Japan Earthquake and Tsunami Outcome Orchestrated by The Lord

[thesometimesaint]

CA Steve:

We imperfect mortals live on a imperfect world where bad things happen. The trial is not the events that happen in our lives, but is to see if we will whatsoever the Lord our God has commanded us to do.

[ed2276]

fonts are messed up...lol

So, is the author!

It's appalling that you can write such vile, hateful tripe and then laugh stupidly about your font problem. Seek mental help.

[USU78]

an event beyond his control in which he has acted to the fullest extent of his capabilities to help.

Rather, let's say that it's beyond the control He chooses to exercise . . . and that He has acted to the fullest extent consistent with our freedom out of His love and regard for us.

[USU78]

Actually, I think you have mistaken gratitude for something else.

Exactly. After the tremendous and unprecedented victory at Agincourt, Henry V says (per WS):

* Henry V. O God, thy arm was here;

And not to us, but to thy arm alone,

Ascribe we all! When, without stratagem,

But in plain shock and even play of battle,

Was ever known so great and little loss

On one part and on the other? Take it, God,

For it is none but thine!

* Duke of Exeter. 'Tis wonderful!

* Henry V. Come, go we in procession to the village.

And be it death proclaimed through our host

To boast of this or take the praise from God

Which is his only.

* Fluellen. Is it not lawful, an please your majesty, to tell

how many is killed?

* Henry V. Yes, captain; but with this acknowledgement,

That God fought for us.

* Fluellen. Yes, my conscience, he did us great good.

* Henry V. Do we all holy rites;

Let there be sung 'Non nobis' and 'Te Deum;'

The dead with charity enclosed in clay:

And then to Calais; and to England then: 2835

Where ne'er from France arrived more happy men.

In this, especially this, wretched age, such expressions of gratitude for G-d's mercy, wholly without Schadenfreude, are almost wholly absent. Perhaps our nictitating friends just can't recognize them for what they are.

[CA Steve]

Rather, let's say that it's beyond the control He chooses to exercise . . . and that He has acted to the fullest extent consistent with our freedom out of His love and regard for us.

While I realize I will be in the minority here, I personally find it easier to understand it as an event beyond His control than believe there is some sort of unknowable divine intent in a tragedy such as this.

[44Foxtrot]

Three questions:

1-Do you believe that the LDS church thinks no LDS members have been killed or have had loved ones killed in Japan?

I do not, and the statement on the LDS website does not claim this to be the case.

2-IF God exists and is active in the lives of His children, wouldn't it illogical to believe that God would NOT intervene to protect the lives of certain individuals who still had work to do on the earth in His service?

Here is where we run into the insensitive claims by Mormons. It may be logical to you, but think about what is being said.

Let me give you an example. Let's say that there was a diplomatic mission from Saudi Arabia somewhere along the North Japanese coastline, that none of their staff were killed, and that they posted a statement on the internet stating that Allah had orchestrated the events that lead to the saving of their staff. Since you do not believe in Allah, you would probably account these events to natural causes, and feel that the Saudi's were making unwarranted assumptions. I hate to say this, but even the Saudi's know better than to make claims on public websites of the type made by the Mormons in this case.

3-Did the church say or imply that God's hand was not invovled in saving any of the non-LDS (and non-Christian) people who lived? Did the church ANYWHERE suggest that the only miracles which happened invovled only LDS members?

This question is irrelevant. Nowhere in the entire statement was any concern expressed for other than Mormons.

Your indignation is acknowledged, but doesn't seem reasonable.

Considering that you are a faithful Mormon, you have just made my point.

[CA Steve]

CA Steve:

We imperfect mortals live on a imperfect world where bad things happen. The trial is not the events that happen in our lives, but is to see if we will whatsoever the Lord our God has commanded us to do.

I am not sure how this applies to the event in question. What is it that God has commanded the Japanese people to do in an 8.9 earthquake? I think I am missing your point.

[44Foxtrot]

While I realize I will be in the minority here, I personally find it easier to understand it as an event beyond His control than believe there is some sort of unknowable divine intent in a tragedy such as this.

Your God is not omnipotent and omniscient?

[Deborah]

Talk about hubris, what about reading comprehension.

The circumstances were that in the area of Sendai, which was the worst hit, the church had been unable to contact anyone to find out if the missionaries were safe. By some means they were finally able to reach and contact the missionaries to account for them. Hence, the announcement

[CA Steve]

Your God is not omnipotent and omniscient?

I believe God is limited by what is possible.

[USU78]

I believe God is limited by what is possible.

Not me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrwoAsimsVI

USU "Non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam " 78

[thesometimesaint]

CA Steve:

Duck. Then take care of your neighbor who couldn't.

[frankenstein]

(Emphasis is mine.)

It is likely that thousands, or even tens of thousands, of Japanese were killed in this natural disaster. Was the outcome really a miracle orchestrated by the Lord?

you could always pray and ask God yourself.

[Monster]

Stuff just happens. It is not a miracle or a punishment from God.

[TAO]

I am not sure if we agree or disagree here but I prefer to believe in a God that has done everything he can to minimize the suffering from an event such as this. I do not view this as some sort of indiscriminate trial given to Japanese people by God, rather as an event beyond his control in which he has acted to the fullest extent of his capabilities to help.

While I understand what you mean, yah, I disagree kinda. I believe God sometimes does send us really hard trials... because he loves us. I wouldn't see a reason for trials if they didn't improve us... and so it comes to mind that perhaps, he sends them to us to make us better people.

Here... let me get a verse to show you what I mean....

Mosiah 3:19

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Bold and Underline by me

For me... this means... taking our trials well... even when they are beyond difficult... even when they are nigh impossible... we must take them... because we know that the Lord will not give us a trial, nor a commandment, that will be too great for us to overcome. We must be willing to submit too all things the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon us, and become submissive, meek, and humble, even as a child is to his Father.

I know it's a really hard thing... knowing that the Lord causes disasters to happen... but if they are for our own benefit... who are we to complain, if ya' know what I mean. He's not being cruel... he's preparing us for the life we will have next. Sometimes, that means we will die. But as he gave us life, so is it his to take away... and I am sure many will be happier up there than they were down here... so the Lord takes them back to their home, once again =).

Best Wishes in peace,

TAO

[bluebell]

I do not, and the statement on the LDS website does not claim this to be the case.

So you have said that the statement by the mormon church shows the arrogance of the mormons to claim special priviledge while admitting that the mormons more than likely also believe that members of the church died right alongside nonmembers.

Here is where we run into the insensitive claims by Mormons. It may be logical to you, but think about what is being said.

Let me give you an example. Let's say that there was a diplomatic mission from Saudi Arabia somewhere along the North Japanese coastline, that none of their staff were killed, and that they posted a statement on the internet stating that Allah had orchestrated the events that lead to the saving of their staff. Since you do believe in Allah, you would probably account these events to natural causes, and feel that the Saudi's were making unwarranted assumptions. I hate to say this, but even the Saudi's know better than to make claims on public websites of the type made by the Mormons in this case.

There would be nothing insensitive about a group of Muslims proclaiming such a thing.

It is a confused person, who believes in God, but believes that He will either save everyone, or save none of them. Your sensitivity in regards to religion is causing you to see offense where none exists.

This question is irrelevant. Nowhere in the entire statement was any concern expressed for other than Mormons.

You must be aware of all the resources that the church is using right now to help everyone that has been impacted by this disaster. You would not have look at LDS.org for more than 20 seconds to find statements of concern for all those invovled.

That you have chosen to ignore those statements and acts of concern to prove a point is pretty low.

Considering that you are a faithful Mormon, you have just made my point.

And sadly, you have made mine.

[Jigglysaint]

Stuff just happens. It is not a miracle or a punishment from God.

I see what the church stated in the letter as nothing more than fancy language to say "okay we got the missionaries accounted for". I don't see it as an exclusive statement that was implying that other people who did die were not worthy of being saved, or what have you.

Now if the church went out of it's way to mention how their missionaries were saved and the Baptist missionaries all drowned, then I'd get upset and shake my head.

[mtomm]

If I was the parent of a missionary in Japan and I had been unable to find out their condition and knowing the devastation and how difficult communications were I'd probably consider it a miracle that there were able to locate them so quickly. Isn't that what this letter is conveying? As the mother of a missionary I'm always hoping that the Lord is taking special care of my son because he is making a sacrifice for the Lord. I also think He feels the same way about all those who labor for others. Mormons or not.

In no way is this letter saying, "Woot, the missionaries are safe! Too bad you other suckers aren't Mormons or you'd be okay, too!"

At church today I didn't hear, "And bless the Mormon Japanese people."

[Bikeemikey]

The subject of the OP is not the secular nature of the Japanese Self Defense Force; it is the rank insensitivity and hubris on display in the Mormon claim that God orchestrated the outcome of the events related to the 8.9 earthquake for the benefit of Mormon missionaries.

Get a grip man. If you take stuff out of context you can make it read anyway you want.

In the specific context of individuals feeling guided by the "lords hand" as the assisted in post-disaster relief efforts and the locating of LDS missionaries the comment makes perfect sense.

A bunch of church people were going around trying to find other church folk and had all sorts of burning church experiences. Conclusion, in the letter penned to LDS family of missionaries serving in Japan they added a line stating they felt the lords hand in their post-disaster efforts.

However, this letter has huge scope to be taken as potentially insulting/insensitive if I were, for example, to start to broadcast it across the internet in an out of context manner, kind of like what you are doing now actually.

It would also be extremely insulting for LDS members to talk about how they were al saved, or all missionaries were protected, or injuries to members only occurred to those not wearing temple garments, etc etc.

It is actually your willful interest to take something out of context to prove malevolence that was never intended that begins to foster the very insult you claim the letter demonstrated in the first place.

I used to like reading your posts but lately it has become clear that you are quite a tool!!!

[MorningStar]

I don't understand why you take offense to this. Anyone whose relatives or friends have been found safe are grateful for the outcome. It doesn't mean we're not terribly sad for everyone who suffered a loss, but people should be able to acknowledge how the Lord has helped them through such a horrible situation. I'm grateful that so many worried parents know their missionaries are OK. A friend of mine talked about her gratitude that all of her relatives are accounted for. Should I tell her to stop posting such "hubris"?

[Pahoran]

I don't understand why you take offense to this. Anyone whose relatives or friends have been found safe are grateful for the outcome. It doesn't mean we're not terribly sad for everyone who suffered a loss, but people should be able to acknowledge how the Lord has helped them through such a horrible situation. I'm grateful that so many worried parents know their missionaries are OK. A friend of mine talked about her gratitude that all of her relatives are accounted for. Should I tell her to stop posting such "hubris"?

That really depends. Is she a Mormon?

If she is, then whatever she does, in Foxtrot-land, is blameworthy, and direct evidence of the depravity of LDS life and teaching. If she isn't, then it doesn't count.

I wonder how much time Foxtrot had to spend searching the internet in order to find the current excuse for his artificial indignation?

Regards,

Pahoran

[44Foxtrot]

Get a grip man. If you take stuff out of context you can make it read anyway you want.

In the specific context of individuals feeling guided by the "lords hand" as the assisted in post-disaster relief efforts and the locating of LDS missionaries the comment makes perfect sense.

A bunch of church people were going around trying to find other church folk and had all sorts of burning church experiences. Conclusion, in the letter penned to LDS family of missionaries serving in Japan they added a line stating they felt the lords hand in their post-disaster efforts.

However, this letter has huge scope to be taken as potentially insulting/insensitive if I were, for example, to start to broadcast it across the internet in an out of context manner, kind of like what you are doing now actually.

It would also be extremely insulting for LDS members to talk about how they were al saved, or all missionaries were protected, or injuries to members only occurred to those not wearing temple garments, etc etc.

It is actually your willful interest to take something out of context to prove malevolence that was never intended that begins to foster the very insult you claim the letter demonstrated in the first place.

I used to like reading your posts but lately it has become clear that you are quite a tool!!!

Are you saying that you see nothing inappropriate with the wording of the last paragraph of the statement of the area presidency as contained in the OP?

In what possible context is it appropriate to claim on a publicly accessible website that God orchestrated a miracle especially for your tribe in the face of the death and destruction to others?

[TAO]

Are you saying that you see nothing inappropriate with the wording of the last paragraph of the statement of the area presidency as contained in the OP?

In what possible context is it appropriate to claim on a publicly accessible website that God orchestrated a miracle especially for your tribe in the face of the death and destruction to others?

Foxtrot... every person alive is a miracle. This just mentions the ones that happen to be missionaries.

[Deborah]

Are you saying that you see nothing inappropriate with the wording of the last paragraph of the statement of the area presidency as contained in the OP?

Once again keep it in context. The entire first paragraph was talking about the effort to locate the missionaries. The conclusion was that because of the difficulty in doing so under the circumstances they felt there was a divine hand. How much clearer can it be?

[CQUIRK]

Are you saying that you see nothing inappropriate with the wording of the last paragraph of the statement of the area presidency as contained in the OP?

NOPE. Jaybear had hit the mark in his previous post.

In what possible context is it appropriate to claim on a publicly accessible website that God orchestrated a miracle especially for your tribe in the face of the death and destruction to others?

Because the destruction could've been much, MUCH worse and MORE people could've been killed, especially any of the missionaries. And also, in Japan's history, this recent earthquake killed far less people then the ones in the past, especially the Great Kanto earthquake of 1923, which killed nearly 150,000 people alone.

Your own logic against the Church's statement is petty and simpleton. Shame on you!