Trib article about the church's recent changes of it's polygamy cartoons for Primary children.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, blackstrap said:

If we are dealing in versions, which version of the gospel should be considered as definitive ?

The parts that actually came from God 😉.

If we try to go by Church teachings we just need to wait a few years for them to change yet again.

[ZealouslyStriving]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Joseph had periods of great poverty and great wealth.

Like Paul he could have said:

Phil 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. 12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

When did he have great wealth? When he died he left Emma with major debt- and Nauvoo was arguably his wealthiest season.

[Injeun]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I am curious as to what you have studied besides LDS writings.  Not criticizing it, just wondering about your background.

I was born and raised in a non religious home. Before my conversion at age 26, life was my religion. I don't have an extended education.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Injeun said:

I was born and raised in a non religious home. Before my conversion at age 26, life was my religion. I don't have an extended education.

I am impressed.  Have you done a lot of reading?  Your religious vocabulary is not typical LDS.

Edited March 1, 2025 by Calm

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, Injeun said:

Then your loyalties are divided, and I am reconciled to the truth.

You don't know whether there is a god and who or what that god may be anymore than anyone  else.

[Injeun]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

I am impressed.  Have you done a lot of reading?  Your religious vocabulary is not typical LDS.

Thanks, I'm flattered. I've often lamented not being born and raised LDS. Many who are, don't realize the pricelessness of what they have. Then again, had I not been raised outside the Church, I couldn't note or appreciate so well the difference. So if those born in the Church are counseled by the GA's to gain a spiritual testimony to validate their heritage, then they should do so. Don't be ashamed to be LDS and then go on to mock it before the world which has nothing to offer in return but an attaboy for betrayal. They(the world) don't love you. 

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

I'm not like you were.

Ummm ok.

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

I'm not a creature of dogma.

Well you seem fairly dogmatic so excuse me if I am not buying it.

 

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

 

I converted to the Church, sight unseen so to speak, from a strictly secular life.

Ok.  That does not make you special nor your so called testimony any more valid or invalid than anyone else.

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

 

I chose to do so according to the interposition of Gods spirit, who awakened me to a remembrance of him, to know he is real, that he lives and is divine. By his knowledge of me, I know that my true life is in him or in his spirit rather than in myself or in my life alone.

Ok. So?

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

 

His spirit also showed me in vision that the LDS Missionaries are his servants.

Cal me skeptical.

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

Consequently, I know the Church is true.

No. You do not KNOW at least the way most people think when they hear someone say they no.  You may have really strong faith. You may have had personal internal to you only experiences that bolster your faith and belief.  But you really do not know nor does anyone.  It would be nice if Mormonism would move past the I know this, that and some other thing approach to testimony bearing. It is silly and does not represent what someone is really saying about their beliefs.

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

 

And every fault levied against it is utterly meaningless to me or to my testimony, rolling off my back like the sea off a breaching whale.

Good for you. I think the criticisms against the church claims stand up pretty well. But if it works for you and makes you happy terrific. There is still much I miss about such things.

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

 

The existence of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is a revelation and a miracle, showing forth the arm of God. And by and by the world will awaken to it,  like the scriptural thief who comes in the night, made dark by a drunken and unbelieving world.

Yada yada yada.  Ok. How is that all going for you and the church. The numbers don't bear you out. But maybe the incredible wealth the church has amassed does if one measures success by that barometer.

15 hours ago, Injeun said:

I know you aren't here to bolster the weak, but to  undermine the truth at every turn by the same spirit that made wormwood of your former upbringing. It gives me no joy to say it.  

Nah you really do not know why I am here.  And if you are like what I see in your posting in real life then it gives me no joy to see it.

[Injeun]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

You don't know whether there is a god and who or what that god may be anymore than anyone  else.

Yes I do know for myself that God is real, that he lives, and is divine. That's why I say it. Would you have me lie? One would have to know all there is to know to say there is no God in the mix. But to know all things would make one God. Are you God? On the other hand, to know and say that God lives, one would only have to know that one thing, by the will and interposition of God. I know my place.

Actually, everyone knows God. They have just forgotten him. That's why I said that his spirit awakened me to a remembrance of him, to know that my true life is in him, rather than in myself or in my life alone. Isaiah approached this circumstance when he said, "All we, like sheep have gone astray, we  have turned every one to his own way. And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Iniquity brings forgetfulness.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Did you really have to go there? Whatever you may think of Joseph Smith, I believe he did a lot of good and he sincerely cared about people. It’s doubtful Trump has ever done anything for anyone unless it benefitted him. 

Ok.  Smith was not as bad a Trump.  Happy now?😃

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, Rain said:

I did too. I thought it odd he would say "our" when he doesn't believe,  but then I find myself doing that sometimes.  Then I was trying to see that description in Nelson and don't see it.  Finally, I realized who he meant!

Sorry for the confusion.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

<Insert testimony of Joseph Smith and the Restored Gospel>

Huh?

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Joseph Smith was wealthy?

Did I say he was?

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think being tall is about the only thing those two have in common.

Nah.  Both were/are con men. 

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You are.

No. You are wrong. See two can play that game. How fun.

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I guess if you reject God the command to love your enemies no longer applies. (Not saying we always do a great job at following it.)

Not trying to be political but there are some people that one ought not to love. And I the New Testament is not binding on me whatsoever so there is that. But I think there is a lot of good ideas that can be useful from the New Testament.

[Teancum]

36 minutes ago, Injeun said:

Yes I do know for myself that God is real, that he lives, and is divine. That's why I say it.

Define know then.  I  asked you this once already.

 

36 minutes ago, Injeun said:

 

Would you have me lie?

Honestly, I think the was Latter-day Saints use "I know" when it comes to their testimony building is a lie. Because you and others DO NOT know they way almost all humans hear and interpret what you are saying when they here you. I am trying to get you to be honest. I won't hold my breath.

 

36 minutes ago, Injeun said:

One would have to know all there is to know to say there is no God in the mix. But to know all things would make one God.

I do not say there is no god. Unfortunately I doubt it and I see little evidence for a god, well, at least for the god of theistic religions.  But I do not KNOW There is no god or if there is one.  Nor do you. Nor does anyone.

 

36 minutes ago, Injeun said:

Are you God?

Your logic it torturous to follow. No I am not god and I don't pretend  to know whether or not  there is a god.

 

36 minutes ago, Injeun said:

 

On the other hand, to know and say that God lives, one would only have to know that one thing, by the will and interposition of God. I know my place.

Saying it does not make it so.  I used to feel the same about Santa Claus.

 

36 minutes ago, Injeun said:

Actually, everyone knows God. They have just forgotten him. That's why I said that his spirit awakened me to a remembrance of him, to know that my true life is in him, rather than in myself or in my life alone. Isaiah approached this circumstance when he said, "All we, like sheep have gone astray, we  have turned every one to his own way. And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Iniquity brings forgetfulness.

Again which god?  Islam's god? Catholic's god? Evangelical Christian's god?  

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Huh?

It is disallowed here to bear positive testimony in the face of negative testimony, so it's the best I could do.

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Did I say he was?

Yes...

"Alpha males to the max they conned their way though life and built their success and wealth be bilking others."

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Nah.  Both were/are con men. 

No. You are wrong. See two can play that game. How fun.

🕺🏻Dance off! 🕺🏻

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Not trying to be political but there are some people that one ought not to love. And I the New Testament is not binding on me whatsoever so there is that.

That was my point.

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But I think there is a lot of good ideas that can be useful from the New Testament.

"A lot" you say? Don't give in now! 😉

Edited March 1, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[Teancum]

28 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

It is disallowed here to bear positive testimony in the face of negative testimony, so it's the best I could do.

It is?  News to me.

28 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Yes...

"Alpha males to the max they conned their way though life and built their success and wealth be bilking others."

Ah ok. Well Smith was not as wealthy as the other guy of course. But he made his living off his religion did he not? 

28 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

🕺🏻Dance off! 🕺🏻

That was my point.

"A lot" you say? Don't give in now! 😉

hmm. Alrighty then.....😁

[Injeun]

18 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Define know then.  I  asked you this once already.

 

Honestly, I think the was Latter-day Saints use "I know" when it comes to their testimony building is a lie. Because you and others DO NOT know they way almost all humans hear and interpret what you are saying when they here you. I am trying to get you to be honest. I won't hold my breath.

 

I do not say there is no god. Unfortunately I doubt it and I see little evidence for a god, well, at least for the god of theistic religions.  But I do not KNOW There is no god or if there is one.  Nor do you. Nor does anyone.

 

Your logic it torturous to follow. No I am not god and I don't pretend  to know whether or not  there is a god.

 

Saying it does not make it so.  I used to feel the same about Santa Claus.

 

Again which god?  Islam's god? Catholic's god? Evangelical Christian's god?  

I don't know what is more frustrating, to want to be told the truth, only to be lied to. Or to want to be lied to, only to be told the truth. When I say that God sent his messenger his spirit to testify of his existence and that the LDS Church is his. It isn't that I say that visitors from a dead planet have told me that elephants fly. My testimony is grounded in truth. The Church exists, and countless people have testified for thousands of years that God lives. I add my testimony to theirs. What I tell you comes from God. And if you can't distinguish between the truth and flying elephants, that's on you.

[Frank11]

17 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Joseph Smith was wealthy?

 

To the question “What kind of a life did the prophet lead in Nauvoo?” in an interview, William Law gave the following response:

“Joseph lived in great plenty. He entertained his friends and had a right good time. He was a jolly fellow. I don t think that in his family tea and coffee were used, but they were served to the strangers when he entertained as tavern-keeper. At least, I suppose so. The Smiths had plenty of money. Why, when I came to Nauvoo I paid Hyrum $700 in gold for a barren lot and at that rate they sold any amount of lots after having got the land very cheap, to be sure Their principle was to weaken a man in his purse, and in this way take power and influence from him. Weaken everybody, that was their motto. Joseph’s maxim was, when you have taken all the money a fellow has got, you can do with him whatever you please.”

Actually sounds a bit like Trump.

[Injeun]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Ummm ok.

Well you seem fairly dogmatic so excuse me if I am not buying it.

 

Ok.  That does not make you special nor your so called testimony any more valid or invalid than anyone else.

Ok. So?

Cal me skeptical.

No. You do not KNOW at least the way most people think when they hear someone say they no.  You may have really strong faith. You may have had personal internal to you only experiences that bolster your faith and belief.  But you really do not know nor does anyone.  It would be nice if Mormonism would move past the I know this, that and some other thing approach to testimony bearing. It is silly and does not represent what someone is really saying about their beliefs.

Good for you. I think the criticisms against the church claims stand up pretty well. But if it works for you and makes you happy terrific. There is still much I miss about such things.

Yada yada yada.  Ok. How is that all going for you and the church. The numbers don't bear you out. But maybe the incredible wealth the church has amassed does if one measures success by that barometer.

Nah you really do not know why I am here.  And if you are like what I see in your posting in real life then it gives me no joy to see it.

I have told you the truth and what I know, not what I have heard, read, believed, concluded, imagined or surmised. I am a man, not a parrot or monkey. 

[Teancum]

50 minutes ago, Injeun said:

I don't know what is more frustrating, to want to be told the truth, only to be lied to. Or to want to be lied to, only to be told the truth. When I say that God sent his messenger his spirit to testify of his existence and that the LDS Church is his. It isn't that I say that visitors from a dead planet have told me that elephants fly. My testimony is grounded in truth. The Church exists, and countless people have testified for thousands of years that God lives. I add my testimony to theirs. What I tell you comes from God. And if you can't distinguish between the truth and flying elephants, that's on you.

And hundreds of millions of other adherents make similar witness with their testimony of their dearly held religious claims.  They with the same fervor bear witness to things that are definitely mutually exclusive. So who is right? This is why it is good to reject such claims with skepticism.  And see, I do have ways to try to distinguish between truth and flying elephants, whatever that means and you are failing the methodology one should apply. But carry on. And as a former LDS believer I and intimately aware with the process of gaining a testimony. And it is faulty, flawed and the emotionally manipulative. And I have used those methods on others when I was a believer.

[Teancum]

15 minutes ago, Injeun said:

I have told you the truth and what I know, not what I have heard, read, believed, concluded, imagined or surmised. I am a man, not a parrot or monkey. 

Well you sound like a parrot with what you write. Simply saying the same thing over and over is not compelling at all.

[Injeun]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Define know then.  I  asked you this once already.

 

Honestly, I think the was Latter-day Saints use "I know" when it comes to their testimony building is a lie. Because you and others DO NOT know they way almost all humans hear and interpret what you are saying when they here you. I am trying to get you to be honest. I won't hold my breath.

 

I do not say there is no god. Unfortunately I doubt it and I see little evidence for a god, well, at least for the god of theistic religions.  But I do not KNOW There is no god or if there is one.  Nor do you. Nor does anyone.

 

Your logic it torturous to follow. No I am not god and I don't pretend  to know whether or not  there is a god.

 

Saying it does not make it so.  I used to feel the same about Santa Claus.

 

Again which god?  Islam's god? Catholic's god? Evangelical Christian's god?  

There is only one true God. The multitudes of counterfeits notwithstanding.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Frank11 said:

 

To the question “What kind of a life did the prophet lead in Nauvoo?” in an interview, William Law gave the following response:

“Joseph lived in great plenty. He entertained his friends and had a right good time. He was a jolly fellow. I don t think that in his family tea and coffee were used, but they were served to the strangers when he entertained as tavern-keeper. At least, I suppose so. The Smiths had plenty of money. Why, when I came to Nauvoo I paid Hyrum $700 in gold for a barren lot and at that rate they sold any amount of lots after having got the land very cheap, to be sure Their principle was to weaken a man in his purse, and in this way take power and influence from him. Weaken everybody, that was their motto. Joseph’s maxim was, when you have taken all the money a fellow has got, you can do with him whatever you please.”

Actually sounds a bit like Trump.

William Law?? 😄

'Nuff said.

Doctrine and Covenants 122:3

  "And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors."

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is?  News to me.

Ah ok. Well Smith was not as wealthy as the other guy of course. But he made his living off his religion did he not? 

You make it sound like he was Kenneth Copeland. 😂

Allowances are made in scripture for leaders to be compensated for their time. Also, if Joseph was living high on the hog from members' money- why was he contracting debts which Emma inherited after his murder?

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

hmm. Alrighty then.....😁

So... The dance off is on!!

[Injeun]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

And hundreds of millions of other adherents make similar witness with their testimony of their dearly held religious claims.  They with the same fervor bear witness to things that are definitely mutually exclusive. So who is right? This is why it is good to reject such claims with skepticism.  And see, I do have ways to try to distinguish between truth and flying elephants, whatever that means and you are failing the methodology one should apply. But carry on. And as a former LDS believer I and intimately aware with the process of gaining a testimony. And it is faulty, flawed and the emotionally manipulative. And I have used those methods on others when I was a believer.

Then I must  conclude that you never had a personal testimony. You just went along to get along, pretending, parroting and repeating what others said. Eventually your con ran its course and perished under the adversary's barrage. And to deal with it, you blamed the Church for your own deceit. Now you must push away, deny and disbelieve everything that might bring you back to that sad point which is too great to face....that of your crisis and departure. You didn't leave the Church. You left your own scam, and the Church holding your bag. Now you turn around and accuse the Church of your own scam. It is really quite devious and spiteful. There are a lot of people like you, victims of their own shortcuts. It is selfish and immature, and witness to the adversary's sophistry. The GA's are constantly exhorting members to seek and find personal witness that God lives and the Church is his, to attempt to prevent the very thing you have brought about. The Church doesn't teach us to fool ourselves and others. That is your own concoction. And it is a lie.

[Injeun]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well you sound like a parrot with what you write. Simply saying the same thing over and over is not compelling at all.

That isn't true either. You are on a roll.

[Frank11]

44 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

William Law?? 😄

'Nuff said.

Doctrine and Covenants 122:3

  "And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors."

Through William Law, we at least have a natural and realistic explanation for Joseph Smith's possessions:

- Joseph Smith Homestead: His first home in Nauvoo, where he lived with his family.

- Mansion House: A larger residence he later moved into, which also served as an inn.

- Nauvoo House (unfinished): A large hotel he planned to build to accommodate visitors to the city.

- Red Brick Store: A key location for business and church affairs, where he founded the Relief Society and received important revelations.

- Printing Office: Smith owned a printing press where church publications, such as Times and Seasons, were produced.

- Various lots in and around Nauvoo: Smith acquired and managed numerous properties to help develop the city as a refuge for the Mormons.