A Sincere "Thank You" to Ex-Mos

[ZealouslyStriving]

Although I get frustrated at times listening to ExMos, it dawned on me yesterday while watching YouTube videos of members digging deep into the theology of the faith, that if not for the rise of people leaving the Church, and advocating against it, that many of those members might have just stayed slumbering not really engaged in examining and strengthening their faith. That I can have deeper theological discussions with my fellow Saints, I thank you.

[MustardSeed]

I dunno, a “sincere thank you” might be a stretch.  Not sure where you’re going with that but ok? 
“Ex Mormons” get such a bad rap. 
 

I’m glad to see the JWitnesses backing down a little from their position on excommunication and shunning rules.  Not much, but some.  We could also be a bit less critical. Why can’t we simply accept that the Mormon church isn’t really for everybody? (Meaning, not everybody finds peace in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints.) 

Edited March 27, 2024 by MustardSeed

[Pyreaux]

God hardened Pharoh's heart to oppose Moses. So, that after seeing signs and wonders, he will not listen. (Exodus 7:3-4). There might be those in opposition to the church, who in reality might have been sent by the God they don't believe in and are really the agents of agency.

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

God hardened Pharoh's heart to oppose Moses. So, that after seeing signs and wonders, he will not listen. (Exodus 7:3-4). There might be those in opposition to the church, who in reality might have been sent by the God they don't believe in and are really the agents of agency.

And both sides are just puppets playing out their drama?

[Teancum]

9 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Although I get frustrated at times listening to ExMos, it dawned on me yesterday while watching YouTube videos of members digging deep into the theology of the faith, that if not for the rise of people leaving the Church, and advocating against it, that many of those members might have just stayed slumbering not really engaged in examining and strengthening their faith. That I can have deeper theological discussions with my fellow Saints, I thank you.

You do realize that the church is and has been losing a lot of previously very active devoted members. Very strong members. Do you celebrate losing them as well? 

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And both sides are just puppets playing out their drama?

Or....

God, knowing the wicked thoughts of the hearts of men, orchestrates circumstances so that, when those thoughts begin to bear fruit, His righteous purposes might be accomplished.

Edited March 27, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[ZealouslyStriving]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You do realize that the church is and has been losing a lot of previously very active devoted members. Very strong members. Do you celebrate losing them as well? 

While I don't celebrate losing my brothers and sisters because of the testimony of traitors (Doctrine & Covenants 122:3) I am glad it has helped others to wake up and strengthen their faith.

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

God hardened Pharoh's heart to oppose Moses. So, that after seeing signs and wonders, he will not listen. (Exodus 7:3-4). There might be those in opposition to the church, who in reality might have been sent by the God they don't believe in and are really the agents of agency.

Looks like Joseph Smith modified the meaning of the passages about God hardening Pharoah's heart.

The Lord is not responsible for Pharaoh’s hardness of heart. See also JST, Exodus 7:3, 13; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17; each reference, when correctly translated, shows that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand, and I will prosper thee; but Pharaoh will harden his heart, and he will not let the people go.

[Teancum]

14 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

While I don't celebrate losing my brothers and sisters because of the testimony of traitors (Doctrine & Covenants 122:3) I am glad it has helped others to wake up and strengthen their faith.

Must be nice to be so special.

[ZealouslyStriving]

11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Must be nice to be so special.

Do you celebrate the fact that you are likely a contributing factor in the loss of faith of others?

[LoudmouthMormon]

48 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You do realize that the church is and has been losing a lot of previously very active devoted members. Very strong members. Do you celebrate losing them as well? 

[lightheartedHumor] I bet you were fun back when we were getting Utah up and running. [/LHHumor]

[Smiley McGee]

11 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Although I get frustrated at times listening to ExMos, it dawned on me yesterday while watching YouTube videos of members digging deep into the theology of the faith, that if not for the rise of people leaving the Church, and advocating against it, that many of those members might have just stayed slumbering not really engaged in examining and strengthening their faith. That I can have deeper theological discussions with my fellow Saints, I thank you.

 

7 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

God hardened Pharoh's heart to oppose Moses. So, that after seeing signs and wonders, he will not listen. (Exodus 7:3-4). There might be those in opposition to the church, who in reality might have been sent by the God they don't believe in and are really the agents of agency.

I, for one, am just grateful to play some small part in this universe you guys are the center of.

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

 

I, for one, am just grateful to play some small part in this universe you guys are the center of.

God's love is infinite - so you, Pyraeux, me, Teancum, etc... are all the center of God's universe.

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

You do realize that the church is and has been losing a lot of previously very active devoted members. Very strong members. Do you celebrate losing them as well? 

The data.
https://www.prri.org/research/religious-change-in-america/

[Doctor Steuss]

4 minutes ago, Nofear said:

The data.
https://www.prri.org/research/religious-change-in-america/

I didn't know I could decide to not be Jewish anymore.  Buh-bye, maternal DNA.  I bid thee adieu.

[Nofear]

9 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I didn't know I could decide to not be Jewish anymore.  Buh-bye, maternal DNA.  I bid thee adieu.

You didn't know you could say, "I don't self identify as Jewish"?

[LoudmouthMormon]

17 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I didn't know I could decide to not be Jewish anymore.  Buh-bye, maternal DNA.  I bid thee adieu.

Weren't we all arguing at the top of our lungs about Jewish DNA and BoM claims in the 2000's?  I think the winning tidbit was "Jewish can have an ancestry component, a genetic component, a belief component, and a cultural component - in any combination."

In other words, don't tell my Gospel Doctrine instructor that he's not Jewish.  But he also wants to make sure he's in the "Current affiliation LDS" and "Leaving group Jewish" numbers in that chart.

Edited March 27, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Nofear]

More statistics. Article references two recent surveys.

https://www.axios.com/2024/03/27/church-religious-services-american-attendance-drop

One of them: "A separate Gallup survey published this week found that Latter-day Saints are the only religious group wherein a majority say they attend services weekly, at 54%."

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Looks like Joseph Smith modified the meaning of the passages about God hardening Pharoah's heart.

The Lord is not responsible for Pharaoh’s hardness of heart. See also JST, Exodus 7:3, 13; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17; each reference, when correctly translated, shows that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand, and I will prosper thee; but Pharaoh will harden his heart, and he will not let the people go.

Yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart, “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). It seems that God was active in one way or another in the outcome of Pharaoh.

Romans 9:17-18 declares, “For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore, God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.” From one perspective, it seems for God to harden a person might entitle them to some mercy, seeing they are less culpable for their actions than other. Those with greater light receive the greater condemnation, and vice versa.

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And both sides are just puppets playing out their drama?

In a way, there is a plan for each of us. We were preordained. We all serve a purpose. Even the devils unwittingly serve God. Judgement of people's lives might be very gray that it would take a God to judge whether they did what they were sent to do.

[TheTanakas]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Looks like Joseph Smith modified the meaning of the passages about God hardening Pharoah's heart.

The Lord is not responsible for Pharaoh’s hardness of heart. See also JST, Exodus 7:3, 13; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17; each reference, when correctly translated, shows that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand, and I will prosper thee; but Pharaoh will harden his heart, and he will not let the people go.

This analysis covers both aspects.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/the-hardening-of-pharoahs-heart/

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

In a way, there is a plan for each of us. We were preordained. We all serve a purpose. Even the devils unwittingly serve God. Judgement of people's lives might be very gray that it would take a God to judge whether they did what they were sent to do.

That explains a lot.

[LoudmouthMormon]

My family stuck through like 4 seasons of that show.  Until it finally dawned on us that we were basically watching a 1970's era soap opera with a higher special effects budget.

[MrShorty]

@carbon dioxide That seems awful calloused. It might be true in every possible sense of being true, but it still seems awful calloused to me.

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

People are  using their agency to choose to be servants for eternity for those who are exalted is fine with me. People who leave the church are not harming the Lord or the church or anything else but themselves.  They are simply throwing everything they hoped for in the premortal world in a great eternal trash can.   I don’t celebrate their decision but I don’t lose sleep over it.  It is their loss.

If we love them, isn't it our loss too?  Isn't it the Lord's loss, and God the Father's loss?

[Doctor Steuss]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If we love them, isn't it our loss too?  Isn't it the Lord's loss, and God the Father's loss?

If only there were some parables about this sort of thing... 

On a more serious note (not that the above isn't), I've always found it curious how some people are able to so easily self-identify with Christ in the temple with a whip, but have difficulty self-identifying with Christ the Shepard, or Christ who defended sinners from the judgements of the pious.

I guess as long as someone's sins are different than ours, it's only them who are exercising unwise agency.  Thank goodness for only being tempted to do the good kind of sins, that have no consequences.