Teach children about plural marriage?

[JAHS]

I noticed that there is a section of the Church D&C Storybook for children that attempts to inform children about the history of Plural marriage. 
Plural Marriage - Faith to obey a law from the Lord, even when it’s hard

I am guessing the purpose is to let children know about it now so they are not surprised about it later on?
Is this a good idea or harmful to teach them about it when they are so young?
 

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I noticed that there is a section of the Church D&C Storybook for children that attempts to inform children about the history of Plural marriage. 
Plural Marriage - Faith to obey a law from the Lord, even when it’s hard

I am guessing the purpose is to let children know about it now so they are not surprised about it later on?
Is this a good idea or harmful to teach them about it when they are so young?
 

I think polygamy is often used/exploited by critics of the Church (utually former Latter-day Saints) for its "shock value."  Ironically, these same critics are often totally on board with sex outside of marriage, using mind-altering substances, and so on.  Such folks want to at once feign the role of pearl-clutching moralists when it comes to polygamy, and then at the same time bragging up if-it-feels-good-do-it hedonism as to casual sex, booze, MJ, etc.  This FB statement from John Dehlin was . . . illuminating:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=398890294862383

A transcript:

Quote

Hey, Ex-Mormons!  What's one criticism you have of the Ex-Mormon community?  I'll go first.  Margi and I can't attend an Ex-Mormon social event without at least one person, and often several, asking us why we aren't drinking alcohol, or why we haven't tried alcohol or drugs yet.  Occasionally, we even hear about parties or get-togethers that we aren't invited to specifically because don't drink or do drugs yet.  I've hung around Never-Mormons long enough to know that this is not normal behavior.  In the Never-Mormon world, it would be super strange and offensive to ask someone why they aren't drinking, or why they choose not to drink or do drugs.  It honestly shouldn't matter.  At all.  Please just don't ask.  And honestly, try not to notice, or even care.  And to exclude someone from a get-together because they don't partake, that just feels awful.  Margi and I can have and be just as much fun as you.  I promise.  Have you ever seen Margi and and me karaoke?  I rest my case.  

Boy, the "Ex-Mormon community" sure sounds . . . not pleasant.

Anyhoo, polygamy is part of our doctrine and our history.  I think we need to teach it in context.  For that matter, i think we also need to teach about animal sacrifice, as that too can be difficult for modern kids to grasp.  We should also teach about and caution against presentism.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

I think it's best taught while they are still young.  I would say no older than early pre-teens at least.

[Dario_M]

I find it harmfull. Why do children need to know all that stuff allready at such a young age? Let a child be a child. 

[blackstrap]

Mature minds often have difficulty with the doctrine and behaviors regarding polygamy. What age group are these current lessons aimed at ? 

[JAHS]

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think polygamy is often used/exploited by critics of the Church (utually former Latter-day Saints) for its "shock value."  Ironically, these same critics are often totally on board with sex outside of marriage, using mind-altering substances, and so on.  Such folks want to at once feign the role of pearl-clutching moralists when it comes to polygamy, and then at the same time bragging up if-it-feels-good-do-it hedonism as to casual sex, booze, MJ, etc.  This FB statement from John Dehlin was . . . illuminating:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=398890294862383

A transcript:

Boy, the "Ex-Mormon community" sure sounds . . . not pleasant.

Anyhoo, polygamy is part of our doctrine and our history.  I think we need to teach it in context.  For that matter, i think we also need to teach about animal sacrifice, as that too can be difficult for modern kids to grasp.  We should also teach about and caution against presentism.

Thanks,

-Smac

John Dehlin just did a podcast called

Mormon Church Now Teaching Polygamy to Children: Is it Grooming? | Ep. 1974

I wouldn't call in grooming; just teaching history. But of course "grooming" is a better shock word to get attention.

[Danzo]

57 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I noticed that there is a section of the Church D&C Storybook for children that attempts to inform children about the history of Plural marriage. 
Plural Marriage - Faith to obey a law from the Lord, even when it’s hard

I am guessing the purpose is to let children know about it now so they are not surprised about it later on?
Is this a good idea or harmful to teach them about it when they are so young?
 

I was taught about plural marriage as a child, and I taught my children about plural marriages.

[webbles]

I've taught my kids about it.  It is kind of required when we discuss our family history.  Some of my kids also know about the young wives (one of my ancestor's sister was married at 14 to a 60 year old as his second wife).

I don't see any problem discussing polygamy with kids.

[Senator]

52 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I wouldn't call in grooming

Indoctrination?

[ZealouslyStriving]

If we don't teach it, we're hiding things- if we do we're grooming.

Nothing the Church does will please those opposed to it- we should stop taking their opinions into consideration and wringing our hands over what they think.

Edited December 17, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[MrShorty]

The "problems" I see with it are the omissions (like failing to mention second and third manifestos). Of course, decisions around exactly what to share with children will depend on age and maturity and such.

I think what I would like to see is a series of these kinds of presentations with varying levels of detail and nuance. Something to introduce multiple manifestos. Another something to wrestle with Emma's objections and Joseph's decisions to marry people without telling her. And so on. Perhaps a series of "essays" between this one and the full Gospel Topics Essay that introduces children and youth (and adults) to different challenging aspects of the topic.

[JAHS]

21 minutes ago, Senator said:

Indoctrination?

Indoctrination sounds too much like accepting teachings without allowing questioning. The history of the Church is what it is, so it would just be teaching history of plural marriage.
Apparently it is what God wanted church members to do at the time it was practiced. 

[Danzo]

35 minutes ago, Senator said:

Indoctrination?

how about teaching.

That is how we usually refer to explaining something new to someone who doesn't know something. 

[Danzo]

53 minutes ago, webbles said:

I've taught my kids about it.  It is kind of required when we discuss our family history.  Some of my kids also know about the young wives (one of my ancestor's sister was married at 14 to a 60 year old as his second wife).

I don't see any problem discussing polygamy with kids.

Its also required for family scripture study. Both the old Testament,  Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants bring up the subject. 

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, Senator said:

Indoctrination?

If you attach a judgment to the teaching—that it is good or that it is bad—then that could be indoctrination.  Indoctrination is when you teach somebody something and you want them to accept your word on it without any critical thinking. If you teach them your opinion and then also teach them that they need to come to their own conclusions, that is not indoctrination.

If you’re just teaching that it happened, then that is called teaching history.

[Danzo]

12 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

The "problems" I see with it are the omissions (like failing to mention second and third manifestos). Of course, decisions around exactly what to share with children will depend on age and maturity and such.

I think what I would like to see is a series of these kinds of presentations with varying levels of detail and nuance. Something to introduce multiple manifestos. Another something to wrestle with Emma's objections and Joseph's decisions to marry people without telling her. And so on. Perhaps a series of "essays" between this one and the full Gospel Topics Essay that introduces children and youth (and adults) to different challenging aspects of the topic.

The problem with this argument is that teaching any subject involves omissions.  there is always more information than we have time/resources to present. (Although, I agree any serious discussion on the end of polygamy in the church should at least mention the Joseph F Smith's actions as well as policies in the church during that time period).  

However, I don't teach my children Calculus when they are learning Algebra (I have tried, but it can get a bit confusing)

[rpn]

Really?  We're talking about John Dehlin's take on parental teaching?   For him, he's just trying to stir up something and we here decide to join his bandwagon?

Yes the church is trying to make sure that no teen says when someone brings it up "NO we never did that" because they had no idea that yes we did do that (though how all Christians claim to be surprised even though there are multiple incidents of polygamy in the Bible and even commandment to marry your brother's widows, is beyond me).   Whether or not any specific family sees the children's story to be useful is another question.

[bsjkki]

This has popped up on my social media. Reading the story directed at children does not feel right to me. I struggle with the story book medium for this.  I would skip it for my own kids. Very hard concepts. I would discuss with my teens but not in a 'story' format. Many non-members reading that find it very unsettling and view it as 'grooming.' 

Adults struggle with past polygamy and it is a very serious topic. I have to shelve it because it was terrible for women and I have family stories that show how much it harmed some very brave women who crossed the plains and then were 'divorced' and the younger wife was chosen. These are first-hand accounts and had very poor outcomes. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by bsjkki

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

The "problems" I see with it are the omissions (like failing to mention second and third manifestos). Of course, decisions around exactly what to share with children will depend on age and maturity and such.

I think what I would like to see is a series of these kinds of presentations with varying levels of detail and nuance. Something to introduce multiple manifestos. Another something to wrestle with Emma's objections and Joseph's decisions to marry people without telling her. And so on. Perhaps a series of "essays" between this one and the full Gospel Topics Essay that introduces children and youth (and adults) to different challenging aspects of the topic.

A few years ago my sister's ward/stake had someone come and speak to the youth about the method of translating the BOM by Joseph Smith, that of putting his head in the hat. I was surprised but it was part of the inoculation plan I guess. 

[Senator]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Indoctrination sounds too much like accepting teachings without allowing questioning.

Ok

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

The history of the Church is what it is, so it would just be teaching history of plural marriage.

But this is not what the lesson is just doing. The intent is also to imbue doctrinal principles. Such as obedience to the Lord's commands through the prophet, regardless of the difficulty.

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Apparently it is what God wanted church members to do at the time it was practiced. 

Ha!  If only that sentence was included in the lesson.

[Senator]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 Indoctrination is when you teach somebody something and you want them to accept your word on it without any critical thinking. If you teach them your opinion and then also teach them that they need to come to their own conclusions, that is not indoctrination.

 

Do you think this lesson was an exercise for children to engage in critical thinking?   To come to their own conclusions?
I'm not trying to incriminate, but spur thought, and I appreciate your input.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

I noticed that there is a section of the Church D&C Storybook for children that attempts to inform children about the history of Plural marriage. 
Plural Marriage - Faith to obey a law from the Lord, even when it’s hard

I am guessing the purpose is to let children know about it now so they are not surprised about it later on?
Is this a good idea or harmful to teach them about it when they are so young?
 

I think it is a good idea to acclimate them to Church history and how to prioritize it with their living faith in Christ. As with family history, it is good to appreciate both your roots and how things move forward in the Lord.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

If we don't teach it, we're hiding things- if we do we're grooming.

Tell me again why we give 💩💩 what our haters think?

Maybe we shouldn’t have watered down the concept of grooming the way we have.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think polygamy is often used/exploited by critics of the Church (utually former Latter-day Saints) for its "shock value."  Ironically, these same critics are often totally on board with sex outside of marriage, using mind-altering substances, and so on.  Such folks want to at once feign the role of pearl-clutching moralists when it comes to polygamy, and then at the same time bragging up if-it-feels-good-do-it hedonism as to casual sex, booze, MJ, etc.  This FB statement from John Dehlin was . . . illuminating:

The difference is that they see religious polygamy as predatory and controlling and the other stuff you put down as equivalent as a matter of choice. If you were spiking someone’s drink with hallucinogenics or having predatory and manipulative sex outside of marriage many of those critics would consider it similar to religious polygamy.

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Boy, the "Ex-Mormon community" sure sounds . . . not pleasant.

That is the part that carried over from the “Mormon community” where it is also often...not pleasant.  It is just reversed. Drink a beer at a get together of Mormons (while you are a Mormon) and you will get even bigger pushback.

Lots of Never Mormons don’t drink or use recreational drugs. Many of them you would probably call hedonists.

Also…..MJ? Really?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JAHS said:

I noticed that there is a section of the Church D&C Storybook for children that attempts to inform children about the history of Plural marriage. 
Plural Marriage - Faith to obey a law from the Lord, even when it’s hard

I am guessing the purpose is to let children know about it now so they are not surprised about it later on?
Is this a good idea or harmful to teach them about it when they are so young?
 

I knew about it as a kid and it was no big deal because it was just family history (my grandmother had an “auntie”).  Since we got asked “how many wives does your dad have” a couple of times, it was a good thing we knew.

I think to teach I would use our family stories, if they live in Utah take them to the gravesites.  I don’t tend to be very fond of church stories for kids, but scripture stories are okay.  This seems to follow that style….but boy, does it leave stuff out in the ‘middle’ (covers mostly Nauvoo and the first try at ending it iirc) and makes it appear that even though it was hard it typically worked out fine for the families.  I would definitely supplement with first a brief summary of how some people messed it up just as happens today with monogamy and share some examples.  I might even include one story from my great great grandmother to show how easy it is to slip into an us vs them POV instead of loving our neighbours where she ranted some about how the snobby monogamist wives looked down on the polygamist wives as poor things while she saw the monogamist women were lazy homemakers who couldn’t even be bothered to sweep their front steps.

Edited December 17, 2024 by Calm