Do we live in the telestial kingdom now?

[GoCeltics]

What does this mean?  Will the Millennium be the newer telestial kingdom on earth for some time?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that 
is spelled with a t, not a c.

[Dario_M]

So agree. We are in a fallen world for sure. The world has become an unpleasent place to be in these days. With all the complex problems we are facing now. God forbid. 🌎

[Tacenda]

I don't mind it. I guess that's how far gone I am. But do see a lot of good in the world. At least it isn't hell. But hell in the LDS church is in the mind. For the things we realized we've done wrong. Or for those that don't accept Christ even after knowing He exists. But how do people know that unless they've had a visit?

[Stargazer]

37 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

What does this mean?  Will the Millennium be the newer telestial kingdom on earth for some time?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that 
is spelled with a t, not a c.

In the sense that we are separated from God and Christ, we are now in a telestial condition, or world. It's not a "kingdom," per se. 

In the Millennium we will be in a higher condition, that could perhaps be called a terrestrial condition, or world, during which Satan will be bound. Until the end of the thousand Years, when Satan will be set free for a short time.

The Telestial Kingdom as a kingdom of glory (see DC 76) is for resurrected beings who refused the grace of Jesus Christ and must suffer for their own sins. I realize that we differ from you about what "hell" is, but that's what "hell" is for us: a permanent and everlasting separation from God and Christ. You may find some LDS who believe that promotion from that state is possible over eons of time, but I'm not one of them.

[Stormin' Mormon]

Agree with Stargazer above.  We are currently in a telestial condition, and if we persist in that condition, we will be resurrected into a telestial glory or kingdom.  We do not currently reside in that glory, only in a condition that will qualify us for it.  

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

In the sense that we are separated from God and Christ, we are now in a telestial condition, or world. It's not a "kingdom," per se. 

In the Millennium we will be in a higher condition, that could perhaps be called a terrestrial condition, or world, during which Satan will be bound. Until the end of the thousand Years, when Satan will be set free for a short time.

The Telestial Kingdom as a kingdom of glory (see DC 76) is for resurrected beings who refused the grace of Jesus Christ and must suffer for their own sins. I realize that we differ from you about what "hell" is, but that's what "hell" is for us: a permanent and everlasting separation from God and Christ. You may find some LDS who believe that promotion from that state is possible over eons of time, but I'm not one of them.

Those inherit the Telestial Kingdom of glory will indeed have to suffer for their sins in the spirit prison (hell) prior to to obtaining a place in that lowest of the three kingdoms post-resurrection heavenly glory. But just because these individuals will suffer for their sins while in the spirit prison doesn’t mean that the suffering they endure will atone for their sins, for only the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Son of God can bring about a remission of sins. This is why all the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom of glory will first have to be washed in the atoning blood of Christ before can obtain the Telestial Kingdom of glory. This is why redemption through the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to those who are suffering for their sins in the dark regions of the spirit world…

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness (the spirit prison) and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead spirit prison. (D&C 138)

and…

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C 138)

This is why those souls who inherit the Telestial Kingdom of heavenly glory will eventually be required to confess unto God the Father that Jesus is the Christ

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

Our scriptures direct us to Philippians 2:9-11 in order to understand what this confessing unto God actually means.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

Edited November 8, 2024 by teddyaware

[manol]

I think this is a Telestial world.  The term "Telestial world" is used in the Doctrine & Covenants and elsewhere, maybe it is synonymous with "Telestial kingdom", maybe not.  But imo the description of the inhabitants of the Telestial world fits this one. 

There is a school of thought which holds that the "resurrection of damnation" (<- and that's a bad translation) is reincarnation back into this (Telestial) world. 

I think progression from a Telestial world to something higher is absolutely possible.  Imo if "progression" is "eternal", then the lower two kingdoms are just stages in our progression towards the highest.  And I understand this is not mainstream LDS belief.

But consider this:  Does it seem reasonable that God would hold such an eternal and unyielding grudge against his children for mistakes they made in mortality that even after they had progressed sufficiently he would never allow them back home?  Very few earthly parents hold that kind of grudge, so it is not something I would expect of a God who is love. 

Edited November 8, 2024 by manol

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Those inherit the Telestial Kingdom of glory will indeed have to suffer for their sins in the spirit prison (hell) prior to to obtaining a place in that lowest of the three kingdoms post-resurrection heavenly glory. But just because these individuals will suffer for their sins while in the spirit prison doesn’t mean that the suffering they endure will atone for their sins, for only the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Son of God can bring about a remission of sins.

I have the feeling that you're going to disagree with my response, but no problem, because your salvation doesn't rely upon agreeing with my understanding of the matter. Our whole duty is to keep the commandments, have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and be repentant for our sins. If we don't understand the minutiae of salvation now, we will do so eventually. And full understanding is probably beyond our capability in mortal life in any case. With that caveat, I respond...

Yes, Spirit Prison is an unpleasant place, and you're right that whatever suffering is experienced there is not part of the suffering for sin, or atonement. It couldn't even be physical, because without a body there is no true punishment. Whatever suffering there is in the Spirit Prison is merely unpleasant, and it is only in the spirit.

As for the suffering for sin that is the payment for sin, in the end those who do not accept Christ's atonement will not benefit from Christ's suffering, and so must endure the same punishment He endured. Their sins are not remitted, and they alone are responsible to suffer for them. But this cannot occur until after they have been resurrected. 

Consider D&C 19:15-18

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

Thus the Lord has suffered for all who would repent. But as for the unrepentant, the Lord did not suffer for them. But someone must suffer, and it is they who must do so. What is the nature of that suffering, and how must it be received?

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

The reason I say that that suffering must be the same that Jesus suffered, and that it must be received in the body, is because Jesus suffered in the body.  The Lord says "must suffer even as I." The unrepentant must suffer no less than Jesus suffered. Not one-tenth as much, not one-half, but even as much as He did. But an unresurrected being cannot suffer both body and spirit, or bleed at every pore, because he doesn't have a body to suffer in. Also, a person who is not immortal cannot endure that extreme degree of suffering and remain living, because that much pain and suffering would kill a mortal being. So the suffering must occur after resurrection. As Paul said in 1 Cor. 15:39-42, just as there are three degrees of glory, there are three degrees of resurrection. The resurrection received by those inheriting the Telestial Kingdom differs from that received in the other Kingdoms. 

The Lord Jesus Christ could suffer that degree of pain and suffering before resurrection only because, as the Son, he was both mortal and immortal. Meaning that He had the ability to die, but also the ability to stay alive despite everything. And so, despite the horrible suffering of the Atonement, He willed himself to stay alive from the moment the suffering began in Gethsemane until He uttered the words "It is finished." It would have killed a lesser man long before the atonement was finished.

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

This is why all the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom of glory will first have to be washed in the atoning blood of Christ before can obtain the Telestial Kingdom of glory. This is why redemption through the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to those who are suffering for their sins in the dark regions of the spirit world…

The inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom cannot be washed in the atoning blood of Christ. At most, they receive resurrection through Him, but not atonement. This is because they have rejected His atonement, and they must suffer for their own sins, without Him standing in their place. They don't get to avoid the suffering like the repentant do. This is reflected in the fact that they have no access to the Father or the Son, but only to the Spirit. Whereas those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom do have access to the Son, because they accepted Him, and therefore received remittance through His blood.

There are many in Spirit Prison who will accept Christ's atonement, probably most. But there will be a few whose pride will drive them to reject Him. And as it says, they must suffer "even as I".

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness (the spirit prison) and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead spirit prison. (D&C 138)

and…

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C 138)

This is why those souls who inherit the Telestial Kingdom of heavenly glory will eventually be required to confess unto God the Father that Jesus is the Christ

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

Our scriptures direct us to Philippians 2:9-11 in order to understand what this confessing unto God actually means.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

Those who accept Christ's atonement and receive a remittance of their sins through His atoning sacrifice will have already bowed the knee, and confessed to Him. This is the precondition to receive that remittance.

But those whose pride and sinful nature will cause them to suffer for their own sins, will bow the knee and confess Him only after they have been resurrected and suffered, after which their veil of forgetfulness has been removed, and they then know that He is God -- because they never had faith they could not bow the knee and confess that He is the Christ. <- I don't have a scripture to back that up, however, only logic. They might very well be brought to bow the knee and with their tongues confess that Jesus is the Christ before they pay the price for their own sins.

In the end, however, all will know that Jesus is the Christ, even those who rejected Him.

Edited November 8, 2024 by Stargazer

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Spirit Prison is an unpleasant place,

I don’t see why the educational part of Spirit Prison would have be an unpleasant place.  If those who are gathered there to be taught the gospel are receptive, even if not completely converted yet, why would there need to be unpleasantness?

The Hell part of Spirit Prison where those who are not receptive to the gospel are gathered…that is described as highly unpleasant in the scriptures, but that doesn’t require the rest of Spirit Prison to be such.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng
 

Quote

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

 

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

because they never had faith they could not bow the knee and confess that He is the Christ. <- I don't have a scripture to back that up, however, only logic.

But the devils even recognize he is Christ, the Son of God, do they not?  And even if they hate the thought, they have to submit to him as Lord.

”And devils also came out of many, crying out and saying, “Thou art Christ, the Son of God!” And He, rebuking them, suffered them not to speak; for they knew that He was Christ.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke 4%3A41
 

also

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 8%3A28&version=KJV

Also (the he in these verses is the possessed man, so the demon is doing the bowing…at least according to scripture.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Mark 5%3A6

Edited November 8, 2024 by Calm

[manol]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't mind it. I guess that's how far gone I am. But do see a lot of good in the world. At least it isn't hell. But hell in the LDS church is in the mind.

Imo heavens and hells can be right here and right now, and have more to do with our state of mind than our geography. 

Borrowing from another tradition:

A samurai warrior went to see a monk. “Monk!" He shouted. "Teach me about heaven and hell!”

The monk looked up at the ferocious samurai and replied with disdain,"Teach you about heaven and hell? I couldn't teach you about anything. You're stupid and dirty. You're a disgrace to the samurai class. Get out of my sight.”

The samurai was furious. He shook with rage, drew his sword, and was just an instant away from killing the monk.

Looking straight into the samurai's eyes, the monk said softly, "This is hell.”

The samurai froze, realizing the compassion of the monk who had risked his life to show him hell. He put down his sword and fell to his knees, filled with gratitude. "And this," said the monk, "is heaven."

 

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

... those that don't accept Christ even after knowing He exists. But how do people know that unless they've had a visit?

I don't think "proof", followed by either "acceptance of that proof" or "denial after receiving proof" is a complete description of how it works. 

I think there is a state of mind wherein our awareness transcends what the physical eyes can reveal.  I think a state of mind truly aligned with Christ is our target, and that "proof" is not even a consideration from the perspective of a state of mind which perceives Christ. 

Nor do I think our ability to "locate" Christ is a geography thing; I think it's a state-of-mind thing.

Edited November 8, 2024 by manol

[blackstrap]

The spirit world is here, no ? Spirits live in a different dimension/ frequency of vibration than us but on the same earth. After the resurrection the earth will be renewed and changed and become what , The Telestial world , the Terrestrial world or the Celestial world ... or none of the above ? 

   Speaking of suffering for sins , will I be suffering just for my own sins , or for the sins of those I encouraged to sin or led astray ?

[MustardSeed]

18 hours ago, blackstrap said:

The spirit world is here, no ? Spirits live in a different dimension/ frequency of vibration than us but on the same earth. After the resurrection the earth will be renewed and changed and become what , The Telestial world , the Terrestrial world or the Celestial world ... or none of the above ? 

   Speaking of suffering for sins , will I be suffering just for my own sins , or for the sins of those I encouraged to sin or led astray ?

The spirit world is here? I was not aware of that. 

[Pyreaux]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t see why the educational part of Spirit Prison would have be an unpleasant place.  If those who are gathered there to be taught the gospel are receptive, even if not completely converted yet, why would there need to be unpleasantness?

The Hell part of Spirit Prison where those who are not receptive to the gospel are gathered…that is described as highly unpleasant in the scriptures, but that doesn’t require the rest of Spirit Prison to be such.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

Josephus' Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades:

"[1] NOW as to Hades... This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners."

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

Interesting quote.

I don’t think he is using “agreeable” like we do (meaning “pleasant”), but more in the sense of “matching”, “fit for”, so I am not sure given the description of punishment where I don’t see it likely there is punishment in what I view as more a school than a prison for those not taught the reality of Christ in mortality whether you are trying to support my position (the “agreeable” could be interpreted as meaning “pleasant”) or refute it (because of the inclusion of “punishment”).

Could you clarify what you mean?

Edited November 9, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

It certainly feels like hell.

[california boy]

It certainly feels like heaven.

 

[california boy]

On 11/8/2024 at 9:54 AM, teddyaware said:

Those inherit the Telestial Kingdom of glory will indeed have to suffer for their sins in the spirit prison (hell) prior to to obtaining a place in that lowest of the three kingdoms post-resurrection heavenly glory. But just because these individuals will suffer for their sins while in the spirit prison doesn’t mean that the suffering they endure will atone for their sins, for only the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Son of God can bring about a remission of sins. This is why all the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom of glory will first have to be washed in the atoning blood of Christ before can obtain the Telestial Kingdom of glory. This is why redemption through the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to those who are suffering for their sins in the dark regions of the spirit world…

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness (the spirit prison) and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead spirit prison. (D&C 138)

and…

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C 138)

This is why those souls who inherit the Telestial Kingdom of heavenly glory will eventually be required to confess unto God the Father that Jesus is the Christ

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

Our scriptures direct us to Philippians 2:9-11 in order to understand what this confessing unto God actually means.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

I have a question concerning your belief in suffering for sins.  Will there be people in spiritual prison that say broke the Word of Wisdom and people in Paradise who drank wine all their lives or because of changes in commandments?  

The commandments have changed so much over time, it seems like some will be punished for something that others were totally allowed to do.  Is it totally only about absolute obedience to whatever Church leaders think are commandments of God in their lifetime?  If that is true, are all commandments just about being obedient to what the earthly Church at the time teaches?  And what if church leaders were wrong.  Certainly Christ thought the pharisees were teaching was wrong in His time.  Is Christ going to be punished for picking corn on the Sabbath??

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

It certainly feels like heaven.

 

Well played.

[Pyreaux]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Interesting quote.

I don’t think he is using “agreeable” like we do (meaning “pleasant”), but more in the sense of “matching”, “fit for”, so I am not sure given the description of punishment where I don’t see it likely there is punishment in what I view as more a school than a prison for those not taught the reality of Christ in mortality whether you are trying to support my position (the “agreeable” could be interpreted as meaning “pleasant”) or refute it (because of the inclusion of “punishment”).

Could you clarify what you mean?

This was meant as supportive, Alexandrian Jews thought there was a temporary holding area, where based on your manners was the degree you received discipline. Though in ancient schools, the task of instruction and discipline often went hand-in-hand. The old learning stick. A "schoolmaster [paidagogos (G3807) a tutor, but with the idea of discipline, pais (3816) a boy that is beaten, paio (G3817) to beat (Gal 3:24-25).

Edited November 10, 2024 by Pyreaux

[GoCeltics]

On 11/8/2024 at 10:21 AM, Stargazer said:

The Telestial Kingdom as a kingdom of glory (see DC 76) is for resurrected beings who refused the grace of Jesus Christ and must suffer for their own sins. I realize that we differ from you about what "hell" is, but that's what "hell" is for us: a permanent and everlasting separation from God and Christ. You may find some LDS who believe that promotion from that state is possible over eons of time, but I'm not one of them.

Do individuals in other kingdoms of glory have visits from God, or are they also considered to be in a state of separation from Him, similar to what you describe as “hell”?

[GoCeltics]

On 11/8/2024 at 12:54 PM, teddyaware said:

Those inherit the Telestial Kingdom of glory will indeed have to suffer for their sins in the spirit prison (hell) prior to to obtaining a place in that lowest of the three kingdoms post-resurrection heavenly glory. But just because these individuals will suffer for their sins while in the spirit prison doesn’t mean that the suffering they endure will atone for their sins, for only the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Son of God can bring about a remission of sins. This is why all the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom of glory will first have to be washed in the atoning blood of Christ before can obtain the Telestial Kingdom of glory. This is why redemption through the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to those who are suffering for their sins in the dark regions of the spirit world…

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness (the spirit prison) and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead spirit prison. (D&C 138)

From the looks of it, the gospel of redemption is also preached to the righteous saints in the light regions of the spirit world (D&C 138:14-19). They needed to hear again that redemption had been made possible through the Atonement (35).

Why is it necessary for faithful elders in this dispensation to go there if all the faithful elders from the previous dispensation are already there, being the ones commissioned and likewise commissioning other newly-appointed ones to carry out the same roles (D&C 138:30-32)?

[blackstrap]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

Why is it necessary

About 150,000 souls cross from mortality daily. The place is Busy !

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

From the looks of it, the gospel of redemption is also preached to the righteous saints in the light regions of the spirit world (D&C 138:14-19). They needed to hear again that redemption had been made possible through the Atonement (35).

Why is it necessary for faithful elders in this dispensation to go there if all the faithful elders from the previous dispensation are already there, being the ones commissioned and likewise commissioning other newly-appointed ones to carry out the same roles (D&C 138:30-32)?

Why shouldn’t the elders of this dispensation preach the gospel of repentance to those deceased individuals who lived and died in this dispensation? Perhaps they would be better implored twiddling their spiritual thumbs?

[manol]

On 11/9/2024 at 2:29 PM, The Nehor said:

It certainly feels like hell.

 

On 11/9/2024 at 3:59 PM, california boy said:

It certainly feels like heaven.

 

Imo we choose between experiencing heaven or hell in the present moment throughout the day. 

Imo our power to so choose is limited only by beliefs of powerlessness, which means that the key to claiming our power to choose heaven over hell in the present moment is in our minds. 

If anyone is interested in a thought experiment, imo here is a thought which, if held in one's awareness (sometimes in the foreground, sometimes in the background), can facilitate the shift:  Heaven is the only thing I want.  I choose it now and do not change my mind.  

Edited November 11, 2024 by manol