Trib article about the church's recent changes of it's polygamy cartoons for Primary children.

[MustardSeed]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I am not sure how I can give you a reference on this.  Do you think there are substantial non LDS persons  in the world who believe Mormon polygamy was really a revelation given to Joseph Smith?

Sorry, I must’ve misunderstood you. Retracting. 

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I am not sure how I can give you a reference on this.  Do you think there are substantial non LDS persons  in the world who believe Mormon polygamy was really a revelation given to Joseph Smith?

I don’t know about MS, but I thought you were referring to church members.  And I suspect a majority of active, believing members do believe it was revelation (though they may differ on the what, why, and how).  Which means there are likely millions out there who believe it.
 

But let’s deal with global numbers….

Percentage wise (.06% if I did the math correctly) of the entire population of the world, that’s not much.  But 5 million (going with activity rate of 40% of 16 million —from memory, may be off—and then assuming a majority, but not vast majority of active members and then just going ahead choosing a nice round number  ) is not a small, hardly anyone at all number.  That would be like saying hardly anyone was killed in the Korean War because 1.5 million is a drop in the bucket compared to the 2.7ish billion people living at the time.

Edited February 26, 2025 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t know about MS, but I thought you were referring to church members.  And I suspect a majority of active, believing members do believe it was revelation (though they may differ on the what, why, and how).  Which means there are likely millions out there who believe it.
 

Percentage wise of the entire population of the world, that’s not much.  But 5 million (going with activity rate of 40% of 16 million —from memory, may be off—and then assuming a majority, but not huge majority of active members and then just going ahead choosing a nice round number  ) is not a small, hardly anyone at all number.  That would be like saying hardly anyone was killed in the Korean War because 1.5 million is a drop in the bucket compared to the 2.7ish billion people living at the time.

I believe there are plenty of people in the church who do not believe polygamy was a directive by God and I believe there are plenty of people (probably more IMO) in the church who believed it was a directive  by God. 
For some reason when I read the comment initially, I thought he was saying that he doubted anybody in the church believed polygamy was not directed by God.  Apparently, he was saying that nobody outside the church thinks it was a directive from God. Which also is believable. I would assume that if somebody believed Joseph Smith were a prophet, baptism would likely be the next step.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I believe there are plenty of people in the church who do not believe polygamy was a directive by God and I believe there are plenty of people (probably more IMO) in the church who believed it was a directive  by God. 
For some reason when I read the comment initially, I thought he was saying that he doubted anybody in the church believed polygamy was not directed by God.  Apparently, he was saying that nobody outside the church thinks it was a directive from God. Which also is believable. I would assume that if somebody believed Joseph Smith were a prophet, baptism would likely be the next step.

Either that or deciding that this God person must be stopped at all costs.

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

To be honest I was having trouble understanding your comment.  🙃

That is very apparent. At any rate, I'm still glad you got it out of your system.  

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I don’t know about MS, but I thought you were referring to church members.  And I suspect a majority of active, believing members do believe it was revelation (though they may differ on the what, why, and how).  Which means there are likely millions out there who believe it.

I was not referring to church member but I guess I could see how that was misunderstood. I would imagine most active members believe it was a revelation. If they don't there is a big chink in their testimony armor.  So sure millions of LDS believe it. But they most certainly reject it for every other self proclaimed prophet that does it and claims it is because God told them to.  If LDS did not have a vested interest to believe Smith had a revelation I am pretty sure they would reject his claim.  And there are us formerly active members who eventually rejected it and that with other things lead to our disaffection. And then there is this odd group of Latter day Saints that argue Joseph was a monogamist and it was all Brigham's fault.  That seems really odd to me.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 

But let’s deal with global numbers….

Percentage wise (.06% if I did the math correctly) of the entire population of the world, that’s not much.  But 5 million (going with activity rate of 40% of 16 million —from memory, may be off—and then assuming a majority, but not vast majority of active members and then just going ahead choosing a nice round number  ) is not a small, hardly anyone at all number.  That would be like saying hardly anyone was killed in the Korean War because 1.5 million is a drop in the bucket compared to the 2.7ish billion people living at the time.

Well, it is pretty darn small. But the fact the a few million believe it means nothing as far as it being an actual revelation.

[Teancum]

On 2/25/2025 at 6:08 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Not exactly....

* They could accept the RLDS view that Brigham originated it and foisted it upon Joseph's name after his death, as the Stoneites have done, and try to steady the ark- or caste their lot in with the Restoration Branches people or the Bickertonites.

Well there are some active Latter day Saints who are arguing with fervor that Joseph did not do polygamy which is odd to me.

On 2/25/2025 at 6:08 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

*They could accept that Joseph taught it which caused him to fall, but doesn't negate his earlier work, and caste their lot in with the Temple Lot people or one of their Elijah Messenger offshoots.

There are options.

Sure.  How many active Latter day Saints do you think believe that.

[Injeun]

15 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well you take your pic. I think Jesus was likely a wonderful human if we can believe the non divine things the bible attributes to him.  I doubt he is the God Christianity made him into.  But how about we go with the guy that said Love God with all your heart and treat your neighbor like you want to be treated.  Mormon Polygamy does not seem to meet either of those unless you are really convinced some god commanded it, which some god did not. It all comes from the fertile mind and imagination of Joseph Smith.  

That's what you think. But what do you actually know? Do you know of God and his ways and what was in the heart and mind of Joseph Smith at every step of his life. If using the full weight of the disciplines of science, academia, archaeology, technology and personal testimony, you can't prove to a blind person that there is a sun in the sky, or the sounds of dawn to the deaf. Then does it make it an illusion and your assertion a fantasy. To neither see nor hear proof is evidence of ones own handicap, not the folly of the messenger.

[Injeun]

20 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

we have rules here. Rather than playing the victim it’s important that you respond to my CFR immediately.

What is a "CFR"?

[Rain]

51 minutes ago, Injeun said:

What is a "CFR"?

Call for references.  On this board it is in the rules to show evidence to what you are saying: the quote and where you find the quote, a study that showed those results etc.  

Edited February 27, 2025 by Rain

[Snodgrassian]

If polygamy truly was superior are just as beneficial as monogamy, I think there would be more relevant examples in the mainstream… not saying it can’t/won’t work for some. The way the Church implemented it was for not balanced for both men and women. You will never convince me that women benefitted and had an equitable position with their husband in a polygamous marriage. The sister wives situation mentioned above proves this. The husband is free to find additional partners, where the wives must share the time with their shared husband. 
 

I am interested to hear from those who are married, would you ever be ok practicing polygamy? 

[ZealouslyStriving]

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well there are some active Latter day Saints who are arguing with fervor that Joseph did not do polygamy which is odd to me.

Sure.  How many active Latter day Saints do you think believe that.

Oh, make no mistake, I wasn't saying many members accept or even know of the alternatives - I was just pointing out that there are alternatives.

 

[Injeun]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Call for references.  On this board it is in the rules to show evidence to what you are saying: the quote and where you find the quote, a study that showed those results etc.  

Thanks.

[Injeun]

Neither monogamy nor polygamy, when instituted by God, are immoral. To see sin in polygamy is a cultish mentality, akin to radical religions who say that for a woman to show her face or even her ankle is sinful and immoral. In truth, the sin is in the heart of the accuser, rather than in the heart or behavior of the accused. Neither the world nor the members of Gods Church establish his doctrines. The doctrines come from God thru his prophets. God chose to institute polygamy. And God chose to suspend it. Thus Gods holy work moves forward in a cloud of suspicion, justifying unbelievers and refining believers. Bringing his own closer, while keeping strangers at a distance.

[MustardSeed]

44 minutes ago, Injeun said:

Neither monogamy nor polygamy, when instituted by God, are immoral. To see sin in polygamy is a cultish mentality, akin to radical religions who say that for a woman to show her face or even her ankle is sinful and immoral. In truth, the sin is in the heart of the accuser, rather than in the heart or behavior of the accused. Neither the world nor the members of Gods Church establish his doctrines. The doctrines come from God thru his prophets. God chose to institute polygamy. And God chose to suspend it. Thus Gods holy work moves forward in a cloud of suspicion, justifying unbelievers and refining believers. Bringing his own closer, while keeping strangers at a distance.

You have an obligation to 1. answer the CFR or 2. Retract your claim. 

 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

You have an obligation to 1. answer the CFR or 2. Retract your claim. 

 

The CFR being show where MS said the Church wasn’t true, iirc.

”MS said, more or less, he/she didn't believe it was the true Church.”

Edited February 27, 2025 by Calm

[Teancum]

On 2/23/2025 at 9:26 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think it was downplayed because of an unhealthy obsession with trying to get along with the religious right. Hopefully, we have learned that they don't want us on their playground and we go back to being unapologetically unique. But, alas, trying to cuddle up to progressives seems to be the new obsession in many parts of the Church. We seem to easily forget we are sent to teach the world, not be taught by it.

And who is responsible for downplaying the KFD and its doctrinal contents?

[Injeun]

17 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

You have an obligation to 1. answer the CFR or 2. Retract your claim. 

 

Stop equivocating. Is Joseph Smith the prophet of the restoration of Gods true Church, or not? Clear the air. Are you a prisoner of Christ or a captive to deceit. Do you worship the living God or an image of what men have conjured? Did Jesus Christ teach the gospel of repentance or the gospel of whatever makes you happy. Are you the judge of God or is he the judge of you? Speak and obligate yourself, so there is no room for misunderstanding.

[MustardSeed]

32 minutes ago, Injeun said:

Stop equivocating. Is Joseph Smith the prophet of the restoration of Gods true Church, or not? Clear the air. Are you a prisoner of Christ or a captive to deceit. Do you worship the living God or an image of what men have conjured? Did Jesus Christ teach the gospel of repentance or the gospel of whatever makes you happy. Are you the judge of God or is he the judge of you? Speak and obligate yourself, so there is no room for misunderstanding.

I’m not sure who you think you are, but I’m done here. I owe you nothing, obviously. 

[bluebell]

22 hours ago, Snodgrassian said:

If polygamy truly was superior are just as beneficial as monogamy, I think there would be more relevant examples in the mainstream… not saying it can’t/won’t work for some. The way the Church implemented it was for not balanced for both men and women. You will never convince me that women benefitted and had an equitable position with their husband in a polygamous marriage. The sister wives situation mentioned above proves this. The husband is free to find additional partners, where the wives must share the time with their shared husband. 
 

I am interested to hear from those who are married, would you ever be ok practicing polygamy? 

Very true. For men, polygamy is multiplication. For women it is a division. That alone doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t be from God, but it does mean that polygamy is very different depending on which perspective/experience is being looked at.

Personally, I could probably do polygamy under certain circumstances but it would suck rocks. I can’t imagine finding any happiness in it sharing a man that you were fully and completely in love with.  And if he liked the other wife more, it would be living in hell. 

[ttribe]

Looks like we found ourselves another black-and-white thinking zealot. This should be interesting. Hey, @Injeun, unless you are Jesus, Himself, you have no right to talk to people they way you have so far.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

And who is responsible for downplaying the KFD and its doctrinal contents?

Not sure I follow...

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Looks like we found ourselves another black-and-white thinking zealot. This should be interesting. Hey, @Injeun, unless you are Jesus, Himself, you have no right to talk to people they way you have so far.

I’ve been wondering whose sock puppet he is. 

[Doctor Steuss]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

[...]
And if he liked the other wife more, it would be living in hell. 

I think this is one of the things about polygamy that's unavoidable for the vast majority of people.  Relationships are always going to be multifaceted, which inevitably leads to some level (even if unconscious) of inequality.  I remember the first time I read the poetry that one of my ancestors (Joel Hills Johnson) wrote to three of his wives in his journal.  It's been a while since I read them, but I recall two of the poems being incredibly romantic, and then one of them almost seemed like he was writing a poem about a business associate.  I hope he never shared those poems to those women, because I can only imagine the heartbreak and pain seeing how tender his feelings were for other wives, while his feelings for you were essentially "I like that you don't spend a lot of money."

[Teancum]

On 2/27/2025 at 10:47 AM, Injeun said:

That's what you think.

Umm yea of course.

On 2/27/2025 at 10:47 AM, Injeun said:

But what do you actually know?

Define know.

On 2/27/2025 at 10:47 AM, Injeun said:

Do you know of God and his ways

If there is a God nobody knows about its ways, though a lot of people claim they do and/or pretend they do.  And a lot have convinced themselves they do.  But they really don't.

On 2/27/2025 at 10:47 AM, Injeun said:

and what was in the heart and mind of Joseph Smith at every step of his life. 

Nobody knows what is in the mind and heart of anyone. We can only evaluate a persons actions and then make a call on whether we trust them or not.

On 2/27/2025 at 10:47 AM, Injeun said:

 

f using the full weight of the disciplines of science, academia, archaeology, technology and personal testimony, you can't prove to a blind person that there is a sun in the sky, or the sounds of dawn to the deaf. Then does it make it an illusion and your assertion a fantasy. To neither see nor hear proof is evidence of ones own handicap, not the folly of the messenger.

What is your point?

Edited February 28, 2025 by Teancum