I Have Seen Your Sacrifices in Obedience

[telnetd]

Come Follow Me is discussing Doctrine and Covenants 129-132 this week.

Many people who read the Old Testament wonder about Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and others 
marrying multiple wives.

Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard of marriage (see the section 
heading to Official Declaration 1; Jacob 2:27, 30). However, there have been times when 
God has commanded His children to practice plural marriage.

They did not use the phrase "many wives and concubines"; instead they used "multiple wives".

Why not portray it like it's recorded in D&C?  Was it meant to de-emphasize one of its main
purposes - to have much seed?

[rpn]

I would say that we don't commonly use "concubines" and frankly we don't know or care about how it was done in scriptural times, so why not discuss it the way we do now.  

And do we have any modern scripture saying why Joseph and the some of the saints had polygamous wives?   

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Why not portray it like it's recorded in D&C?

So that people who live to obsessively find fault with the Restored Church will never run out of fun things about which to nit-pic.

It's a public service.

Edited November 13, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[The Nehor]

Not sure that pointing out that sex slaves existed is nit picking. Some might consider it important.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

Come Follow Me is discussing Doctrine and Covenants 129-132 this week.

Many people who read the Old Testament wonder about Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and others 
marrying multiple wives.

Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard of marriage (see the section 
heading to Official Declaration 1; Jacob 2:27, 30). However, there have been times when 
God has commanded His children to practice plural marriage.

They did not use the phrase "many wives and concubines"; instead they used "multiple wives".

Why not portray it like it's recorded in D&C?  Was it meant to de-emphasize one of its main
purposes - to have much seed?

Concubines were still considered to be wives I think, but of a lower status than the other wives (because they usually came from slavery, though becoming a concubine increased their status and was generally a step up).  It could be that they did not use the exact phrase because they felt it was redundant in meaning and irrelevant doctrinally.  But who knows for sure.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not sure that pointing out that sex slaves existed is nit picking. Some might consider it important.

Sex slaves definitely existed, but concubines were not sex slaves.  They could be previous slaves or servants (not all servants were slaves of course) but once made a concubine were considered wives of a lower status, with some protections and rights associated with that that slaves did not have.

For most women in the OT era, it was better to be a concubine than a servant.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Come Follow Me is discussing Doctrine and Covenants 129-132 this week.

Many people who read the Old Testament wonder about Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and others 
marrying multiple wives.

Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard of marriage (see the section 
heading to Official Declaration 1; Jacob 2:27, 30). However, there have been times when 
God has commanded His children to practice plural marriage.

They did not use the phrase "many wives and concubines"; instead they used "multiple wives".

Why not portray it like it's recorded in D&C?  Was it meant to de-emphasize one of its main
purposes - to have much seed?

Probably to focus on the keys of sealing and the practice of plural marriage which was restored, and not on the practice of concubinage, which was not part of the social structure in which the gospel was restored and the sealing keys used.

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Come Follow Me is discussing Doctrine and Covenants 129-132 this week.

Many people who read the Old Testament wonder about Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and others 
marrying multiple wives.

Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard of marriage (see the section 
heading to Official Declaration 1; Jacob 2:27, 30). However, there have been times when 
God has commanded His children to practice plural marriage.

They did not use the phrase "many wives and concubines"; instead they used "multiple wives".

Why not portray it like it's recorded in D&C?  Was it meant to de-emphasize one of its main
purposes - to have much seed?

Interesting observation.

It seems like a matter of clarity and sensitivity. The term "concubine" carries a specific, often historically loaded and uncomfortable connotation, implying a lesser status. While the Bible uses the term, modern Church often opt for language that is more immediately understood by a global, contemporary audience and less likely to invoke outdated or culturally specific baggage. "Multiple wives" is a straightforward, encompassing term for polygyny (a man having more than one wife) that avoids a potentially distracting discussion about the exact social status of every partner.

The purpose of the lesson text is to address the general principle that God has, at times, commanded plural marriage as an exception to the standard of monogamy. The term "multiple wives" adequately covers the practice without getting bogged down in the distinction between wives and concubines, which isn't the theological point the curriculum is trying to make about the Patriarchal figures.

The curriculum does not de-emphasize the purpose of raising "seed unto [the Lord]." The manual references Jacob 2:30, which directly states God commands the practice "that he may raise up seed unto me."  Doctrine and Covenants 132 itself, particularly verse 63, mentions the continuation of "seed" in fulfilling the Abrahamic promise of a numerous posterity, it indeed remains a promise for the seed of Abraham.

Edited November 13, 2025 by Pyreaux

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Come Follow Me is discussing Doctrine and Covenants 129-132 this week.

Many people who read the Old Testament wonder about Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and others 
marrying multiple wives.

Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard of marriage (see the section 
heading to Official Declaration 1; Jacob 2:27, 30). However, there have been times when 
God has commanded His children to practice plural marriage.

They did not use the phrase "many wives and concubines"; instead they used "multiple wives".

Why not portray it like it's recorded in D&C?  Was it meant to de-emphasize one of its main
purposes - to have much seed?

Because the term “multiple wives” includes both full status wives and the wives of lesser status known as concubines. Even so, the early Latter-Day Saint practitioners of plural marriage didn’t engage in concubinage, so why unnecessary draw attention to a controversial ancient marital practice that wasn’t practiced by Latter-Day Saints? You’ll surely understand that the inclusion of the term concubines could easily cause some modern readers to get the wrong idea that the early Latter-Day Saint practitioners of plural marriage engaged in concubinage. 

Edited November 13, 2025 by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Sex slaves definitely existed, but concubines were not sex slaves.  They could be previous slaves or servants (not all servants were slaves of course) but once made a concubine were considered wives of a lower status, with some protections and rights associated with that that slaves did not have.

For most women in the OT era, it was better to be a concubine than a servant.

I note in passing that two of Jacob's/Israel's "partners" aka "concubines" were Bilhah and Zilpah, handmaidens of his legal wives Leah and Rebecca. The interesting thing about them is that rabbinical literature says that they were either half-sisters of Leah and Rebecca (same father, different mothers), or were cousins of some degree to Leah and Rebecca (making them cousins of Israel as well). The authorities differ. So they weren't exactly servants. Israel's family was complicated.

Edited November 13, 2025 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

Generally concubines were slaves. For all practical purposes they were even if they weren’t explicitly a slave (and most were slaves). They had less power than full wives and full wives didn’t have much power. The Torah talks primarily about two kinds of slavery. One is debt slavery and the other is chattel slavery. Debt slavery was temporary for adult male Israelites (or forever if you married another slave and didn’t want to leave your wife), maybe temporary for female adult Israelites (depends which law code you read), and permanent for non-Israelites and probably also for children. Chattel slavery was forever or until you were voluntarily released. 

The King James translation hides a lot of slavery. The servants in the New Testament in the parables are usually slaves. The handmaidens are slaves. A lot of the parables compare God to a slaveowner and the people working for Him as slaves. That puts a bit of a question mark on the D&C when God talks about people being his servants and calling Emma His handmaid.

[telnetd]

On 11/13/2025 at 2:30 PM, rpn said:

I would say that we don't commonly use "concubines" and frankly we don't know or care about how it was done in scriptural times, so why not discuss it the way we do now.  

I understand how the church views it today, but this week's Come Follow Me lesson 
focused on how things were handled in the past. It’s hard to study this section without
addressing what previously happened.

I’ve got a few followup questions for you and for the other forum members who replied
in the thread.

@bluebell  @CV75   @Pyreaux  @teddyaware                 

"I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David 
and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having 
many wives and concubines ... "David also received many wives and concubines, and 
also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the 
beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those 
things which they received not of me".

Do you believe Abraham, Jacob and Moses had many wives and concubines?

Which others from the beginning of creation, between Adam to after Solomon, and from
New Testament or Book of Mormon times to 1830 do you think were justified by God to
have many wives and concubines?

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I understand how the church views it today, but this week's Come Follow Me lesson 
focused on how things were handled in the past. It’s hard to study this section without
addressing what previously happened.

I’ve got a few followup questions for you and for the other forum members who replied
in the thread.

@bluebell  @CV75   @Pyreaux  @teddyaware                 

"I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David 
and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having 
many wives and concubines ... "David also received many wives and concubines, and 
also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the 
beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those 
things which they received not of me".

Do you believe Abraham, Jacob and Moses had many wives and concubines?

Which others from the beginning of creation, between Adam to after Solomon, and from
New Testament or Book of Mormon times to 1830 do you think were justified by God to
have many wives and concubines?

I do think they had many wives and some had many concubines as well.  They were justified when they were following God and were sinning when they weren't.

[webbles]

21 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Do you believe Abraham, Jacob and Moses had many wives and concubines?

The Bible shows Abraham had at least 3 (Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah) and Jacob had 4 (Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, and Zilpah).

Moses, per the Bible, may or may not have had multiple wives.  It names Zipporah and also a Cushite woman in 1 Numbers 12:1.  There's debate on whether they are the same woman or 2 different women.  If the later, there is debate on whether Zipporah had died by that time or if it was polygamous.  And outside of the Bible, Josephus mentioned a story that Moses had married an Ethopian woman before his exile.

[ZealouslyStriving]

42 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I understand how the church views it today, but this week's Come Follow Me lesson 
focused on how things were handled in the past. It’s hard to study this section without
addressing what previously happened.

I’ve got a few followup questions for you and for the other forum members who replied
in the thread.

@bluebell  @CV75   @Pyreaux  @teddyaware                 

"I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David 
and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having 
many wives and concubines ... "David also received many wives and concubines, and 
also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the 
beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those 
things which they received not of me".

Do you believe Abraham, Jacob and Moses had many wives and concubines?

Which others from the beginning of creation, between Adam to after Solomon, and from
New Testament or Book of Mormon times to 1830 do you think were justified by God to
have many wives and concubines?

Elkanah (Samuel the prophet's father)

King Josiah

any man that faithfully followed the mandates of the Mosaic Law concerning men with multiple wives.

Edited November 15, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

I understand how the church views it today, but this week's Come Follow Me lesson 
focused on how things were handled in the past. It’s hard to study this section without
addressing what previously happened.

I’ve got a few followup questions for you and for the other forum members who replied
in the thread.

@bluebell  @CV75   @Pyreaux  @teddyaware                 

"I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David 
and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having 
many wives and concubines ... "David also received many wives and concubines, and 
also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the 
beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those 
things which they received not of me".

Do you believe Abraham, Jacob and Moses had many wives and concubines?

Which others from the beginning of creation, between Adam to after Solomon, and from
New Testament or Book of Mormon times to 1830 do you think were justified by God to
have many wives and concubines?

The scriptures do not explicitly name all polygamous relationships justified by God but leaves open the possibility that this principle was known or practiced by early righteous figures, unjudged figures and also those later judged wicked but not because they were polygamists. The scriptural and historical record suggest that these figures practiced sanctioned plural marriage:

I'll add here many Jews think Adam supposedly married Lilith (Isaiah 34:14) who was created from dust (Genesis 1:27) while Eve is created later from Adam's rib (Genesis 2:22).

Lamech had two wives, Adah and Zillah (Genesis 4:19).

Abraham had his wife Sarah, taking Hagar (Sarah's handmaid) as a wife/concubine (Genesis 16:3), and marrying Keturah after Sarah's death (Genesis 25:1). Abraham took Hagar and was justified by all local laws in doing so.

Nahor, Abraham’s brother had wives and concubines who bore children (Gen. 22:20–24)

Jacob (Israel) had his two wives, Leah and Rachel, and their handmaidens, Zilpah and Bilhah, who are referred to as concubines and sometimes as wives (Genesis 29-30, 35:22). 

Simeon, Jacob’s son has polygyny mentioned in genealogical records (1 Chron. 4:24). 

Issachar, Jacob’s son has Polygamy mentioned in genealogical records (1 Chron. 7:1–4).

Moses married Zipporah (Exodus 2:21) and later mentions he married an Ethiopian woman (Numbers 12:1).

Caleb had several wives (1 Chronicles 2:18, 4:5). He is consistently portrayed as a righteous leader (Numbers 13:30).

Judge Gideon had "many wives" and a concubine (Judges 8:30–31) a hero of faith in Hebrews 11.

Judge Ibzan had 30 sons and 30 daughters whom he married out (Judges 12:8–9). This number implies plural marriage.

Judge Jair had 30 sons who rode on 30 donkey colts (Judges 10:3–4). Implies plural marriage.

Judge Abdon had 40 sons and 30 grandsons (Judges 12:13–15). Implies plural marriage. 

Elkanah had two wives, Hannah and Peninnah. A righteous, God-fearing man (1 Samuel 1:2) 

King Saul had at least two wives. Ahinoam and Rizpah and concubines (1 Samuel 14:50; 2 Samuel 3:7, 12:8).

King David had at least eight wives, including Michal, Abigail, and Bathsheba (2 Samuel 12:8). David was justified in his plural marriages, but not in his sin with Bathsheba.

King Solomon was known for having 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3), I think the scrolls are actually blank with a literal dash "-", the numbers are thought of as latter embellishment of translators. Solomon was justified in the plural wives he received of the Lord, but sinned by taking the unauthorized wives who turned his heart to other gods.

King Ahab had multiple wives (1 Kings 20:7).

King Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines (2 Chronicles 11:21).

King Abijah had 14 wives (2 Chronicles 13:21).

King Jehoram took multiple wives (2 Chron. 21:5–6).

King Joash had two wives (2 Chronicles 24:1-3).

King Ahasuerus had two wives, Vashti and Esther (Esther 1:10-12; 2:1-17).

King Zedekiah had multiple wives (Jeremiah 38:23)

King Jehoiachin is mentioned as having wives with him in captivity (2 Kings 24:15)

Hosea by implication had two wives, was forced to marry the harlot Gomer as commanded (Hosea 1:3; 3:1)

Ezra had two wives, one was Jehudijah (1 Chronicles 4:17-18)

Ashur took two wives, Helah and Naarah (1 Chron. 4:5).

Mered took two wives, Bithiah and another from Judah (1 Chron. 4:18). 

Shaharaim took two wives, Hushim and Baara (1 Chron. 8:8).

Heman, Descendant of Levi, the lineage (1 Chron. 6:33).

Shimei, Descendant of Reuben had 16 sons and 6 daughters, implying plural marriage (1 Chron. 5:4).

Manasseh listed as having a concubine who bore a son (1 Chron. 7:14). 

Machir is listed as having Maachah and Zelophehad (1 Chron. 7:15).

The Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon soon established the general law of monogamy (Jacob 2:27) but allows for the divine exception "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" (Jacob 2:30). This suggests that throughout Nephite history, there were no widespread or commanded instances of the practice. It acknowledges the Law of Moses allowed it, and they were going against it.

New Testament

Christian Father of the Fornicator in 1 Corinthians 5:1 had a son that had fornicated with his "father's wife", who is not his mother. Indeed, the term, "father's wife", is a very specific term, differentiated in Deuteronomy 27:20, 16. The father is a polygamist.

Polygamy was likely discouraged among Jews in the Greco-Roman world, but it was not strictly illegal according to Jewish law. The rabbis of the Mishna and Talmudic periods (1st to 6th centuries) show evidence that plural marriage still occurred, although they placed severe restrictions on it. For instance, a man had to prove he could financially and emotionally support multiple wives.

Josephus, the 1st-century Jewish historian, mentions that King Herod the Great had multiple wives, illustrating that polygamy existed among the elite, even if it was uncommon for the average Jew.

Joseph Smith, for the Latter-day Saints, the next person justified by God to teach and practice this principle was Joseph Smith himself, beginning in the 1830s.

Sanctioned Concubinage

The story of Hagar had divine acknowledgment of the relationship that resulted in a son, Ishmael, even if the initial arrangement was following the customs of the entire ancient Near East, where a barren wife could give her handmaid to her husband to bear children on her behalf. Hagar became a secondary wife or concubine to Abraham, Issac was the heir of the covenant.

The Angel of the Lord commanded Hagar "Return to your mistress and submit to her authority" (Genesis 16:9). and promised a blessed child if she did, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly" and told her to name the child Ishmael (Genesis 16:10-11).

The account of the prophet Nathan confronting David over his sin with Bathsheba provides the most explicit statement that God gave David his wives and concubines, thereby sanctioning plural marriage as a principle for him.

Nathan recites God's goodness to David, including this direct statement about his marital status: "I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added as much more" (2 Samuel 12:8).

This confirms that the wives and concubines of David's predecessor, King Saul, were transferred to David by divine authority, and the Lord acknowledges giving David multiple wives as a blessing.

Such passages are clear, unambiguous statements that God sanctioned, provided, and justified David's plural marriages and concubine relationships.

The Commandments of Levirate Law Mandated Polygamy

The core biblical rule for levirate marriage is found in Deuteronomy 25:5–6. It states that if a man dies childless, his brother must marry the widow to raise up an heir for the deceased. The brother was obligated to take the widow as a second wife, even if he already had a wife of his own.

The Case of Judah and Tamar

The classic biblical example of this duty is the story of Judah's sons and Tamar (Genesis 38).

Judah's eldest son, Er, died childless. Judah commanded his second son, Onan, to marry Tamar (his deceased brother's wife). Onan knew the child would not legally be his, and he refused the duty, for which God killed him. Judah was then obligated to give his third son, Shelah, to Tamar, which he failed to do.

Both would have been mandated into polygamy had they married Tamar while already having another wife, or they would have been restricted from marrying anyone else for their own children's inheritance until they fulfilled the duty to Tamar.

Boaz married Ruth (Ruth 4:1-12) governed by the laws of levirate marriage. He had to raise seed in his brother's name, but nothing is said whether he bore his own children for his inheritance. 

Edited November 15, 2025 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

"I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David 
and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having 
many wives and concubines ... "David also received many wives and concubines, and 
also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the 
beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those 
things which they received not of me".

The problem with this is that it isn’t suggested in the Biblical text that God had to approve of men taking additional wives or concubines. The Mosaic Law doesn’t put any such provisos on Israelites marrying additional wives or buying concubines or taking war captives as sex slaves.

[InCognitus]

On 11/13/2025 at 10:43 AM, telnetd said:

They did not use the phrase "many wives and concubines"; instead they used "multiple wives".

Concubines were considered to be wives, so it may not be necessary to distinguish the difference.  Take Abraham for example:

"And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." (Genesis 16:3)

"Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." (Genesis 25:1)

Edited November 16, 2025 by InCognitus

[InCognitus]

10 hours ago, webbles said:

And outside of the Bible, Josephus mentioned a story that Moses had married an Ethopian woman before his exile.

I was just going to mention this, and then I saw you had already done so.

This is the Josephus reference (correlating with Numbers 12:1):

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews — Book II, Chapter 10:

 

"Tharbis was the daughter of the King of the Ethiopians: she happened to see Moses, as he led the army near to the walls, and fought with great courage: and admiring the subtilty of his undertakings, and believing him to be the author of the Egyptian success, when they had before despaired of recovering their liberty; and to be the occasion of the great danger the Ethiopians were in, when they had before boasted of their great achievements, she fell deeply in love with him: and upon the prevalence of that passion, sent to him the most faithful of all her servants to discourse with him upon their marriage. He thereupon accepted the offer, on condition she would procure the delivering up of the city; and gave her the assurance of an oath to take her to his wife: and that when he had once taken possession of the city he would not break his oath to her. No sooner was the agreement made, but it took effect immediately: and when Moses had cut off the Ethiopians, he gave thanks to God, and consummated his marriage, and led the Egyptians back to their own land."

[Chum]

Quote

the Latin expression concubina derives from con (with) and cubare (to lie)

To Lay With:  She is a woman who is to be sexually available to a man who isn't her husband. 
She is to birth children who either won't be hers or will be hers to raise on her own.

The payout for this relationship: Having even less rights than wives did. To exist in a type of relationship that women get shamed for in every age. To be cut loose one day and to have the sort of life-options that are available to women who are at that age + have that history. 

In every inch of this I see markers of non-consensuality. 
Certainly, I think this isn't something women aspired to. I doubt that worthwhile dads wanted this for daughters they loved.  I don't think their Father in Heaven did either.

[Stargazer]

On 11/15/2025 at 6:07 AM, The Nehor said:

The King James translation hides a lot of slavery. The servants in the New Testament in the parables are usually slaves. The handmaidens are slaves. A lot of the parables compare God to a slaveowner and the people working for Him as slaves. That puts a bit of a question mark on the D&C when God talks about people being his servants and calling Emma His handmaid.

Well, I don't know about you, but I am a slave of Christ. 

This isn't original with me, of course. In Romans 1:1, Paul calls himself "a slave of Christ Jesus" and later in Romans 6:18, he writes "You have been set free from sin and become slaves to righteousness."

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Chum said:

Certainly, I think this isn't something women aspired to. I doubt that worthwhile dads wanted this for daughters they loved.  I don't think their Father in Heaven did either.

Since it almost always put the woman into a higher social circle with more rights than she previously had, it very much could have been something that women of the status that could become concubines aspired to, or at least tolerated (in the same way that so many women today seek after and tolerate marriage to fat rich old men they don't love because of the money, even though they know the men only want them for what they provide sexually). 

In these earliest eras of written history, marrying for love was not really a thing, and in OT culture fathers typically gave their daughters in marriage to whoever they wanted without the daughters having any rights to refuse.  Even women of very high status had very little to no autonomy.  

Concubines were considered wives, just wives of a lesser status with fewer rights.  But they did have rights that came with the relationship.  Women had so very few rights during this timeframe of history that a woman without a husband was especially susceptible to abuse and starvation.  Plus, she could not legitimately have any children and legitimate children improved women's status immensely.

We are so far removed from what life was like for women this long ago that we have to be careful not to judge their choices and lives based on the amount of agency we have today.

[MustardSeed]

Problem being that we so often turn to scripture as the final word .  
Section  132 comes off as manipulative on the part of Joseph to me.  
 It puts in to question the validity of scripture for me. 
 

Also, all the various interpretations of this lesson is annoying to me.  It was what it was.  

Edited November 16, 2025 by MustardSeed

[Senator]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Well, I don't know about you, but I am a slave of Christ. 

I’m not! And I don’t believe for one second that Christ wants me to be his slave. 
I understand Paul’s somewhat ironic use of the metaphor, but it is distasteful to me.  I hate slavery.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Senator said:

I’m not! And I don’t believe for one second that Christ wants me to be his slave. 
I understand Paul’s somewhat ironic use of the metaphor, but it is distasteful to me.  I hate slavery.

Slavery is a removal of agency.  Even if one chooses rather than agency being taken from you to give agency up and let another be your ruler, I don’t think that’s what God wants, even if it’s him.  He wants us to choose to follow him and to continue to do so to grow our agency, not abdicate it.  Given the limitations of career choice, education, even limitations of food and shelter, slavery perhaps wasn’t a huge difference from being in the economic lower classes, subsistence living, so it’s understandable if it was easier in Paul’s day to rationalize slavery, but we should know better being able to experience more freedoms in our lives, especially for many of us, freedom from fear of starvation or homelessness (though even in this board there are those who have endured that and face the possibility of it happening again.  Also Paul’s culture had a different world view than we do of relationships between classes, a patron-client community.  There are some benefits from that type of relationship that we lack, but I believe God wants us to move past both types of community and all others of this fallen world into a celestial relationship of oneness.

Edited November 16, 2025 by Calm