Fashion Question

[Thinking]

The peek a boo shoulder is very popular right now.

Quote

Men and women—including young men and young women—should wear clothing that covers the shoulder and avoid clothing that is low cut in the front or back or revealing in any other manner. Link

I'm curious what the posters on this board think of the peek a boo shoulder.

Would/do you allow your daughters to wear a shirt with peek a boo shoulders?

Would/do you discourage your sons from hanging out with girls who wear tops with peek a boo shoulders?

[rodheadlee]

I don't have a daughter or a son but  I'd let my children decide for themselves depending on their age and maturity.

[carbon dioxide]

I say lets just bring the burka into LDS practice.  Then we can cover those ankles and wrists and everything else.

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

The peek a boo shoulder is very popular right now.

I'm curious what the posters on this board think of the peek a boo shoulder.

Would/do you allow your daughters to wear a shirt with peek a boo shoulders?

Would/do you discourage your sons from hanging out with girls who wear tops with peek a boo shoulders?

Actually if you read beyond further, its gets even more interesting. 

" Tight pants, tight shirts, excessively baggy clothing, wrinkled apparel, and unkempt hair are not appropriate.... We should always be neat and clean, avoiding sloppiness or inappropriate casualness."

I think this is a little over the top.  What is wrong with wrinkled  or baggy clothes and looking a sloppy?  If someone does not want to comb their hair, I see nothing wrong with that.   I love Elder Hales but I think he just went a little too far on this one.  Being modest is good but it is easier to teach and practice modesty by focusing on common sense and not having so many rules that it it turns it into a little bit of a joke.   If I am going to Walmart to shop, I want to be sloppy and have some unkempt hair just to be part of the Walmart experience.  Also as I get older, I really don't care what I wear or look like.  I am not out to impress anyone. 

Another part says

" Now think of how inappropriate it is to go out into the world or come to church dressed in clothes that do not represent who you really are in spirit. Our outward appearance and behavior give a message. What message are we sending?"

I have to say personally when I go shopping or go get some gas, I am not really out to send a message.  If nobody sees me that is fine.  If people leave me alone, all the better.  The more I blend into the background, the better.  I am sort of like that at church as well.  I don't really want to be noticed that much. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[sunstoned]

When did bare shoulders become immodest? It didn't use to be that way in the church.  BYU homecoming queens in the 1960's routinely wore strap dresses.  Modesty is one thing, but the church has taken this to an obsession.  It has become so bad that female angels in illustrations of classic works of art  now have cap shoulders photo shopped on them (http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2012/05/on-immodest-angels/).  

One of the problems as I see it is that the church has redefined modesty to mean what a woman/girl wears or doesn't wear. Here is a study that tracks the rise of modesty rhetoric in the church. 

https://religionnews.com/2014/06/05/mormon-shoulder-war-whats-stake/

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

The peek a boo shoulder is very popular right now.

I'm curious what the posters on this board think of the peek a boo shoulder.

Would/do you allow your daughters to wear a shirt with peek a boo shoulders?

Would/do you discourage your sons from hanging out with girls who wear tops with peek a boo shoulders?

Maybe it would help if you defined "peek a boo shoulder."

 

[Thinking]

30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe it would help if you defined "peek a boo shoulder."

Google.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Actually if you read beyond further, its gets even more interesting. 

" Tight pants, tight shirts, excessively baggy clothing, wrinkled apparel, and unkempt hair are not appropriate.... We should always be neat and clean, avoiding sloppiness or inappropriate casualness."

I think this is a little over the top.  What is wrong with wrinkled  or baggy clothes and looking a sloppy?  If someone does not want to comb their hair, I see nothing wrong with that.   I love Elder Hales but I think he just went a little too far on this one.  Being modest is good but it is easier to teach and practice modesty by focusing on common sense and not having so many rules that it it turns it into a little bit of a joke.   If I am going to Walmart to shop, I want to be sloppy and have some unkempt hair just to be part of the Walmart experience.  Also as I get older, I really don't care what I wear or look like.  I am not out to impress anyone. 

Another part says

" Now think of how inappropriate it is to go out into the world or come to church dressed in clothes that do not represent who you really are in spirit. Our outward appearance and behavior give a message. What message are we sending?"

I have to say personally when I go shopping or go get some gas, I am not really out to send a message.  If nobody sees me that is fine.  If people leave me alone, all the better.  The more I blend into the background, the better.  I am sort of like that at church as well.  I don't really want to be noticed that much. 

7 out of 10 Pharisees support these standards. More to come on how many steps allowed on the sabbath. Stay tune.

Edited May 17, 2018 by california boy

[Bernard Gui]

Sister Gui, my daughter Bellalindissima, and all my daughters-in-law have the common sense to declare the obvious truth about peek-a-boo shoulder attire....it is unflattering and  uuuuggglllleeee. I agree wholeheartedly. Gosh-awful uuuugggglllleeeee. Crivens, what are the fashion czars thinking? And why do the lemmings follow?

As far as not letting my sons hang out with the intentionly ripped blouse crowd, I don’t know how one would be able to do that, but one hopes they would at least choose to go around with girls whose taste buds were not shot off in the war.

As for neatness, two of my sons recently noted that my dad, Isadoro Gui was shaved every morning, his hair was always combed, and he was always nicely dressed, even on picnics and outings. He really took pride in his appearance, though he didn’t have much money. I think he learned that from his parents and the years he spent in the Army before and during WW2. It didn’t make him a Pharisee or a bad person. My mom was equally well-kept. She used to say, “Clothes and a haircut make the man.” God bless them both. But times have changed.

Over my 70 years I have noticed a distinct corruption of our manner of public presentation and discourse. For example, early in my music career people always dressed in suits and dresses for concerts, weddings, receptions, funerals, parties, holidays, Church, etc. Not anymore. At our symphony concert last week, maybe a quarter of the audience was dressed in what used to be considered appropriate attire. The idea was to show respect for the occasion. Not so much now.   We have become coarser in our dress, speech, behavior...expectations are much lower. I don’t believe that this has improved our culture much.

I say go ahead, be sloppy, unkempt, dress down. Who cares any more? Walmart shopping is our new societal standard.

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Hamba Tuhan]

38 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

... the intentionly ripped blouse crowd ...

Ah, I think I know what the OP is discussing now. We have a member of our parliament, intentionally provocative in dress and manner, who has such a top. The first time she wore it, I genuinely thought she had been assaulted and ran from her attackers as they held onto her sleeves. 

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

The peek a boo shoulder is very popular right now.

I'm curious what the posters on this board think of the peek a boo shoulder.

Would/do you allow your daughters to wear a shirt with peek a boo shoulders?

Would/do you discourage your sons from hanging out with girls who wear tops with peek a boo shoulders?

I would say the honeybooboo shoulder does not cover the shoulder. I like that the standard uses terms such as "should" and "avoid".

[Marginal Gains]

Once again the point is missed.

Immodesty is in the eye of the beholder. If you have a modesty problem with a peekaboo shoulder, that is YOUR problem. Learn to control yourself for crying out loud!

Edited May 17, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[snowflake]

10 hours ago, Thinking said:

The peek a boo shoulder is very popular right now.

I'm curious what the posters on this board think of the peek a boo shoulder.

Would/do you allow your daughters to wear a shirt with peek a boo shoulders?

Would/do you discourage your sons from hanging out with girls who wear tops with peek a boo shoulders?

From the Ensign article

Of course, modesty is not new. It was taught to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. “Unto Adam … and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them” (Genesis 3:21; see also Moses 4:27). Like Adam and Eve, we have been taught that our bodies are formed in the likeness of God and are therefore sacred.

I don't think Elder Hales could have possibly misrepresented scripture any worse......classic LDS! 

 

[Amulek]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

The peek a boo shoulder is very popular right now.

I've noticed that as well.

 

Quote

I'm curious what the posters on this board think of the peek a boo shoulder.

Not much, honestly. It's a trend and, just like any other trend, it will be popular for a time and then fade...possibly to return...possibly not. 

Just like big shoulder pads, parachute pants, or Members Only jackets.

 

Quote

Would/do you allow your daughters to wear a shirt with peek a boo shoulders?

My twelve year old daughter doesn't own any tops with peek a boo shoulders. She isn't that in to fashion though; she's far more fixated on how long she has to wait before we'll allow her to have a cell phone.

If she wanted to buy one with her own money though, I wouldn't stop her. I don't love the style personally, but I don't think it's terribly immodest either. 

We live in Texas and have a hard enough time finding quasi-modest shorts for her to wear in the summer. I'm not going to lose any sleep if she wants to buy a shirt that's got holes for shoulders. 

 

Quote

Would/do you discourage your sons from hanging out with girls who wear tops with peek a boo shoulders?

I would hope that by the time my son is old enough to start hanging out with girls, he will have learned from his parents that one should not judge a woman based solely on the clothes she chooses to wear. 

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

Oh, this thread again?

Seems like everyone is getting their righteous indignation fix over LDS having some rather banal standards. Good. Good. All is right with the world.

[bluebell]

 

Here are a couple examples of the peek-a-boo shoulder.  While I think the style is kind of funny looking, I don't think that it's immodest and for someone who hasn't been endowed, I don't have a problem with it.

[rongo]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

I'm curious what the posters on this board think of the peek a boo shoulder.

Would/do you allow your daughters to wear a shirt with peek a boo shoulders?

No. 

Would/do you discourage your sons from hanging out with girls who wear tops with peek a boo shoulders?

Also no. Many young women in the ward wear these, and many friends as well. It's not an obsession in our house.

I go to the whole week of girls and boys camp. At girls camp two years ago, during a whole-camp meeting, a member of the stake YW presidency pointed out to me that one of my young women (an inactive girl we were glad to have with us) was wearing a tank top. I thanked her for pointing that out and continued listening to whatever was being said to the group. She was angry at me and then worked her way through the crowd to tell the girl to "cover up" (someone gave her a jacket to diffuse the situation). Afterwards, she scolded me and my leaders for not policing the stake YW presidency's standards (which also ban capris and shorts). I told her, be completely honest, I hadn't noticed that she was wearing a tank top. And I really hadn't. Until she pointed it out, I hadn't noticed at all. There are other stories and experiences I could share with this particular sister . . .

My approach is much more one of my family living in such a way that others will want to be like us (quiet but effective example), without making a big production about it. I think this does more to "enforce the norms and mores" of the group than "policing" does. 

[The Mean Farmer]

I'm fine with it.

And I think that Mens garment tops should have the sleeves trimmed up several inches or removed.

[rongo]

1 minute ago, The Mean Farmer said:

I'm fine with it.

And I think that Mens garment tops should have the sleeves trimmed up several inches or removed.

Why? My garment sleeves never show, but then, I wear normal shirts. 

I tease my male high school students wearing muscle shirts sometimes that there has been a change to the dress code, so they're going to have to put on a shirt. You're now only allowed to wear muscle shirts if you have muscles . . .  

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

I've noticed that as well.

 

Not much, honestly. It's a trend and, just like any other trend, it will be popular for a time and then fade...possibly to return...possibly not. 

Just like big shoulder pads, parachute pants, or Members Only jackets.

 

My twelve year old daughter doesn't own any tops with peek a boo shoulders. She isn't that in to fashion though; she's far more fixated on how long she has to wait before we'll allow her to have a cell phone.

If she wanted to buy one with her own money though, I wouldn't stop her. I don't love the style personally, but I don't think it's terribly immodest either. 

We live in Texas and have a hard enough time finding quasi-modest shorts for her to wear in the summer. I'm not going to lose any sleep if she wants to buy a shirt that's got holes for shoulders. 

 

I would hope that by the time my son is old enough to start hanging out with girls, he will have learned from his parents that one should not judge a woman based solely on the clothes she chooses to wear. 

 

 

 

When I was in YWs in the mid 90s, sleeveless stuff was perfectly acceptable.  I'm not talking spaghetti straps but sleeveless shirts were no big deal.  We wore them on temple trips even and no one, including the bishop, batted an eye.  

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Once again the point is missed.

Immodesty is in the eye of the beholder. If you have a modesty problem with a peekaboo shoulder, that is YOUR problem. Learn to control yourself for crying out loud!

Not so. Modesty is a positive and powerful attribute of one’s character that demonstrates respect for social and religious conventions, for self, and for others. It can be nurtured and celebrated and it can be debased and destroyed. 

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

When I was in YWs in the mid 90s, sleeveless stuff was perfectly acceptable.  I'm not talking spaghetti straps but sleeveless shirts were no big deal.  We wore them on temple trips even and no one, including the bishop, batted an eye.  

If he did, we would probably be reading about him in the news now. 😉

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not so. Modesty is a positive and powerful attribute of one’s character that demonstrates respect for social and religious conventions, for self, and for others. It can be nurtured and celebrated and it can be debased and destroyed. 

Modesty is also about not wearing super expensive clothes or being flamboyant in style or dress, etc.  It's about being moderate and unassuming.  People can be fully covered and still be very immodest.

[Bernard Gui]

42 minutes ago, rongo said:

No. 

 

 

Also no. Many young women in the ward wear these, and many friends as well. It's not an obsession in our house.

I go to the whole week of girls and boys camp. At girls camp two years ago, during a whole-camp meeting, a member of the stake YW presidency pointed out to me that one of my young women (an inactive girl we were glad to have with us) was wearing a tank top. I thanked her for pointing that out and continued listening to whatever was being said to the group. She was angry at me and then worked her way through the crowd to tell the girl to "cover up" (someone gave her a jacket to diffuse the situation). Afterwards, she scolded me and my leaders for not policing the stake YW presidency's standards (which also ban capris and shorts). I told her, be completely honest, I hadn't noticed that she was wearing a tank top. And I really hadn't. Until she pointed it out, I hadn't noticed at all. There are other stories and experiences I could share with this particular sister . . .

My approach is much more one of my family living in such a way that others will want to be like us (quiet but effective example), without making a big production about it. I think this does more to "enforce the norms and mores" of the group than "policing" does. 

Ignoring the problem doesn’t help. It’s not good to have a published standard that one is not willing or able to enforce. Perhaps a private conversation with an understanding adult sister would have been better. What would have been a better way to handle it? 

[Bernard Gui]

Just now, bluebell said:

Modesty is also about not wearing super expensive clothes or being flamboyant in style or dress, etc.  It's about being moderate and unassuming.  People can be fully covered and still be very immodest.

Indeed. There are many important aspects of modesty.