster agree with this unimaginable hubris, or take comfort in the claim that the Lord orchestrated the outcome of the disaster?

Why should the outcome be proclaimed a miracle (even for Mormons) before the fates of all the Japanese LDS faithful are known?

Why would God care more about missionaries than other faithful Mormons, and more about Mormons than non-Mormons?

Do Mormons think at all before they write this stuff and post it on the internet?

Dear Brothers and Sisters of Japan,

1. We sincerely appreciate the efforts of Pres. Tateoka who has worked continuously since the earthquake to account for his missionaries.

2. We also thank the many members who have helped in this effort.

3. We had a large number of church employees who stayed in the Area office building overnight and most of Saturday to help in this time of emergency and we greatly appreciate their service.

4. We will now make every effort to locate and evaluate the condition of all of our members in Japan.

5. Please inform your priesthood leaders of any information you have on the condition of our members. Brother Darwin Halvorson, our area welfare manager, coordinated much of the effort today and will continue to evaluate and arrange for welfare needs throughout the area.

The

outcome

today

really is a miraculous result orchestrated by the Lord.

We have been uplifted to have observed all that has taken place leading to this result.

We give our thanks to Heavenly Father for his mercy and blessings this day and pray that we now find our members throughout Japan alive and well.

I see it as sympomatic that there will be faithful Mormons who read the above statement from the area presidency and see no problem with it at all.

What is wrong with you? With the horror of the still unfolding destruction expressing your hatred based on a few words is your response? Disgusting!

How in the world could you possibly insert all that ugliness into a statement that is clearly talking about the effort put into finding these missionaries? The message only hopes that other LDS are alive. It is today's outcome that is being called miraculous. The "outcome" is plainly attributed to the work of people.

What date are they referring to as "today", Foxtrot?

[Hamba Tuhan]

But just so I'm clear, would it be logical to assume that if her father were serving a mission for the Church, he would have a greater likelihood of being in good health following the quake? How about if he were just a regular member of the Church? How about if he were a non-LDS Christian, compared to being a member of Japan's predominant Shinto/Buddhist religion?

Do you really believe, Cinepro, that God is some kind of simple machine where one can feed in a ridiculously limited set of variables and expect a predictable response? The God I know is our Heavenly Father. He therefore interacts with His children in a perfectly personalised and individualised way...not as some machine to be manipulated and then dismissed.

[MorningStar]

It is certainly offensive if the principal claims in the letter that God orchestrated the events of the day so that the specific children in the class would all be saved when thousand of others are known to have died, and then makes that letter public on the internet.

How can you think otherwise?

You are interpreting the letter the way you want to. I suppose if some of our missionaries had died, the church would be criticized for sending them out in the first place. Danged if we do, danged if we don't.

[sunstoned]

Here is what appeared on the LDS Website:

The outcome today really is a miraculous result orchestrated by the Lord. We have been uplifted to have observed all that has taken place leading to this result.

I find this to be an appaling demonstration of Mormon arrogance and claimed priviledge.

While it could have been worded in a clearer way, I believe the area presidency

[Avatar4321]

Considering everything that's going on in Japan this past week, it's a miracle so many lives are safe and that people have come together for them so quickly.

Not surprising that the Adversary is trying to stir up trouble with it too. But even in dark times, light can shine through like a beacon to the world. You will see Japan become stronger because of this and there will be many who come to know the Lord. The miracles have just begun.

I am amazed that there are so many who doubt that the Lord can do such good despite these bad circumstances. I suppose lack of faith in the Resurrection would do this.

[Jeff K.]

Our ward has one sister missionary there. For several moments Sunday, our bishop wept and had to compose himself as he stated she and other missionaries were fine, and we gave thanks to the Lord for keeping the young sister safe. The family has two missionaries out, one is serving in Tegulcigalpa in Guatemala while his sister serves in Japan. The father is an entrepreneur, while he may never become rich, he calls his own shots. The mother who is herself Japanese teaches piano to children and has an excellent reputation in the ward for teaching.

Our lives are blessed for knowing them. And the Lord has blessed both the ward and the family by keeping them safe. Some will find issue with that statement. I can only shake my head..... they will never understand the love and closeness that the Lord's church offers.