Japan Earthquake and Tsunami Outcome Orchestrated by The Lord

[Jeff K.]

You presume that miracles are only the unexplained or unnatural. In fact an act of God need not be unexplainable, whether it be preservation or otherwise. Knowing how a car runs does not negate the need of a driver.

Why a tsunami kills a wife while her husband floats out to sea in a roof only to be saved after many days is impossible to fathom. But those who believe in God can and should give thanks while the rest can continue in their unknowledge. They can't say why either. At least we venture and idea or ideal or explanation.

By the way, the most atheistic of us holds the same belief system of animals in the lower kingdoms. A dog doesn't wonder if there is a God, he is just happy to be tossed a bone now an then by whatever means that create the bone. Why never enters a dogs mind, or a cat's, or even an ants. Faith seems to be reserved for a different type of thinker.

[Walden]

You presume that miracles are only the unexplained or unnatural. In fact an act of God need not be unexplainable, whether it be preservation or otherwise. Knowing how a car runs does not negate the need of a driver.

Why a tsunami kills a wife while her husband floats out to sea in a roof only to be saved after many days is impossible to fathom. But those who believe in God can and should give thanks while the rest can continue in their unknowledge. They can't say why either. At least we venture and idea or ideal or explanation.

By the way, the most atheistic of us holds the same belief system of animals in the lower kingdoms. A dog doesn't wonder if there is a God, he is just happy to be tossed a bone now an then by whatever means that create the bone. Why never enters a dogs mind, or a cat's, or even an ants. Faith seems to be reserved for a different type of thinker.

"Why a tsunami kills a wife while her husband floats out to sea in a roof only to be saved after many days is impossible to fathom,"....yes, this is tragic, but there are any number of explanations that one can use to define why it happened.....heck it could even be coincidence. Maybe the husband is physically or mentally stronger, maybe he found a way to mount the floating piece of debris before the waters snatched up his family, etc. There are a number of explanations as to why or how, none of which require divine intervention.

And your insinuation that faith is the domain of of a "different type of thinker," or reading between the lines, and advanced type of thinker, does not take into account the tragic thinking that has compelled humans to wage war and commit atrocities that are not present in the lower animal kingdoms.

[44Foxtrot]

Ya know, anytime you think that it is a good idea to make any type of reference to Glenn Beck in order to make a point, it's probably time to power-down the computer and go mow the lawn, or something.

Ordinarily I would agree with you. (Really.) However, a cursory review of the viewpoints, opinions and beliefs expressed by some individuals on this thread, and on the current edition of the perpetual evolution thread, will show that Glenn Beck's expressed beliefs regarding how the world works do not seem all that out of place here. And like it or not, as far as the general public is concerned, Mormonism is associated with, and to some extent represented by, Glenn Beck.

[Pahoran]

Also, the thread attributed to Rob Bowman should have been attributed to Rob Osborn. Sorry, my mistake.

I see. So when you described his position as "claiming that he carries the DNA of God in his veins" you were really referring to this thread in which he actually made that claim for everyone, not just himself.

But you couldn't help yourself; you had to "improve" his argument to make it more ridiculous, didn't you?

What was it that you actually said again?

When I see threads on a Mormon apologetics board like the one by Rob [Osborn] claiming that he carries the DNA of God in his veins, or see the kind of insensitive wording used in the subject press release, I can't help but think that sometimes Mormons are their own worst enemies.

Which, pompous and judgemental as it is, is also brazenly false. We can never be our own worst enemies as long as there are utterly dishonest, unscrupulous scoundrels around who wilfully misrepresent the teachings of the Church and the arguments of individual Latter-day Saints, and do their best to convince others that extreme individuals are representative of the Latter-day Saints.

Ordinarily I would agree with you. (Really.) However, a cursory review of the viewpoints, opinions and beliefs expressed by some individuals on this thread, and on the current edition of the perpetual evolution thread, will show that Glenn Beck's expressed beliefs regarding how the world works do not seem all that out of place here. And like it or not, as far as the general public is concerned, Mormonism is associated with, and to some extent represented by, Glenn Beck.

Oh, no doubt you'd like people to think that.

Just as you once tried to make people believe that it should be represented by "Christine Jonsen."

Apart from that: you have an outstanding CFR before you. I invite you to either support or retract your earlier claim.

Where are the "headlines" in which you found the Area Presidency letter, Foxtrot?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Luigi]

Ben's apartment in Fukushima (about 30miles from Sendai) was flattened, they were in Koriyama for a zone conference at the time. They made their way back to Fukushima not long after the quake, he grabbed from amongst the rubble his journal and 6 bags of jerky that his mum had recently sent him. because of the failure and danger of the nuclear reactor plant he has gone back to Koriyama and is an emergency shelter there. Ben only has the clothes he was in when the the quake hit. His assignment for his zone in the past few days is to locate food. Food is very short supply, they have water for about 5 days. He has told us via email of the miracle of being able to find food for all the missionaries in his zone and they are sharing with members and investigators from the Koriyama branch. He says Heavenly Father keeps filling his "basket".

I am glad to hear your son is safe pccarthew and I hope he continues to be safe and well.

[ELF1024]

It is likely that thousands, or even tens of thousands, of Japanese were killed in this natural disaster. Was the outcome really a miracle orchestrated by the Lord?

Do Mormon leaders think that faithful Japanese who lost friends or family in this disaster agree with this unimaginable hubris, or take comfort in the claim that the Lord orchestrated the outcome of the disaster?

Why should the outcome be proclaimed a miracle (even for Mormons) before the fates of all the Japanese LDS faithful are known?

Why would God care more about missionaries than other faithful Mormons, and more about Mormons than non-Mormons?

Do Mormons think at all before they write this stuff and post it on the internet?

I see it as sympomatic that there will be faithful Mormons who read the above statement from the area presidency and see no problem with it at all.

Are you saying that the Lord didn't really orchestrate the outcome? Do you think the Lord just let the Tsunami and Earthquake happen without a care for his children, both member and non-member? Are you saying that no-one was miraclously saved?

I think you have illustrated your own bias and your own hubris...

[Jeff K.]

"Why a tsunami kills a wife while her husband floats out to sea in a roof only to be saved after many days is impossible to fathom,"....yes, this is tragic, but there are any number of explanations that one can use to define why it happened.....heck it could even be coincidence. Maybe the husband is physically or mentally stronger, maybe he found a way to mount the floating piece of debris before the waters snatched up his family, etc. There are a number of explanations as to why or how, none of which require divine intervention.

And your insinuation that faith is the domain of of a "different type of thinker," or reading between the lines, and advanced type of thinker, does not take into account the tragic thinking that has compelled humans to wage war and commit atrocities that are not present in the lower animal kingdoms.

Actually if you read the many treatises on mankind's situation including the questions of war, you will find most of them questioning it because of their religious understanding. Marx, the ultimate atheist believed that war was simply the attempt to gain materialistic posessions. While there is some truth to that point of view, I think it overlooks something a large resevoir of other effects while merely offering the shoreline of one aspect.

And if you do not believe the atrocities of war exist in the lower kingdoms, I suggest you watch an ant colony and termite colony and see how they interact, or distinct ant colonies with each other. There are a myriad of other examples.

And yet, you do not realize that sometimes, the physical and mental strength may itself be a gift from God to persevere over ones environment.

[44Foxtrot]

Apart from that: you have an outstanding CFR before you. I invite you to either support or retract your earlier claim.

Where are the "headlines" in which you found the Area Presidency letter, Foxtrot?

Regards,

Pahoran

This now famous letter made the headlines on several websites that I monitor, including one of DCP's apparent favorites (Mormon Discussions).

http://mormon*****.*...hp?f=1&p=429804

(To which this site apparently does not allow functional links - sorry)

[Pahoran]

This now famous letter made the headlines on several websites that I monitor, including one of DCP's apparent favorites (Mormon Discussions).

Okay. So, by "headlines," by which of course we were all supposed to presume you meant "in media sources unconnected with Mormon things," you really meant message board posts by anti-Mormons as spitefully hyper-critical as yourself.

Like one vile hater who derided the writer of the letter as a "heartless fool."

Got it.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Okay. So, by "headlines," by which of course we were all supposed to presume you meant "in media sources unconnected with Mormon things," you really meant message board posts by anti-Mormons as spitefully hyper-critical as yourself.

Like one vile hater who derided the writer of the letter as a "heartless fool."

Got it.

Regards,

Pahoran

Could Foxtrot be any more disingenuous?

Well, there you have it folks there are no media outlets that have a head line about the area presidents letter.

[Mark Beesley]

Ordinarily I would agree with you. (Really.) However, a cursory review of the viewpoints, opinions and beliefs expressed by some individuals on this thread, and on the current edition of the perpetual evolution thread, will show that Glenn Beck's expressed beliefs regarding how the world works do not seem all that out of place here. And like it or not, as far as the general public is concerned, Mormonism is associated with, and to some extent represented by, Glenn Beck.

Two points:

1. Since I don't follow most of the threads very closely, I don't have any idea what is going on in any evolution thread. But just because some posters may adopt an Beckian worldview doesn't really justify his injection into an honest argument. Glenn Beck simply irrelevant to the vast majority of people.

2. Glenn Beck is irrelevant to the vast majority of people, i.e. the "general public." They couldn't care less if he were Mormon or Satanist. He's irrelevant.

Can I say that again? Glenn Beck is irrelevant.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Two points:

1. Since I don't follow most of the threads very closely, I don't have any idea what is going on in any evolution thread. But just because some posters may adopt an Beckian worldview doesn't really justify his injection into an honest argument. Glenn Beck simply irrelevant to the vast majority of people.

2. Glenn Beck is irrelevant to the vast majority of people, i.e. the "general public." They couldn't care less if he were Mormon or Satanist. He's irrelevant.

Can I say that again? Glenn Beck is irrelevant.

I agree, especially since most think he is both Mormon and Satanist anyway.

Beck is not the face of the Church, he is simply the most known Mormon in public right know, which is sad seeing that a Mormon has been Senate Majority leader for 4 years and that is unknown to so many.

Glen Beck is a ok guy, he is very political though, why can't we have Aaron Eckhart as our face, we totally get a lot more investigators with Eckhart and Katherine Heigl as the face of Mormonism!

[Deborah]

Katherine Heigl as the face of Mormonism!

Seriously? Have you seen her recent movies. She is no longer an active member.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Seriously? Have you seen her recent movies. She is no longer an active member.

Hey last year I wasn't an active member either but here I am this week getting ready to be ordained an Elder, every member is a missionary, and every inactive is a potential active member if we reach out to them.

She is an awesome face for the Church, she is well known, she is well liked, and if she becomes active again she could have a powerful testimony to share with the world.

If Hucakbee got's Chuck Norris, Mormons need someone better than Glen Beck!

[cinepro]

Hey last year I wasn't an active member either but here I am this week getting ready to be ordained an Elder, every member is a missionary, and every inactive is a potential active member if we reach out to them.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you get from there to here?

[LDS Guy 1986]

If you don't mind me asking, how did you get from there to here?

Not going into to much detail because it is very personal but the missionaries took interest in seeing me return to activity and stopped by several times.

[44Foxtrot]

Two points:

1. Since I don't follow most of the threads very closely, I don't have any idea what is going on in any evolution thread. But just because some posters may adopt an Beckian worldview doesn't really justify his injection into an honest argument. Glenn Beck simply irrelevant to the vast majority of people.

2. Glenn Beck is irrelevant to the vast majority of people, i.e. the "general public." They couldn't care less if he were Mormon or Satanist. He's irrelevant.

Can I say that again? Glenn Beck is irrelevant.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that Glen Beck is irrelevant. If you believe that actively and intentionally serving as one of the most effective and high visibility lightening rods out there for public displeasure with the far right is irrelevant, then I suppose you could be correct.

Glenn Beck is a buffoon, pure and simple. But he is a self-styled, Skousen channeling, make it up as you go along Mormon buffoon, and pretty much everyone knows it. Even a liberal Democrat such as myself, who would not watch Fox News on a bet, can't get away from Glen Beck. Every time he makes a ridiculous public statement, or performs one of his "offend everyone we can" tricks, he ends up as grist for the less conservative media mill, and we all get to watch his craziness on John Stewart, Bill Maher, Steven Colbert, the Huffington Post or You Tube.

In the larger scheme of things, he may well be irrelevant. For now however, he is one of the biggest PR liabilities the LDS Church has among all but the most ultra -conservative. You can trust me on that.

____________________

Edited to add: Senator Harry Reid was mentioned in one of the earlier posts as one who should be seen more of as a representative of the Mormon Church in public life. As for the Senate Majority Leader, I have met the man and we have worked with his staff in Las Vegas on a project there over the last 10 months or so. He is a low key, honest, intelligent, effective and personable legislator, and I think he does a great job. To the extent that people know him to be a Mormon, I think he is is an ideal representative for the LDS Church in politics.

[Minos]

Automatic generated message

This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: This has run its course.

Thank you,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff