A Sincere "Thank You" to Ex-Mos

[Analytics]

21 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Although I get frustrated at times listening to ExMos, it dawned on me yesterday while watching YouTube videos of members digging deep into the theology of the faith, that if not for the rise of people leaving the Church, and advocating against it, that many of those members might have just stayed slumbering not really engaged in examining and strengthening their faith. That I can have deeper theological discussions with my fellow Saints, I thank you.

You are sincerely welcome. I’m glad you are learning things.

[The Nehor]

Thank you for throwing yourselves into hell so I can have a lively conversation.

[manol]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

People are  using their agency to choose to be servants for eternity for those who are exalted is fine with me. People who leave the church are not harming the Lord or the church or anything else but themselves.  They are simply throwing everything they hoped for in the premortal world in a great eternal trash can.   I don’t celebrate their decision but I don’t lose sleep over it.  It is their loss.

The following is just my opinion.

Not caring can be a defense mechanism because otherwise it can hurt too deeply, and the prospect of being hurt that deeply is frightening. It's easier and safer to find a justifiable way to not care.

But the Apostle John didn't write, “not caring casts out fear”. Instead he wrote, “perfect love casts out fear”. And I don't think he would have said that if perfect love just buys us pain.

So at the risk of oversimplifying, here's one way that might work:

The worth of souls is great. This includes all souls, for all are alike unto God. We without them cannot be exalted ("made perfect"), neither can they without us be exalted. This truth taught by Joseph Smith extends beyond each person's immediate family connections because ultimately we are ALL connected. It's a web.

Christ's mission is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all mankind, and he will not fail. The Good Shepherd does not give up. If we really believed this, we'd have no reason to fear for our own souls, nor for anyone else's soul. We each still have our part to play; we each have work to do.  And apparently Christ believes in us even if we don't believe in ourselves or in each other. 

He has given us each an assignment that comes into play here. What is it?

“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” And John's teaching is very much in line with this: “Perfect love casts out fear.”

This is not an intellectual exercise! We cannot get there from here by reason and logic. This is a spiritual journey. We use our minds to focus our intention but it is our spirits that choose the higher over the lower even if it doesn't always make perfect sense.  We do our best to find a way.  And when we see that we have screwed up, we re-wind, re-align, and choose again.  As if there is a Liahona inside each of us, and we feel it rather than see it. 

Perfect love is actually already here. It is already all around us but our focus is at a lower level so we do not perceive it. All we need do is lay aside all of our barriers to the awareness of love's presence. This can take a lifetime or more, but it need not.

There is a state of being where fear simply does not enter. And this state of being feels like perfect love.

I realize this is not overtly taught in so many words, but it's in there.

In my opinion.

Edited March 28 by manol

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Thank you for throwing yourselves into hell so I can have a lively conversation.

Misrepresentation...

I'm thankful because now more members aren't just half-asleep doing what they've always done, but are becoming more interested in the deeper things of their faith.

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

People are  using their agency to choose to be servants for eternity for those who are exalted is fine with me. People who leave the church are not harming the Lord or the church or anything else but themselves.  They are simply throwing everything they hoped for in the premortal world in a great eternal trash can.   I don’t celebrate their decision but I don’t lose sleep over it.  It is their loss.

This certainly doesn’t sound like a very Christian approach to our fellow man.

Also, why are you so focused on people being your servants in the afterlife? You’ve brought it up multiple times. It’s kinda weird. 

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Misrepresentation...

I'm thankful because now more members aren't just half-asleep doing what they've always done, but are becoming more interested in the deeper things of their faith.

I don't like the digging into deeper things in religion but all for digging deeper in their faith with the Divine possibly. After seeing how religions can mess people's minds, I want to stay away. I'm not an Ex-LDS yet, but seeing that people do crazy things and use God's name to okay it, is how religion can be a bad thing. 

[Rain]

7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

People are  using their agency to choose to be servants for eternity for those who are exalted is fine with me. People who leave the church are not harming the Lord or the church or anything else but themselves.  They are simply throwing everything they hoped for in the premortal world in a great eternal trash can.   I don’t celebrate their decision but I don’t lose sleep over it.  It is their loss.

Years ago I was giving an RS lesson and it talked about our spiritual enemies in the scriptures. I don't remember the exact phrase, but it was in the Book of Mormon.  It had already bothered me a lot, but was weighing heavy on me as I was preparing for my lesson, especially since I had a sibling and a child who fit the description.  As I was prepared it came to me that these loved ones are not our enemies, but are casualties.

According to church doctrine it is their loss, but as mothers and fathers, parents and siblings part of an eternal family it is their loved one's loss as well. 

[Teancum]

On 3/27/2024 at 9:47 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Do you celebrate the fact that you are likely a contributing factor in the loss of faith of others?

I am not sure how I am contributing to the loss of faith of others. I really do not talk much to LDS believers about the myriad of problems the church has.  I hang out with some active LDS friends. If they want to know why I do not participate I don't bring it up.

That said I find no reason why faith in any supernatural claims that religions make should not be challenged.  I don't find faith, as defined in the religious vernacular, anything that is special or privileged.  In fact in many cases I think it is a bad thing. And it is used in excess to keep people believing in something that is so painfully and obviously false (and I am not just referring to Mormonism).  The religion you worship within celebrates when missionaries destroy the faith a convert may have in the religion they leave.  You celebrate if an evil rotten filthy apostate returns to the fold don't you?  Do I celebrate when a Latter-day Saint loses their faith?  Not really. I sure know how painful it is so I have great empathy and compassion for them. 

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

People are  using their agency to choose to be servants for eternity for those who are exalted is fine with me.

Oh  brother. Aren't you special. I hate to burst your bubble though. What you say above is simply fantasy.

 

16 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

 

People who leave the church are not harming the Lord or the church or anything else but themselves.

In many cases, mine included, the filthy apostate is better off and happier. And they are not harming themselves at all.

16 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

 

 They are simply throwing everything they hoped for in the premortal world in a great eternal trash can.   I don’t celebrate their decision but I don’t lose sleep over it.  It is their loss.

Rather their gain. They no longer have to live a lie. They no longer have to live up to some false standard of obedience. They become well rounded and often more compassionate for the suffering of other humans. And they drop the pretense of somehow being special and better than everyone else, just like your post illustrates.

[BlueDreams]

On 3/26/2024 at 9:20 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Although I get frustrated at times listening to ExMos, it dawned on me yesterday while watching YouTube videos of members digging deep into the theology of the faith, that if not for the rise of people leaving the Church, and advocating against it, that many of those members might have just stayed slumbering not really engaged in examining and strengthening their faith. That I can have deeper theological discussions with my fellow Saints, I thank you.

Honestly, I'm really not following your logic on this. I would hope most engaging in discussion who are active LDS are not motivated to do so only because someone left. And I really doubt they would have been hindered in discussion if those that left, found ways to be comfortable staying.

These aren't really related to each other. 

17 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

People are  using their agency to choose to be servants for eternity for those who are exalted is fine with me. People who leave the church are not harming the Lord or the church or anything else but themselves.  They are simply throwing everything they hoped for in the premortal world in a great eternal trash can.   I don’t celebrate their decision but I don’t lose sleep over it.  It is their loss.

I can't relate. Honestly there's a part of me that is always a little sad when I hear someone left or even needed to leave. I'm sad because I wish I could give them what I have in terms of what I see as truly and wonderfully beautiful in our faith. I wish, when I've had moments of knowing leaving is better for their souls, that we could be better and that our members and communities would work through the things that have harmed or do harm others. I assumed before this post that that was a problem I needed to fix. But I think I prefer this problem over the one you're showing. I'd rather be deeply engaged in humanity than so easily disengaged and dismissive of their value. 

 

Also, this is the second time I've seen you describe the eternal destiny of those who may not receive exaltation and I find it deeply disturbing. It feels like you're juxtaposing a hell/heaven model of the afterlife over an etiology that is by no means that simple and never denigrates the varying degrees of heaven. In fact, in my opinion I think that was one of the creedal abominations God describes to JS because it goes so against the nature of God and us. Each person, wherever they go/receive are described as receiving "a fullness" in scripture. Those in "higher" kingdoms are described and ministering to "lower." They are engaged kingdoms of glory, light, and deity that differ in glory and role...but are still glorious and have place with God. Each of us, especially those given "more" are called to serve and minister.  

Personally that knowledge humbles me. It cautions me in how I engage with others. Nearly everyone I meet will be with me in heaven. God finds them so valuable that They have worked a plan under Christ to redeem all but the most stubborn who refuse and reject any goodness. And I'm called to minister here and there. Then and now. And forever. I can't minister and care if I do not see the value and divine light still shining in them...still reachable...still needed and desired as my brother and sister in the Light of Christ. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

Edited March 28 by BlueDreams

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Honestly, I'm really not following your logic on this. I would hope most engaging in discussion who are active LDS are not motivated to do so only because someone left. And I really doubt they would have been hindered in discussion if those that left, found ways to be comfortable staying.

These aren't really related to each other. 

I can't relate. Honestly there's a part of me that is always a little sad when I hear someone left or even needed to leave. I'm sad because I wish I could give them what I have in terms of what I see as truly and wonderfully beautiful in our faith. I wish, when I've had moments of knowing leaving is better for their souls, that we could be better and that our members and communities would work through the things that have harmed or do harm others. I assumed before this post that that was a problem I needed to fix. But I think I prefer this problem over the one you're showing. I'd rather be deeply engaged in humanity than so easily disengaged and dismissive of their value. 

 

Also, this is the second time I've seen you describe the eternal destiny of those who may not receive exaltation and I find it deeply disturbing. It feels like you're juxtaposing a hell/heaven model of the afterlife over an etiology that is by no means that simple and never denigrates the varying degrees of heaven. In fact, in my opinion I think that was one of the creedal abominations God describes to JS because it goes so against the nature of God and us. Each person, wherever they go/receive are described as receiving "a fullness" in scripture. Those in "higher" kingdoms are described and ministering to "lower." They are engaged kingdoms of glory, light, and deity that differ in glory and role...but are still glorious and have place with God. 

Personally that knowledge humbles me. It cautions me in how I engage with others. Nearly everyone I meet will be with me in heaven. God finds them so valuable that They have worked a plan under Christ to redeem all but the most stubborn who refuse and reject any goodness. And I'm called to minister here and there. Then and now. And forever. I can't minister and care if I do not see the value and divine light still shining in them...still reachable...still needed and desired as my brother and sister in the Light of Christ. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

Wonderful post!

He/she needs to understand that being in "heaven" - whichever one-  - will be a true paradise for all who achieve it.

I would love to be a direct servant of Jesus Christ forever.  Can you imagine that?

Isn't that what we all try to achieve here on earth ?

 

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

People are  using their agency to choose to be servants for eternity for those who are exalted is fine with me. People who leave the church are not harming the Lord or the church or anything else but themselves.  They are simply throwing everything they hoped for in the premortal world in a great eternal trash can.   I don’t celebrate their decision but I don’t lose sleep over it.  It is their loss.

Also, thankyou for this post. It illustrates well that most care and friendship from LDS members towards other members is contingent and transactional.  Most members quickly write off those that leave. Especially those that were very active and then are not. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

Honestly, I'm really not following your logic on this. I would hope most engaging in discussion who are active LDS are not motivated to do so only because someone left. And I really doubt they would have been hindered in discussion if those that left, found ways to be comfortable staying.

These aren't really related to each other. 

I can't relate. Honestly there's a part of me that is always a little sad when I hear someone left or even needed to leave. I'm sad because I wish I could give them what I have in terms of what I see as truly and wonderfully beautiful in our faith. I wish, when I've had moments of knowing leaving is better for their souls, that we could be better and that our members and communities would work through the things that have harmed or do harm others. I assumed before this post that that was a problem I needed to fix. But I think I prefer this problem over the one you're showing. I'd rather be deeply engaged in humanity than so easily disengaged and dismissive of their value. 

 

Also, this is the second time I've seen you describe the eternal destiny of those who may not receive exaltation and I find it deeply disturbing. It feels like you're juxtaposing a hell/heaven model of the afterlife over an etiology that is by no means that simple and never denigrates the varying degrees of heaven. In fact, in my opinion I think that was one of the creedal abominations God describes to JS because it goes so against the nature of God and us. Each person, wherever they go/receive are described as receiving "a fullness" in scripture. Those in "higher" kingdoms are described and ministering to "lower." They are engaged kingdoms of glory, light, and deity that differ in glory and role...but are still glorious and have place with God. 

Personally that knowledge humbles me. It cautions me in how I engage with others. Nearly everyone I meet will be with me in heaven. God finds them so valuable that They have worked a plan under Christ to redeem all but the most stubborn who refuse and reject any goodness. And I'm called to minister here and there. Then and now. And forever. I can't minister and care if I do not see the value and divine light still shining in them...still reachable...still needed and desired as my brother and sister in the Light of Christ. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

Addressing to part directed at me:

I do think with more and more people having a "faith crisis" it has caused the slumbering to wake up and ask why people they knew as faithful are abandoning their faith, which has caused them to delve deeper into church history and theology. Which is a good thing.

[BlueDreams]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Also, thankyou for this post. It illustrates well that most care and friendship from LDS members towards other members is contingent and transactional.  Most members quickly write off those that leave. Especially those that were very active and then are not. 

Teancum, why does his post represent most members while mine and others who've said something similar here do not?....even though there are more of us than him even in this thread saying otherwise. 

 

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Wonderful post!

He/she needs to understand that being in "heaven" - whichever one-  - will be a true paradise for all who achieve receive it.

I would love to be a direct servant of Jesus Christ forever.  Can you imagine that?

Isn't that what we all try to achieve Receive here on earth ?

 

THanks.

Now I completely agree

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

6 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Addressing to part directed at me:

I do think with more and more people having a "faith crisis" it has caused the slumbering to wake up and ask why people they knew as faithful are abandoning their faith, which has caused them to delve deeper into church history and theology. Which is a good thing.

Thanks, this makes a little more sense to me as to what you mean.

I don't know if I would describe it that way, per se. But I do think there's an aspect of the experiences of others that have made me learn and expand my own faith practice. Though I also wouldn't have described myself as slumbering prior either. Engaging with people in different ways and dynamics just tends to shift us in one way or another. 

 

With luv,

BD 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, BlueDreams said:

Thanks, this makes a little more sense to me as to what you mean.

I don't know if I would describe it that way, per se. But I do think there's an aspect of the experiences of others that have made me learn and expand my own faith practice. Though I also wouldn't have described myself as slumbering prior either. Engaging with people in different ways and dynamics just tends to shift us in one way or another. 

 

With luv,

BD 

I think we are somewhat agreeing that the "faith crisis" phenomenon has served a useful purpose for some active members?

[BlueDreams]

12 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think we are somewhat agreeing that the "faith crisis" phenomenon has served a useful purpose for some active members?

I think so. I think there've been many who had a faith crisis or transition that's built a more robust/dynamic faith for themselves due to the experience. And I think there's been those who've had to grow in their faith and experiences by engaging with those who've had one and either stayed or left depending.

 

With luv,

BD 

Edited March 28 by BlueDreams

[Teancum]

26 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Teancum, why does his post represent most members while mine and others who've said something similar here do not?....even though there are more of us than him even in this thread saying otherwise. 

 

With luv,

BD

I retract the part about most members as for as members are represented on this thread. And I had not seen other posts till after I poster my comment.

However, I can tell you, as I have shared before, for quite some time after I stopped attending, nobody, and I mean nobody, from the ward I was a bishop of for almost 6 years, as well as a EA president, ward mission leader, YM president, councilor in a bishopric and so on, reached out to check on me and ask why I was not attending, save one friend who was my first councilor while I was a bishop.  And he knew about my faith journey anyways.  So what message should I take away from the ward I have lived in for over 40 years.  And most of those years I was an active believing member. This group that did not reach out included a number of friends that I thought I was close to.

[teddyaware]

12 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Honestly, I'm really not following your logic on this. I would hope most engaging in discussion who are active LDS are not motivated to do so only because someone left. And I really doubt they would have been hindered in discussion if those that left, found ways to be comfortable staying.

These aren't really related to each other. 

I can't relate. Honestly there's a part of me that is always a little sad when I hear someone left or even needed to leave. I'm sad because I wish I could give them what I have in terms of what I see as truly and wonderfully beautiful in our faith. I wish, when I've had moments of knowing leaving is better for their souls, that we could be better and that our members and communities would work through the things that have harmed or do harm others. I assumed before this post that that was a problem I needed to fix. But I think I prefer this problem over the one you're showing. I'd rather be deeply engaged in humanity than so easily disengaged and dismissive of their value. 

 

Also, this is the second time I've seen you describe the eternal destiny of those who may not receive exaltation and I find it deeply disturbing. It feels like you're juxtaposing a hell/heaven model of the afterlife over an etiology that is by no means that simple and never denigrates the varying degrees of heaven. In fact, in my opinion I think that was one of the creedal abominations God describes to JS because it goes so against the nature of God and us. Each person, wherever they go/receive are described as receiving "a fullness" in scripture. Those in "higher" kingdoms are described and ministering to "lower." They are engaged kingdoms of glory, light, and deity that differ in glory and role...but are still glorious and have place with God. 

Personally that knowledge humbles me. It cautions me in how I engage with others. Nearly everyone I meet will be with me in heaven. God finds them so valuable that They have worked a plan under Christ to redeem all but the most stubborn who refuse and reject any goodness. And I'm called to minister here and there. Then and now. And forever. I can't minister and care if I do not see the value and divine light still shining in them...still reachable...still needed and desired as my brother and sister in the Light of Christ. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

If it weren’t for the eternal law of opposition in all things, the foundational theological principle upon which all truth is affirmed and all things are enabled to exist, it would be impossible to grow in knowledge in any way because nothing would exist, therefore there would be nothing about which to learn. It’s only by the infinite variety of contrasts, created within the framework of opposition in all things, that we’re able to study, contemplate and come to know anything about anything. Therefore all ZealouslyStriving is saying is that if it weren’t for the highly focused and assiduous efforts of  the enemies of restoration, who seemingly labor day and night to disprove the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, most members would become lackadaisical in their gospel studies, with only a pathetically weak, superficial knowledge of the gospel. As the saying goes, “When the going gets tough, the tough get going,” and when the spiritually tough get going they emerge victorious in this life or the world to come. But the victories wouldn’t happen without the determined opposition that requires a tough and more powerful response. 

It’s just like anything else in life: if we never had to strive to overcome formidable oppositional forces, especially in those cases when evil challenges good and error challenges truth, it would be virtually inevitable that we would become spiritually and intellectually lazy, weak, vapid and ineffectual. Therefore I must must say that I heartily concur with ZealouslyStriving, for I know of a surety that if it weren’t for my willingness to confront and overcome the doctrinal challenges posed by the forces who stand in opposition to the restored church, I wouldn’t have the firm and steadfast testimony of the restored gospel that I now gratefully possess. Thanks to these enemies of the church I now have powerful and convincing answers to many gospel questions that perplex and befuddle many. And if it weren’t for the oppositional forces that attempt to destroy truth and righteousness, the needed refiner’s fire required to purify and sanctify the saint’s in their quest to lay hold on eternal life wouldn’t exist, and God’s plan of salvation would fail at every turn.

Yes it’s often solemn, sad and uncomfortable when those who are sincerely striving to obtain eternal life come to the realization that their eventual triumph wouldn’t be possible without opposition coming from those who succumb to evil and come out in open opposition to God and his righteousness, but the fact of the matter is that without the opposition that comes from the devil and his fallen hosts, and those earthbound souls who choose to follow them, obtaining eternal life would be impossible; for the tests required to accomplish that end wouldn’t exist. It’s even as the Savior said: “Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!” (Matthew 18:7)

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

most care and friendship from LDS members towards other members is contingent and transactional.  Most members quickly write off those that leave. Especially those that were very active and then are not. 

Are most of the LDS posters who are responding to him supportive of his position or disagreeing with it?  Seems to me most here are against that view.

Knowing the Saints I know, I think few have that attitude these days when those leaving are much more vocal about why they are in my experience and the attitude tends to be a personality thing (they are like this with work and other social relationships that have nothing to do with church) and not a doctrinal argument that they make.

added:  see this has already been addressed and retracted 👍

Edited March 28 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I retract the part about most members as for as members are represented on this thread. And I had not seen other posts till after I poster my comment.

However, I can tell you, as I have shared before, for quite some time after I stopped attending, nobody, and I mean nobody, from the ward I was a bishop of for almost 6 years, as well as a EA president, ward mission leader, YM president, councilor in a bishopric and so on, reached out to check on me and ask why I was not attending, save one friend who was my first councilor while I was a bishop.  And he knew about my faith journey anyways.  So what message should I take away from the ward I have lived in for over 40 years.  And most of those years I was an active believing member. This group that did not reach out included a number of friends that I thought I was close to.

Exactly, so many have shared these experiences in the ex mo world or those that have had crisis of faith, me included.

Edited March 28 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, manol said:

The following is just my opinion.

Not caring can be a defense mechanism because otherwise it can hurt too deeply, and the prospect of being hurt that deeply is frightening. It's easier and safer to find a justifiable way to not care.

 

This has always been one of my beefs with buddhism and trying to ascend to nirvana.  The Third Noble Truth is that "when craving is removed, suffering ceases and nirvana is attained."

So many things--such as love--must include suffering and sorrow.  Trying to live your life so that you never suffer means that you can never really love either, and that, in my view, is not something to aim for.  It's a misunderstanding of the purpose of pain and the point of life.

[Rain]

52 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I retract the part about most members as for as members are represented on this thread. And I had not seen other posts till after I poster my comment.

However, I can tell you, as I have shared before, for quite some time after I stopped attending, nobody, and I mean nobody, from the ward I was a bishop of for almost 6 years, as well as a EA president, ward mission leader, YM president, councilor in a bishopric and so on, reached out to check on me and ask why I was not attending, save one friend who was my first councilor while I was a bishop.  And he knew about my faith journey anyways.  So what message should I take away from the ward I have lived in for over 40 years.  And most of those years I was an active believing member. This group that did not reach out included a number of friends that I thought I was close to.

I'm sorry you lost those friendships.  As a bishop I'm sure you grew to love so many you served and to lose those loved ones on top of the struggles with faith must have been very difficult and lonely.

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Exactly, so may have shared these experiences in the ex mo world or those that have had crisis of faith. Me included 

Hugs. ❤️