Trib article about the church's recent changes of it's polygamy cartoons for Primary children.

[Teancum]

5 minutes ago, Injeun said:

Then I must  conclude that you never had a personal testimony.

 

Well you would be wrong. You are just like the evangelical Christian who says about the disaffected born again Christian..."Well they were never really saved."  This type of thinking is disgusting and arrogantly pious. 

And why won't you answer my questions?  Define what "to know" means when used in your testimony.  And why are you right in you testimony and others in different faith that you reject wrong in theirs.  Answer the question. Maybe you have never considered this seriously and your testimony is not all that grand and strong. You seem unable to deal with someone who says they believe but is more nuanced.

5 minutes ago, Injeun said:

 

You just went along to get along, pretending, parroting and repeating what others said.

Oh sure. I just pretended while I served a mission and converted 50 people in a tough mission to gain converts. I just pretended while I married in the temple and for 52 years of my life was as devoted and any Latter-day Saint I have ever met.  I just gave hundreds of thousands of $ in tithes and offerings while just pretending. I pretended while serving as a EQ councilor and president, HP group leader, ward mission leader, YM President, bishopric councilor and bishop for about 6 year and so on. Sure it was all pretend. And all the thousand hours I spent as an apologist, it was all pretend.  Sure you bet. 

Good lord what a pious arrogant person you seem to be.

 

5 minutes ago, Injeun said:

 

Eventually your con ran its course and perished under the adversary's barrage

No it ran its course and I found out it was all a fraud and lie and it was devastating. Still is in some ways.

5 minutes ago, Injeun said:

 

.And to deal with it, you blamed the Church for your own deceit. Now you must push away, deny and disbelieve everything that might bring you back to that sad point which is too great to face....that of your crisis and departure. You didn't leave the Church. You left your own scam, and the Church holding your bag. Now you turn around and accuse the Church of your own scam. It is really quite devious and spiteful. There are a lot of people like you, victims of their own shortcuts. It is selfish and immature, and witness to the adversary's sophistry. The GA's are constantly exhorting members to seek and find personal witness that God lives and the Church is his, to attempt to prevent the very thing you have brought about. The Church doesn't teach us to fool ourselves and others. That is your own concoction. And it is a lie.

I think you are likely projecting and your testimony it really fragile weak and simple and you just cannot bear the thought that honest active members who gave their whole lives to the church are leaving because they have determined the church is not what it claims. So you have to disparage, insult, marginalize and demonize them. All in order to keep your precious weak kneed testimony intact.  If you really are an LDS believer, and I am suspecting you are troll, you are a pathetic example of what it means to be a Latter day Saint.

[Teancum]

18 minutes ago, Injeun said:

That isn't true either. You are on a roll.

Consider my questions a CFR. Why is your testimony the right one when others have similar "spiritual experiences" to things they claim are true but conflict with what you believe?  

Define what to know means in context of your testimony. 

 

Edited March 1, 2025 by Teancum

[Teancum]

58 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You make it sound like he was Kenneth Copeland. 😂

Allowances are made in scripture for leaders to be compensated for their time. Also, if Joseph was living high on the hog from members' money- why was he contracting debts which Emma inherited after his murder?

So... The dance off is on!!

Meh.  He was still a con man. 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

William Law?? 😄

'Nuff said.

Doctrine and Covenants 122:3

  "And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors."

I always thought William was the devil. That was the false narrative the church taught me. But exploring it further I found he was the hero. Heck, Joseph hit on William's wife. Wanted her to marry him. I don't blame William on bit. I would have wanted to fight Joseph for something like that.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Injeun said:

I've often lamented not being born and raised LDS. Many who are, don't realize the pricelessness of what they have.

I would agree with the pricelessness of our faith, though I disagree with how you evaluate other faiths as I find a lot of truths and insight in them, often helping me appreciate my own more, such as intentional creation of sacred space (LDS talk of having our homes like temples and putting up artwork or wearing jewelry and other things that remind us of our faith, but I believe in some ways we could benefit from observing how others do it, for example having the hours of a day and calendar divided up with different spiritual focuses through a liturgical daily and yearly calendar could be adapted to bring a more active recognition of God’s hand in our life, imo).

I know this is nosy, but you are an unusual poster and I am a terminally curious person, so I am wondering what sources you have used to study the Gospel that have led to your unusual language (not saying your use of more theological terms is incorrect, just unusual in our day and age, you won’t find many Saints talking about their faith with the terms you use…I think the majority of Saints would have to look up “interposition of God” for example).

I dissect people’s language a lot as a hobby, imagining what they have been exposed to over the years.  For example, there are phrases that come and go in popularity among Saints so sometimes I will guess someone is older if they use a once popular phrase or idea.   If someone had never heard of Johnny Lingo, it would be a hint they were a convert, especially if older (I need to ask my grandkids if “8 cow woman” is still a thing).

I will offer a bit of my own background in hopes of making my question less awkward, feel free to skip if not interested, but I would still greatly appreciate you sharing your own choices on how you have educated yourself about the gospel.

I grew up discussing our faith in depth with my mother who was fascinated with finding traces of gospel truth in others’ writings, including psychology and mythology.  She read Jung and Emmanuel Swedenborg to me when I was 9 or 10.  On my own I tried to read every book I could find on any ancient faith.  Modern ones didn’t interest me too much until I was much older, perhaps because of the emphasis in our faith on restoration and the teaching that Adam and Eve taught their children the Gospel, which then would have spread throughout the world, even though not often in the original form, truths hidden as faith was lost through apostasy.

Ritual and symbolism fascinate me. Old Testament has always been my favorite scripture, mainly because of Genesis.  So when I use words like “myth” and “ritual” or “rite” it is meant in a more academic sense.  Myth does not mean “lie” or a made up story in my vocabulary, but a narrative, at times using actual events and people, used to explain the world by a community.  

As far as modern faiths, I have studied Catholicism because of good friends who were devout Catholics and have also interacted with a number of nonLDS Christians on this board and another before it (I could never find someone who was interested in really discussing religion off line outside my family so the internet has been a real blessing in my life), so I tend to try and be more careful in recognizing how LDS usage of certain terms, like salvation and damnation, can be unique to our belief and therefore I am careful in how I use them usually, especially damnation, when in faith discussions.

Edited March 2, 2025 by Calm

[manol]

2 hours ago, Injeun said:

Then I must  conclude that you never had a personal testimony. You just went along to get along, pretending, parroting and repeating what others said. Eventually your con ran its course and perished under the adversary's barrage. And to deal with it, you blamed the Church for your own deceit. Now you must push away, deny and disbelieve everything that might bring you back to that sad point which is too great to face....that of your crisis and departure. You didn't leave the Church. You left your own scam, and the Church holding your bag. Now you turn around and accuse the Church of your own scam. It is really quite devious and spiteful. There are a lot of people like you, victims of their own shortcuts. It is selfish and immature, and witness to the adversary's sophistry. The GA's are constantly exhorting members to seek and find personal witness that God lives and the Church is his, to attempt to prevent the very thing you have brought about. The Church doesn't teach us to fool ourselves and others. That is your own concoction. And it is a lie.

Is it possible for you to be true to your religion without being in judgment of others? 

I think it is. 

I used to be LDS too, and was never taught to use my religion or my testimony to belittle anyone.   When the missionaries taught you, did they belittle others who held different beliefs from what they were teaching?

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind".   @Teancum is a different kind of fish from you and a different kind of fish from me, but I do not think it is either your job or mine to pass judgment on him.

Edited March 2, 2025 by manol

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Frank11 said:

Through William Law, we at least have a natural and realistic explanation for Joseph Smith's possessions:

- Joseph Smith Homestead: His first home in Nauvoo, where he lived with his family.

- Mansion House: A larger residence he later moved into, which also served as an inn.

- Nauvoo House (unfinished): A large hotel he planned to build to accommodate visitors to the city.

- Red Brick Store: A key location for business and church affairs, where he founded the Relief Society and received important revelations.

- Printing Office: Smith owned a printing press where church publications, such as Times and Seasons, were produced.

- Various lots in and around Nauvoo: Smith acquired and managed numerous properties to help develop the city as a refuge for the Mormons.

A homestead (was he supposed to live in a tent forever?) and businesses that would have turned a profit and allowed him to stop receiving compensation from Church funds.

Try harder.

 

[Peacefully]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  Smith was not as bad a Trump.  Happy now?😃

It just hit me the wrong way. I just want to say I prefer your honesty to the self-righteousness of some others on the board. 

[Frank11]

39 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A homestead (was he supposed to live in a tent forever?) and businesses that would have turned a profit and allowed him to stop receiving compensation from Church funds.

Try harder.

Why harder, from how many manision houses, stores and lots does wealth begin for you in Nauvoo then or are you comparing his wealth to Queen Victoria's.

In addition, the church's assets were not yet separated from his assets. So he had enough money at his disposal.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I always thought William was the devil. That was the false narrative the church taught me. But exploring it further I found he was the hero. Heck, Joseph hit on William's wife. Wanted her to marry him. I don't blame William on bit. I would have wanted to fight Joseph for something like that.

CFR

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

hy harder, from how many manision houses, stores and lots does wealth begin for you in Nauvoo then or are you comparing his wealth to Queen Victoria's

That would depend on how much debt he incurred because of them, both in building and operating.

My memory is Emma held dances and dinners in order to earn money for the family to live off of at least in part because Joseph wasn’t willing to withhold goods from those who couldn’t pay.  And that Joseph held a lot of property on behalf of of the Church.

Also he wasn’t a great businessman.  Nor does it seem choices church leaders made in concert with Joseph very wise when it came to money.  
 

The time period didn’t help either.  Joseph wasn’t the only one declaring bankruptcy.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/settlement-of-joseph-smiths-estate?lang=eng

I am not particularly interested in my own finances, so really not interested in anyone else’s, but some might find this interesting:

Edited March 2, 2025 by Calm

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Injeun said:

Yes I do know for myself that God is real, that he lives, and is divine. That's why I say it. Would you have me lie? One would have to know all there is to know to say there is no God in the mix. But to know all things would make one God. Are you God? On the other hand, to know and say that God lives, one would only have to know that one thing, by the will and interposition of God. I know my place.

So many logical fallacies.

[ZealouslyStriving]

"At some point, William became sick and finally confessed his adultery to Hyrum, admitting to his friend that he did not feel worthy to live or die. Yet he wanted to be sealed for eternity to Jane, and he asked Joseph if that were possible. Joseph took the question to the Lord, and the Lord revealed that William could not receive the ordinance because he was adulterous. Now William’s heart began to burn with anger against Joseph. In late December, he and Jane stopped meeting with the endowed Saints. Jane advised that they sell their property quietly and simply leave Nauvoo. But William wanted to crush Joseph. He began plotting secretly with others who opposed the prophet, and not long after, he lost his place in the First Presidency."

42 Round Up Your Shoulders

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-v1/42-round-up-your-shoulders?lang=eng

** This is the other side of the story. **

[Frank11]

 

38 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

At some point, William became sick and finally confessed his adultery to Hyrum, admitting to his friend that he did not feel worthy to live or die.

1. I know the accusation against William Law, but when should Law tell Hyrum of all people about it. If you read the interview with William Law, they rather hated each other and after the introduction of polygamy, the relationship with the Smith brothers and William Law was destroyed.

 Law: "But Hyrum hated me for another reason. It was because I opposed him in the dirty political trade he made with Hoge against Walker. ...."

 

2. On the subject of wife swapping, Law exonerates Joseph Smith in a letter:

On page 108 you speak of “swapping wives,” and state that you have it from one who knows. Now let me say to you that I never heard of it till I read it in your book. Your informant must have been deceived or willfully lied to you. Joseph Smith never proposed anything of the kind to me or to my wife; both he and Emma knew our sentiments in relation to spiritual wives and polygamy; knew that we were immoveably [sic] opposed to polygamy in any and every form; that we were so subsequent events proved. The story may have grown out of the fact that Joseph offered to furnish his wife, Emma, with a substitute for him, by way of compensation for his neglect of her, on condition that she would forever stop her opposition to polygamy and permit him to enjoy his young wives in peace and keep some of them in her house and to be well treated, etc.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, Frank11 said:

 

1. I know the accusation against William Law, but when should Law tell Hyrum of all people about it. If you read the interview with William Law, they rather hated each other and after the introduction of polygamy, the relationship with the Smith brothers and William Law was destroyed.

 Law: "But Hyrum hated me for another reason. It was because I opposed him in the dirty political trade he made with Hoge against Walker. ...."

 

2. On the subject of wife swapping, Law exonerates Joseph Smith in a letter:

On page 108 you speak of “swapping wives,” and state that you have it from one who knows. Now let me say to you that I never heard of it till I read it in your book. Your informant must have been deceived or willfully lied to you. Joseph Smith never proposed anything of the kind to me or to my wife; both he and Emma knew our sentiments in relation to spiritual wives and polygamy; knew that we were immoveably [sic] opposed to polygamy in any and every form; that we were so subsequent events proved. The story may have grown out of the fact that Joseph offered to furnish his wife, Emma, with a substitute for him, by way of compensation for his neglect of her, on condition that she would forever stop her opposition to polygamy and permit him to enjoy his young wives in peace and keep some of them in her house and to be well treated, etc.

So there are two sides. You've chosen to believe Law and I've chosen to believe Joseph. 

Fin.

[Frank11]

6 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So there are two sides. You've chosen to believe Law and I've chosen to believe Joseph. 

Fin.

Joseph only heard it from Hyrum.

I opt for the one who enjoyed a blameless reputation before and after Mormonism.

[Injeun]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

 

Well you would be wrong. You are just like the evangelical Christian who says about the disaffected born again Christian..."Well they were never really saved."  This type of thinking is disgusting and arrogantly pious. 

And why won't you answer my questions?  Define what "to know" means when used in your testimony.  And why are you right in you testimony and others in different faith that you reject wrong in theirs.  Answer the question. Maybe you have never considered this seriously and your testimony is not all that grand and strong. You seem unable to deal with someone who says they believe but is more nuanced.

Oh sure. I just pretended while I served a mission and converted 50 people in a tough mission to gain converts. I just pretended while I married in the temple and for 52 years of my life was as devoted and any Latter-day Saint I have ever met.  I just gave hundreds of thousands of $ in tithes and offerings while just pretending. I pretended while serving as a EQ councilor and president, HP group leader, ward mission leader, YM President, bishopric councilor and bishop for about 6 year and so on. Sure it was all pretend. And all the thousand hours I spent as an apologist, it was all pretend.  Sure you bet. 

Good lord what a pious arrogant person you seem to be.

 

No it ran its course and I found out it was all a fraud and lie and it was devastating. Still is in some ways.

I think you are likely projecting and your testimony it really fragile weak and simple and you just cannot bear the thought that honest active members who gave their whole lives to the church are leaving because they have determined the church is not what it claims. So you have to disparage, insult, marginalize and demonize them. All in order to keep your precious weak kneed testimony intact.  If you really are an LDS believer, and I am suspecting you are troll, you are a pathetic example of what it means to be a Latter day Saint.

When I say I know that God lives, I mean that when he sent his spirit to know me in my heart, body, mind and soul and awaken me to a remembrance of him, then I know him by his having known me. And I realized that my true life is in his spirit, rather than in myself or my life alone. I was in a sense, reborn.

As for your testimony, if you ever had one, that God lives and the Church is his true Church. Where did your testimony go? When did God cease to live, and the Church cease to be his Church, if you ever had a testimony that God lives and the Church is his true Church.

Edited March 2, 2025 by Injeun

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

Law exonerates Joseph Smith in a letter:

Odd to use “exonerates” given what Law does saddle Joseph with.

It like saying someone exonerates another of bank robbing because they claim the other got the money from embezzlement.

[Injeun]

3 hours ago, manol said:

Is it possible for you to be true to your religion without being in judgment of others? 

I think it is. 

I used to be LDS too, and was never taught to use my religion or my testimony to belittle anyone.   When the missionaries taught you, did they belittle others who held different beliefs from what they were teaching?

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind".   @Teancum is a different kind of fish from you and a different kind of fish from me, but I do not think it is either your job or mine to pass judgment on him.

"Of every kind." But not every one of every kind.

"The way to life is narrow, And few enter in"

Then there are the ten virgins. Five were left out because the Groom didn't know them.

In the day of judgment, many would come to Jesus speaking of all they did in his name. He said they were workers of iniquity and that he never knew them. There is a difference between knowing  about God and actually knowing him and he you.

[Frank11]

On 3/1/2025 at 6:19 PM, Calm said:

That would depend on how much debt he incurred because of them, both in building and operating.

Technically, this would be true if he always repaid his debts from his own resources. But the decisive factor is actually what he spends and how he uses the money.

I found this list quite interesting, but have not checked its accuracy 

 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Frank11 said:

 

1. I know the accusation against William Law, but when should Law tell Hyrum of all people about it. If you read the interview with William Law, they rather hated each other and after the introduction of polygamy, the relationship with the Smith brothers and William Law was destroyed.

 Law: "But Hyrum hated me for another reason. It was because I opposed him in the dirty political trade he made with Hoge against Walker. ...."

 

2. On the subject of wife swapping, Law exonerates Joseph Smith in a letter:

On page 108 you speak of “swapping wives,” and state that you have it from one who knows. Now let me say to you that I never heard of it till I read it in your book. Your informant must have been deceived or willfully lied to you. Joseph Smith never proposed anything of the kind to me or to my wife; both he and Emma knew our sentiments in relation to spiritual wives and polygamy; knew that we were immoveably [sic] opposed to polygamy in any and every form; that we were so subsequent events proved. The story may have grown out of the fact that Joseph offered to furnish his wife, Emma, with a substitute for him, by way of compensation for his neglect of her, on condition that she would forever stop her opposition to polygamy and permit him to enjoy his young wives in peace and keep some of them in her house and to be well treated, etc.

Could you link to the letters and interviews when you quote them?  I can find them doing online searches but a link would be much easier.  Thanks.

[Frank11]

1 minute ago, webbles said:

Could you link to the letters and interviews when you quote them?  I can find them doing online searches but a link would be much easier.  Thanks.

https://mrm.org/law-interview

https://william-law.org/publications/the-mormons-in-nauvoo-three-letters-from-william-law-on-mormonism-an-honest-mans-view-and-remorse-the-daily-tribune-salt-lake-city-3-july-1887/