A Sincere "Thank You" to Ex-Mos

[bluebell]

54 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I retract the part about most members as for as members are represented on this thread. And I had not seen other posts till after I poster my comment.

However, I can tell you, as I have shared before, for quite some time after I stopped attending, nobody, and I mean nobody, from the ward I was a bishop of for almost 6 years, as well as a EA president, ward mission leader, YM president, councilor in a bishopric and so on, reached out to check on me and ask why I was not attending, save one friend who was my first councilor while I was a bishop.  And he knew about my faith journey anyways.  So what message should I take away from the ward I have lived in for over 40 years.  And most of those years I was an active believing member. This group that did not reach out included a number of friends that I thought I was close to.

The message you maybe should takeaway is that they didn't know what to do, and like so many who don't know what to do--and also don't want to do anything to make it worse--they did nothing.

I've heard enough ex-members lambast members for showing up and trying to get them back to church (that narrative is all over social media and the internet) that I tend to err on the side of what feels like caution to me and assume they don't want contact/to talk about it.  I'm not saying that's the right thing to do; only explaining that my inaction does not come from not caring or not valuing them anything.

Your leaders especially should have reached out, and friends should have as well.  I'm sorry they didn't.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

do think with more and more people having a "faith crisis" it has caused the slumbering to wake up and ask why people they knew as faithful are abandoning their faith, which has caused them to delve deeper into church history and theology. Which is a good thing.

At FAIR, in the letters of those who write looking for help on finding some information referring to those who leave, there is often a deep sadness and an expression of great loss when they talk about how someone they know no longer believes.  Quite a few volunteers are there because of a family member or friend who became very vocal in their criticism.  And when they talk about it they still feel the loss deeply even though it may be half a lifetime since the loss occurred.

I suppose you could look at someone who becomes a doctor because their sibling, parent, or friend died tragically in front of them while they felt helpless and they blame themselves for doing nothing or not knowing there was something wrong before it all went to hell and they live with that nightmare and pain of loss second guessing themselves the rest of their lives as a good thing.  After all, there is another doctor out to help others even if their inner soul has been scarred.

I, on the other hand, while I celebrate the fact someone is a good doctor or a sincere seeker of their faith, I see no reasons to include in that celebration any tragedy that might be part of the motivation to get there.  In that I would mourn with them.

God says he will turn all things to our good, even the tragedies, but there is no celebration of the pain and mourning that is a part of that.  Rather he speaks of perfect healing and no more suffering and how could that be if there is still any loss?  I don’t believed something is no longer a loss because we no longer care about the person.  If anything, with our greater knowledge and more perfect love we will care even more than we are capable of in this life.  Instead somehow there will be no loss because there will be restoration of loving relationships, not destruction.

As a side note, I think most joined FAIR because they love to learn and discuss and explore and religion is part of that as well as having a desire to share their faith and to challenge it by having others critique it.  Though that may be my own experience being projected on others. I may ask.  I have always looked for others to discuss their ideas of faith as well as my own and I have found great benefit in learning new ways to explore my own faith by hearing of the path others have taken.  If I can help others who are struggling, that is an added something….calling it a benefit is wrong, I would prefer the need not exist and I don’t look at others’ pain as improving my life because I can feel good about myself if I can help.  But I get frustrated knowing there are people suffering who might suffer less if they can get some help and they can’t get it because there is no way to connect those who need with those who can help fill the need.  FAIR provides a way to provide help to those who need it and I am grateful to be part of that and wish we could do more.

Edited March 28, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Also, why are you so focused on people being your servants in the afterlife? You’ve brought it up multiple times. It’s kinda weird. 

Kink thing?

[Tacenda]

52 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The message you maybe should takeaway is that they didn't know what to do, and like so many who don't know what to do--and also don't want to do anything to make it worse--they did nothing.

I've heard enough ex-members lambast members for showing up and trying to get them back to church (that narrative is all over social media and the internet) that I tend to err on the side of what feels like caution to me and assume they don't want contact/to talk about it.  I'm not saying that's the right thing to do; only explaining that my inaction does not come from not caring or not valuing them anything.

Your leaders especially should have reached out, and friends should have as well.  I'm sorry they didn't.

I know so it seems the members can't get a break. But a lot of times members don't even bring up missing not seeing those that quit coming, or ask why. Is it because they've been warned about doubters or ? The first counselor and bishop knew of my doubts because I brought it up to the counselor when he was calling me to teach Primary after being released as RS secretary after serving for the full time. I wasn't sure if I could truthfully testify to the lessons I'd be teaching since it was the D&C year of study.

Edited March 28, 2024 by Tacenda

[manol]

59 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This has always been one of my beefs with buddhism and trying to ascend to nirvana.  The Third Noble Truth is that "when craving is removed, suffering ceases and nirvana is attained."

So many things--such as love--must include suffering and sorrow.  Trying to live your life so that you never suffer means that you can never really love either, and that, in my view, is not something to aim for.  It's a misunderstanding of the purpose of pain and the point of life.

Yes!!

When his friend Lazarus died, Jesus wept.  He fully experienced the human emotion even though he was well aware that death was only a temporary separation, and especially so in this case. 

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I know so it seems the members can't get a break. But a lot of times members don't even bring up missing not seeing those that quit coming, or ask why. Is it because they've been warned about doubters or ? The first counselor and bishop knew of my doubts because I brought it up to the counselor when he was calling me to teach Primary after being released as RS secretary after serving for the full time. I wasn't sure if I could truthfully testify to the lessons I'd be teaching since it was the D&C year of study.

We talk about the missing all the time in our RS presidency meetings (which happen once a week).  We try to assign them ministering sisters who will go and interact with them and we check in with those sisters every three months.  I know they talk about them all the time in Ward council too.  We even had a fast for them at the beginning of March.

But from the outside looking in, maybe they feel like they've been forgotten?

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, manol said:

Yes!!

When his friend Lazarus died, Jesus wept.  He fully experienced the human emotion even though he was well aware that death was only a temporary separation, and especially so in this case. 

Sorrow is the price of love.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We talk about the missing all the time in our RS presidency meetings (which happen once a week).  We try to assign them ministering sisters who will go and interact with them and we check in with those sisters every three months.  I know they talk about them all the time in Ward council too.  We even had a fast for them at the beginning of March.

But from the outside looking in, maybe they feel like they've been forgotten?

In my old ward just a phone call would be sufficient same as my recent ward even a text. I asked to not be on the list to visit from ministering sisters because I'd get drop offs and such which to me can be costly, all I asked for was a text or call. But it's not happened. I don't understand why. Are they afraid to talk to the doubt germ? Which I would never do to anyone. ETA: this happened in both wards.

Edited March 28, 2024 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

In my old ward just a phone would be sufficient same as my recent ward even a text. I asked to not be in the list to visit from ministering sisters because I'd get drop offs and such which to me can be costly, all I asked for was a text or call. But it's not happened. I don't understand why. Are they afraid to talk to the doubt germ? Which I would never do to anyone.

I sincerely doubt they are afraid of you.  Maybe you somehow got entered as a 'do not contact' in LDS tools?  You should pm me your stake and real name and I can totally fix this issue for you.   

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I sincerely doubt they are afraid of you.  Maybe you somehow got entered as a 'do not contact' in LDS tools?  You should pm me your stake and real name and I can totally fix this issue for you.   

I'm in there along with my photo and my cell.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm in there along with my photo and my cell.

Can you see who your ministering sisters are? 

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I retract the part about most members as for as members are represented on this thread. And I had not seen other posts till after I poster my comment.

However, I can tell you, as I have shared before, for quite some time after I stopped attending, nobody, and I mean nobody, from the ward I was a bishop of for almost 6 years, as well as a EA president, ward mission leader, YM president, councilor in a bishopric and so on, reached out to check on me and ask why I was not attending, save one friend who was my first councilor while I was a bishop.  And he knew about my faith journey anyways.  So what message should I take away from the ward I have lived in for over 40 years.  And most of those years I was an active believing member. This group that did not reach out included a number of friends that I thought I was close to.

I'm sorry for the pain that likely caused you while you're figuring out your new space In life.

I honestly don't know why that happened. I assume a big part of it is natural. I've moved wards countless times in my life. Almost none of the relationships stay. Even when the move is small. That goes for when I've moved schools, jobs, and other sources for relational engagement as well. This includes really good friends at the time. I've made so many major shifts in my life that I kinda just expect it. Part of it is just natural... Just a part of what happens as we transition in life particularly when the main vehicle of our engagement with said people is removed. I would assume that's the majority of the ward. 

 

Part of it could be more. It could be some didn't know how to engage. It could be a couple were like carbon dioxide and have a 'good riddance' mentality. I doubt that's most. I'd be surprised if that was more than just a few. Not because I don't think that element can be there. But because the general rule with major shifts in where we socialize means that who you'll socialize with will majorly shift. 

 

With luv,

BD 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you see who your ministering sisters are? 

Not on the LDS.org website, couldn't see them. But they did come by and give me a Xmas gift randomly. No call or text, which is fine but I thought I'd been taken off the list. But I guess not, and received a questionnaire email from the RS presidency on my experience with my ministering sisters, which everyone gets. And they listed who they are there.

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not on the LDS.org website, couldn't see them. But they did come by and give me a Xmas gift randomly. No call or text, which is fine but I thought I'd been taken off the list. But I guess not, and received a questionnaire email from the RS presidency on my experience with my ministering sisters, which everyone gets. And they listed who they are there.

If you have LDS tools (and you'd like to know who they are) then you should have access to their names and contact info.  Click on your name (which it sounds like you said is on there) and then look under ministering.   

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Yes!!

When his friend Lazarus died, Jesus wept.  He fully experienced the human emotion even though he was well aware that death was only a temporary separation, and especially so in this case. 

I like that quote from Rumi:  "Love is the whole thing.  We are only pieces."

[Doctor Steuss]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I like that quote from Rumi:  "Love is the whole thing.  We are only pieces."

I have been re-reading the Pirkei Avot this year, and a few weeks back this exchange really stood out to me.  I think this is my 4th (maybe 5th) time reading the Pirkei Avot, and I am always surprised (and delighted) how certain things stand out to us when rereading something that we previously glossed over because of where we were in our life at that point.

It's an exchange between several Rabbis.  One of the Rabbis (Yohanan ben Zakkai) asks what is the right way of life that one should hold to.  One Rabbi says it is to have a generosity of spirt, another to be a good colleague, another a good neighbor, and another to be one who considers the consequences of one's actions.  The last Rabbi (Eleazar ben Arakh) responds that one should have a good heart.

To this, Yohanan says that he prefers the answer of Eleazar, because his right way of life (to have a good heart) includes all of the others.

[manol]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I like that quote from Rumi:  "Love is the whole thing.  We are only pieces."

I hadn't seen that before.  That is very profound.  Thank you. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

To be clear... I in know why am advocating a good riddance attitude towards those who abandon their faith- it is profoundly sad to me. Even when I had my differences with the Church, it always saddened me to see people loose their faith in the Restored Gospel.

I wanted to highlight that there is some good coming from all the noise made by the most virulent former members.

As for the claim of some who leave, yet continually advocate against the Church, your claims of being happier than you've ever been in your life is contradictory to the bitterness contained in many of your post. Your fruits are not displaying that happiness. Just sayin'

[Doctor Steuss]

26 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

[...] your claims of being happier than you've ever been in your life is contradictory to the bitterness contained in many of your post. Your fruits are not displaying that happiness. Just sayin'

*self-awareness leaves the chat*

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

This has always been one of my beefs with buddhism and trying to ascend to nirvana.  The Third Noble Truth is that "when craving is removed, suffering ceases and nirvana is attained."

So many things--such as love--must include suffering and sorrow.  Trying to live your life so that you never suffer means that you can never really love either, and that, in my view, is not something to aim for.  It's a misunderstanding of the purpose of pain and the point of life.

I'm pretty sure this is not how Buddhist would describe their beliefs. They would probably say that defining love as something that must include suffering and sorrow is actually not understanding love -- sorrow is not necessary for love, we only think it is because we are ignorant and thus it is the only way we have experienced love: wrapped up in attachment and desire. They would probably argue that ignorance of the true nature of things is what causes sorrow. They might also say that Buddhism isn't about living life so that you never suffer (that sounds like avoidance), but is about living life in a way that is in alignment with the true nature of things, especially the way the mind works.

I don't want to derail the threat talking about Buddhism, but I also wanted to toss in my two cents here based on the time I spent 25 years ago studying Theravadan Buddhism, including retreats at Thai Buddhist monasteries.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm pretty sure this is not how Buddhist would describe their beliefs. They would probably say that defining love as something that must include suffering and sorrow is actually not understanding love -- sorrow is not necessary for love, we only think it is because we are ignorant and thus it is the only way we have experienced love: wrapped up in attachment and desire. They would probably argue that ignorance of the true nature of things is what causes sorrow. They might also say that Buddhism isn't about living life so that you never suffer (that sounds like avoidance), but is about living life in a way that is in alignment with the true nature of things, especially the way the mind works.

I don't want to derail the threat talking about Buddhism, but I also wanted to toss in my two cents here based on the time I spent 25 years ago studying Theravada Buddhism, including retreats at Thai Buddhist monasteries.

They probably would.  I've only taken a couple of classes on the topic (12 years ago in college) so my knowledge is rudimentary at best. 

From my understanding, buddhism discourages attachment in love (including romantic love).  I thought they also discouraged emotions as inherently temporary, and that some consider love to be an emotion.  Perhaps that is why they do not believe that love sometimes includes sorrow (like at death, for example, or when a loved one does something to harm themselves, like is addicted to drugs)?

From my perspective, love without attachment isn't love.  It's absolutely fine that Buddhism might disagree with me and view it a different way. How I feel about their beliefs is of no consequence to them.  But that is one of my struggles with it.

I read that Theravada is the more conservative of the different types (is that the right word?) of Buddhism.  What does that mean, more conservative?

Edited March 28, 2024 by bluebell

[Calm]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Your fruits are not displaying that happiness. Just sayin'

As Dr. Streuss so deftly pointed out and I have to belabour, many of us are reading a not particularly happy vibe in your posts on this. For me there seems self centerness (not considering the pain for all involved) as well as a certain sour grapes, as in “if they don’t want me, I certainly don’t want them”.  I would say not only sour, but bitter.

Now there may be in reality nothing of that in your posts dealing with critics and former members, but if so than perhaps you should consider just as I and others appear to have misread you  according to you, you may be misreading others and assuming bitterness, etc where there is none. 

Edited March 28, 2024 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

As Dr. Streuss so deftly pointed out and I have to belabour, many of us are reading a not particularly happy vibe in your posts on this. For me there seems self centerness (not considering the pain for all involved) as well as a certain sour grapes, as in “if they don’t want me, I certainly don’t want them”.  I would say not only sour, but bitter.

Now there may be in reality nothing of that in your posts dealing with critics and former members, but if so than perhaps you should consider just as I and others appear to have misread you  according to you, you may be misreading others and assuming bitterness, etc where there is none. 

At this point I have to call for examples of the things I have bolded in relation to my posts.

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

At this point I have to call for examples of the things I have bolded in relation to my posts.

It was the purpose of your post, thanking those who had left for pushing others to study.

It was more of what was missing, any empathy for the struggles of those who had left and their loved ones coupled with what appeared to me as malicious delight, gloating even that they had left because that way others were pushed.

People don’t generally thank people for leaving their community unless they don’t like them….or they are trying to protect themselves from feeling hurt by the rejection.  Turning it into something that is seen as wonderful  reads as the mirrored mechanism as “sour grapes”; instead of ‘I don’t want this because it’s probably bad anyway’, it is “I love this because it’s probably wonderful!”

Again, I am not saying that is what you actually meant.  I read it that way because of my experience with others, not because of my experiences with you, so I do not assume this is a corrected reading.

And that is why I wonder if you can consider how using the fruits analogy, some will condemn what you say as lack of actual happiness fruits.

Edited March 28, 2024 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

It was the purpose of your post, thanking those who had left for pushing others to study.

It was more of what was missing, any empathy for the struggles of those who had left and their loved ones coupled with what appeared to me as delight that they had left because that way others were pushed.

I think you need to read ALL my posts in this thread.

Addendum: I have much sympathy for those who sincerely struggle and esp. their family members, having put my parental figure through that.

Those who life's mission is to attack the Church... not so much. As I don't excuse my own previous behavior.

Edited March 28, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving