Japan Earthquake and Tsunami Outcome Orchestrated by The Lord

[SilverKnight]

The thing is, more than just Mormon's and missionaries have been saved. You might have an argument if all of Japan sank and only LDS were magically saved. The fact is, a good portion of Japan, missionaries and members included, are suffering right now. We are happy that those who survived, survived, but are not naive enough to believe that anyone is in the clear, LDS and non-LDS alike.

Every time there is a natural disaster or global catastrophe this argument gets trotted out.

As soon as it happens the secular crowd develops a massive chip on their shoulder and a very itchy trigger finger waiting for some religious buffoon to theorize on how God was involved.

Perhaps disappointingly to the secularists, the vast majority of religious organizations are more interested in relief efforts than discussing why God did it, and who got spared.

However invariably some backwater fundamentalist cretin cracks open his Bible and gets all End of Days about it, providing the secularists the red meat they were salivating for.

[Luigi]

The thing is, more than just Mormon's and missionaries have been saved. You might have an argument if all of Japan sank and only LDS were magically saved. The fact is, a good portion of Japan, missionaries and members included, are suffering right now. We are happy that those who survived, survived, but are not naive enough to believe that anyone is in the clear, LDS and non-LDS alike.

But many, many died. If God exists He could have saved all of them but for whatever reason chose not to. The offense is in expressing gratitude that He guided the disaster to avoid the LDS missionaries but then, though it would have been no additional inconvenience to Him, allowed it to swallow up thousands of other men, women and children.

Anyway, I hate having debates about people who are suffering right now; kind of makes me feel as though I'm exploiting someone else's tragedy for my own selfish need to argue.

H.

The reality is that given our location of thousands of miles away from these people our debates have no impact positive or negative on the situation there. All we can and should do is give to those organizations that can positively impact their situation.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

You clearly read my post about my TBM/NOM family and so it would seem that you are accusing me of hating my own wife and children. Do you really think that this is the case?

I think you despise their religion.

Turns out that my wife and I have a fully intact, well educated and close knit family of which we are very proud.

(BTW: TBM means "true believing Mormon" and like NOM, is not derogatory in any way.)

"TBM" is a term of derision. "NOM," by contrast, is a euphemism.

Also, the thread attributed to Rob Bowman should have been attributed to Rob Osborn. Sorry, my mistake.

Actually that's the least of your mistakes.

The first mistake was to start this thread, in which you hypervigilantly and censoriously tried to find fault with Church leaders for the awful crime of expressing gratitude to God for the safety of the missionaries.

The second mistake was to try to dissemble your visceral and pervasive hostility towards the Church of Jesus Christ, when everyone aware of your posting history knows how you really feel.

BTW, I notice you carefully avoided answering my question. What could the Area Presidency have said that you wouldn't find fault with?

"We can now confirm that all our missionaries are safe. In the circumstances, we think that's remarkable, but despite the fact that we believe in a God who answers prayers, we won't say anything about that in case some hypervigilant critic is looking for a pretext to work himself into a tizzy."

Will that do?

Let us say that, based on the objective evidence and personal experience (theirs and mine), I do not hold their Church in the highest regard.

Really?

And do you still imagine you can count the "Christine Jonsen" case -- the one you were not aware of at the time it happened -- as part of your "personal experience?"

Let us say that, based on the objective evidence and personal experience of your posting history, I do not hold you in the highest regard. Indeed, I am forced to conclude that you don't really care whether your accusations are true or valid or otherwise; you only care that you make them.

And you are doing the same thing with this matter as you did with the "Christine Jonsen" case: cynically exploiting a tragedy for cheap polemical point-scoring.

Only in this case, the tragedy is ongoing.

There really is nothing beneath you, is there, DrW/Foxtrot?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There really is nothing beneath you, is there, DrW/Foxtrot?

Regards,

Pahoran

I notice (I hate that word) that Foxtrot has never once denied that he is DrW.

[Deborah]

I think the offense comes not in the rejoicing at the safety of the missionaries but in the praise to an omnipotent being who LDS members beileve is easily capable of sparing everyone but who chose to save a few who happened to be LDS missionaries.

Good grief! Another person who lacks reading comprehension. It didn't say anything about sparing only the missionaries. It was thanking God that they were able to locate all the missionaries under those conditions and were thankful they were safe, period. This demonstrates how those who hate the church will jump on any crumb to put it down, even if it means they have to twist the meaning of what was said.

[mfbukowski]

What it says to me is that the Lord helped in the orchestration of the survival of the missionaries. I suggest that you are using hyperbole and prejudice in your condemnation of the letter. I saw nothing to suggest that the Japanese people "deserved" what they got. I served in the area affected by the earthquake/tsunami and I know that I would have been concerned for the lives of my fellow missionaries as well as the parents of those serving.

I wish I could give this about 27 reputation points. Nah, make it an even 30.

What a ridiculous conclusion Foxtrot drew!

The statement he quoted was a TRANSLATION anyway!

[Luigi]

Good grief! Another person who lacks reading comprehension. It didn't say anything about sparing only the missionaries. It was thanking God that they were able to locate all the missionaries under those conditions and were thankful they were safe, period. This demonstrates how those who hate the church will jump on any crumb to put it down, even if it means they have to twist the meaning of what was said.

I am grateful the missionaries are safe and I am grateful the Church has notified Church members they are safe. I'm sure it is a huge consolation to their families. However I would probably withhold public expressions of gratitude for someone who saved some of the people I cared about while leaving others to die that he could have easily saved.

[Pahoran]

I am grateful the missionaries are safe and I am grateful the Church has notified Church members they are safe. I'm sure it is a huge consolation to their families. However I would probably withhold public expressions of gratitude for someone who saved some of the people I cared about while leaving others to die that he could have easily saved.

So the only time you'd ever express gratitude to God is if the outcome is uniformly positive for everyone involved; is that it?

I, for one, am grateful for everyone that has been saved, including the four-month-old baby who was rescued from the wreckage of her home just a few hours ago.

I have no idea what, if any, religious affiliation her family has, but I am thankful to the Lord that her life was spared.

I hope you don't find that too "offensive."

Regards,

Pahoran

[Luigi]

So the only time you'd ever express gratitude to God is if the outcome is uniformly positive for everyone involved; is that it?

I, for one, am grateful for everyone that has been saved, including the four-month-old baby who was rescued from the wreckage of her home just a few hours ago.

I have no idea what, if any, religious affiliation her family has, but I am thankful to the Lord that her life was spared.

I hope you don't find that too "offensive."

Regards,

Pahoran

It's not the gratitude for those who are safe that anyone would find offensive. I'm just saying I would feel rather conflicted if I honestly thought some were saved by an omnipotent being who intervened for those individuals but left thousands others to die for no apparent reason that he could have easily saved. I would feel the same if a captain of a ship came from a shipwreck, on which many perished, with a half-empty lifeboat . I would be grateful for the lives saved but I wouldn't think much of the captain who left people behind to die. I also certainly wouldn't give a press release expressing my gratitude to that captain unless I also had received a satisfactory explanation for the captain's actions and I would certainly share with that explanation in the press release to help others understand what otherwise appears to be callous apathy on the captain's part. I would especially make sure to include this explanation of the captain's actions if I was going to the effort to point out how the captain went to the special effort to save people who were close to me or somehow associated with me.

[Thunderfire]

(Emphasis is mine.)

It is likely that thousands, or even tens of thousands, of Japanese were killed in this natural disaster. Was the outcome really a miracle orchestrated by the Lord?

What I'm about to share I know will be offensive to some and others will think it is completely crazy. But it is true none the less. An experience with the Lord and my commentary:

A few days prior to Hurricane Katrina hitting New Orleans I was in prayer when I heard the audible voice of the Lord "announce" His intentions. All I heard were the words, "I will pour out mercy before judgment!" Needless to say, this stopped me cold in my tracks and I began praying for insight into what He meant. After more prayer I began to see in a new way what the Lord was saying (and doing).

I saw how the city would be devastated and that many would loose there lives. But the mercy being poured out was not for the benefit of those who died, but on those who were "left behind." The world has waxed cold and the love of man is nearly extinguished. But look what happened after that hurricane hit! All eyes were on New Orleans. People began sending money and supplies, families took in total strangers and the love for man began to be rekindled again (if even for a season).

Frankly, most all of those who survived this current disaster will suffer greatly. I do believe the hand of God is in this, but for a much different reason. We need to see the mercy of God being extended FOR OUR BENEFIT, that we may begin to look after all the people regardless of denominational loyalty. It is good to be concerned for the LDS brothers and sisters, better still to be concerned for all people simply because they are children of God.

So in my opinion, the real miracle is coming. Watch what the world does to reach out to the survivors. Watch how world wide support pours in as we care for total strangers. The miracle will be our blessing and God's mercy to us, giving us a chance for mercy before judgment...

[44Foxtrot]

However invariably some backwater fundamentalist cretin cracks open his Bible and gets all End of Days about it, providing the secularists the red meat they were salivating for.

Happens every time.

[cinepro]

Do you really believe, Cinepro, that God is some kind of simple machine where one can feed in a ridiculously limited set of variables and expect a predictable response? The God I know is our Heavenly Father. He therefore interacts with His children in a perfectly personalised and individualised way...not as some machine to be manipulated and then dismissed.

No, I believe God is more like a very complex machine where one can follow a (sometimes) ridiculously complicated set of variables and expect a predictable response.

At least, that's what D&C 82:10 tells me.

[Deborah]

However I would probably withhold public expressions of gratitude for someone who saved some of the people I cared about while leaving others to die that he could have easily saved.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT IT SAID. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

It wasn't about thanking God for saving some. It was about being thankful for finally being able to reach the missionaries they couldn't reach and gratitude to know they were safe. How is that even implying that they were thankful their own were saved at the expense of others which is what the critics are trying to make this out to be. This is getting very irritating that so many people don't know how to read in context.

[Deborah]

I'm just saying I would feel rather conflicted if I honestly thought some were saved by an omnipotent being who intervened for those individuals but left thousands others to die for no apparent reason that he could have easily saved.

The only people saying that are you people who jump at any chance to attack the church. The church was announcing its gratitude for divine help in locating the missionaries and in being grateful they were all found safe. In other words some of them could not have made it but they were thankful they were safe.

While everyone is criticizing the church these missionaries are probably out in their shirt sleeves helping the communities and working to do what they can for the injured and homeless. Shame on all of you for suggesting they shouldn't be alive by your constant pounding on an expression of gratitude that they are safe.

[Hamba Tuhan]

No, I believe God is more like a very complex machine where one can follow a (sometimes) ridiculously complicated set of variables and expect a predictable response.

'And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men

[Pahoran]

However invariably some backwater fundamentalist cretin cracks open his Bible and gets all End of Days about it, providing the secularists the red meat they were salivating for.

Happens every time.

Not this time.

This time the secularist buffon with the itchy trigger finger and the chip on his shoulder shot his mouth off.

So tell us, Foxy; just what was it that made you go looking for this?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Luigi]

How is that even implying that they were thankful their own were saved at the expense of others which is what the critics are trying to make this out to be.

The point is not that God saved some at the expense of others but that he saved some when he could have saved everyone at no expense. In other words, God apparently goes to the effort to save some for which you thank him but He doesn't go to the effort to save many others which you don't explain. The expression of gratitude for the former completely dismisses the apparent indifference shown by God to the the others. The offense here is not in what the letter contains as much as what it does not contain.

[Deborah]

The offense here is not in what the letter contains as much as what it does not contain.

Good grief! In other words what you read into it. How pathetic.

[Mark Beesley]

What I'm about to share I know will be offensive to some and others will think it is completely crazy. But it is true none the less. An experience with the Lord and my commentary:

A few days prior to Hurricane Katrina hitting New Orleans I was in prayer when I heard the audible voice of the Lord "announce" His intentions. All I heard were the words, "I will pour out mercy before judgment!" Needless to say, this stopped me cold in my tracks and I began praying for insight into what He meant. After more prayer I began to see in a new way what the Lord was saying (and doing).

I saw how the city would be devastated and that many would loose there lives. But the mercy being poured out was not for the benefit of those who died, but on those who were "left behind." The world has waxed cold and the love of man is nearly extinguished. But look what happened after that hurricane hit! All eyes were on New Orleans. People began sending money and supplies, families took in total strangers and the love for man began to be rekindled again (if even for a season).

Frankly, most all of those who survived this current disaster will suffer greatly. I do believe the hand of God is in this, but for a much different reason. We need to see the mercy of God being extended FOR OUR BENEFIT, that we may begin to look after all the people regardless of denominational loyalty. It is good to be concerned for the LDS brothers and sisters, better still to be concerned for all people simply because they are children of God.

So in my opinion, the real miracle is coming. Watch what the world does to reach out to the survivors. Watch how world wide support pours in as we care for total strangers. The miracle will be our blessing and God's mercy to us, giving us a chance for mercy before judgment...

This has been my thought over the past couple of days. Yes, the world has some siginificant problems -- wars, poverty, exploitation pollution, greed, etc. But it seems like we really are like a kind of dysfunctional family. We squabble, bicker and fight. But when tragedy strikes, we come together. I've gotta thnk that counts for something when the Lord considers what to do about us.

[Luigi]

Good grief! In other words what you read into it. How pathetic.

Personally Deborah I wasn't offended by the letter but I could see the point foxtrot was making.

I recognize that the letter was intended for Church members. Church members all have the mutual understanding that outsiders don't that would make the implied offense non-existent. The implied offense is that God plays favorites by picking some to be saved while letting others perish but Church theology instead teaches that death and suffering are all part of God's plan. According to this belief those who die and suffer are generally not being punished and not loved less by God. Consequently within the context of Mormon theology the missionaries were not saved because God was playing favorites or because He loved them more but because for now God's plan included their survival and safety which the Church leaders were expressing gratitude for.

[pcarthew]

The only people saying that are you people who jump at any chance to attack the church. The church was announcing its gratitude for divine help in locating the missionaries and in being grateful they were all found safe. In other words some of them could not have made it but they were thankful they were safe.

While everyone is criticizing the church these missionaries are probably out in their shirt sleeves helping the communities and working to do what they can for the injured and homeless. Shame on all of you for suggesting they shouldn't be alive by your constant pounding on an expression of gratitude that they are safe.

I am very glad for divine intervention. I am glad they are safe. My son is in the Sendai mission, and I can tell you the (sleepless) 27 hours that passed before we could find out whether or not he was OK along with his companion and all the other missionaries was very stressful. I cannot tell you the gratitude I feel. My son Ben emailed my wife and I yesterday. He sounded very shaken up, but up beat at the same time. He related some of the miracles that he saw and is experiencing which are incredible. Heavenly Father does look after his missionaries no doubt. If people here new how some of the missionaries escaped serious injury and death, some would marvel and be touched and others would mock and scorn.

Ben's apartment in Fukushima (about 30miles from Sendai) was flattened, they were in Koriyama for a zone conference at the time. They made their way back to Fukushima not long after the quake, he grabbed from amongst the rubble his journal and 6 bags of jerky that his mum had recently sent him. because of the failure and danger of the nuclear reactor plant he has gone back to Koriyama and is an emergency shelter there. Ben only has the clothes he was in when the the quake hit. His assignment for his zone in the past few days is to locate food. Food is very short supply, they have water for about 5 days. He has told us via email of the miracle of being able to find food for all the missionaries in his zone and they are sharing with members and investigators from the Koriyama branch. He says Heavenly Father keeps filling his "basket". They are helping around the city where they can, they also have been gathering people as they move around Koriyama, praying with them and sharing a message of hope through Jesus Christ. He tells us those the meet with tell of the gentle feelings they feel of peace. Ben was telling us he can see the changes in peoples faces as they go about doing this.

I always enjoy reading your posts...very balanced...your testimony shines through

BTW the OP is rubbish. People will find bad in anything if they look hard enough. God loves his missionaries, that does not mean that diminishes His love for any of his other children. Only the insecure would feel they need to criticise as the Church has been criticised in the OP.

[mfbukowski]

Not this time.

This time the secularist buffon with the itchy trigger finger and the chip on his shoulder shot his mouth off.

So tell us, Foxy; just what was it that made you go looking for this?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Daniel Peterson]

Phil:

I'm glad to hear that your son is safe. I shared your post with my wife and with my son (who served in Nagoya). They enjoyed it very much.

-dcp

[44Foxtrot]

I recognize and appreciate the differences of opinion expressed regarding the understanding of some of the critics here as to the intent and meaning the Japan Area Presidency statement.

One poster quite correctly pointed out that it was (or may have been) a translation. I can certainly see where, under the circumstances, the wording may not have been as carefully reviewed as in normal times. I still saw it as a potential PR problem and apparently so did the folks who released it.

However, there can be little doubt about the intent of the words from this prominent Mormon on the issue:

On his first day back from vacation, Glenn Beck addressed the earthquake in Japan, and said he thinks that it could be a "message [is] being sent" by God.

Speaking on his radio show Monday, Beck said, "I'm not saying God is, you know, causing earthquakes," before quickly adding, "I'm not not saying that either."

He then said that whatever one called God, "there's a message being sent. And that is, 'Hey, you know that stuff we're doing? Not really working out real well. Maybe we should stop doing some of it.' I'm just saying."

I understand that Glenn Beck does not speak for the Mormon Church. However, he is a very public face of Mormonism, and is an individual who (self) promotes the stereotype of the off-the-wall religionist that so many here try to avoid.

[Deborah]

My son is in the Sendai mission, and I can tell you the (sleepless) 27 hours that passed before we could find out whether or not he was OK along with his companion and all the other missionaries was very stressful. I cannot tell you the gratitude I feel.

So glad your son is safe. I can't imagine how frightening it must be for loved ones when family members are in such a situation.