Women are given priesthood power and authority

[JAHS]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Who wants to have the title of "Bishop"?  Neither men nor women would want that extra 40 hour per week job, if they understood it well.

Men sometimes jokingly give their "condolences" to new bishops, but women, apparently aspire to have that calling.  Aspiring to have a specific calling is usually frowned upon..

I once knew a very active faithful member of the church who never wore a suit and tie to the meetings and sat in the back of the chapel. He said he did that so he would not be called to be a Bishop. 🙂 

[Calm]

Priesthood isn’t only being the bishop.

Do either of you painting the position of being bishop as something undesired feel that way about the Priesthood itself?  
 

If the Priesthood itself is valued, is it valued enough that the sacrifices of being bishop is worth it in your view?

[Calm]

It would seem Priesthood is a highly valued prize in scripture.

Quote

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

—-

Quote

once knew a very active faithful member of the church who never wore a suit and tie to the meetings and sat in the back of the chapel. He said he did that so he would not be called to be a Bishop.

 

And what scripture figure does this remind you of?  Abraham?

Or perhaps more like Jonah at the beginning of his calling to Nineveh?

——-

What would you think of someone who bragged about how they plan to turn down a scholarship to MIT because it is just too much work in front of those who know they will never have the choice to go to MIT even if they had enough money to pay for it themselves?  Or who chose to do such complaining in front of the President of MIT, who was attempting to make the school the best ever?

I wonder what God thinks of those who trash the calling of Bishop as too hard, undesirable, etc.

I wonder how black young men and men felt when they heard this coming from those who might be someday or were, or had been bishops prior to 1978.

How do you think men who are unable to receive the MP but desired it much feel when they hear things like this?

Edited March 22, 2024 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Who wants to have the title of "Bishop"?

This rebuttal is overused imo. 
Look, I don’t wanna be HOA president. Ever. In fact, let’s take this down to I don’t ever want to attend an HOA meeting. Under any circumstance. But if somebody said I couldn’t attend an HOA meeting because of my gender, I would do what I could to change that rule. 

I don’t understand why this is a difficult difficult concept. 

[MustardSeed]

7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This rebuttal is overused imo. 
Look, I don’t wanna be HOA president. Ever. In fact, let’s take this down to I don’t ever want to attend an HOA meeting. Under any circumstance. But if somebody said I couldn’t attend an HOA meeting because of my gender, I would do what I could to change that rule. 

I don’t understand why this is a difficult difficult concept. 

Also fwiw I have known many bishops who, while the task is challenging, get a significant sense of meaning, blessings, satisfaction, fulfillment, etc. from being a bishop. I’ve known some men to lament the fact that they have never had the opportunity. I understand the sentiment of never wanting to be one (I do enough of that business in my paid job and it’s hard) But that’s a separate issue imo. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

but women, apparently aspire to have that calling. 

You really really just don’t want to get it do you? There is a difference between aspiring to a calling and aspiring to have a woman in said calling as an example and leader. 

[bluebell]

56 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 

We are here to serve the Lord, and imo, that is all we need to be doing.

 

 

Some women want to be able to serve the Lord in the same way that men are able to serve the Lord.  Is that a sin in your view?

[bluebell]

59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I have been thinking about counter positions to the logic presented in this thread.

How does one deal with the following argument?

Every person who has a calling is ACTING WITH PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY.

EVERYONE is selected for the position by priesthood authority, "as was Aaron".

EVERYONE is set apart by the laying on of hands, and blessed and CALLED to perform priesthood duties by priesthood authorities.

This is from the prophet on down.

No one does anything in the church WITHOUT priesthood authority.

Can we at least agree to that?

I don't see why others don't see that.  It's not complicated unless you want to make it so.

From the prophet to the greeter, everyone is acting with and under priesthood authority.

I would think defining the error in the above italicized paragraph would be step one in a rational discussion of the subject.

I don't see how it is even debatable.

What the heck are we even discussing?  Can anyone define it better, please?

No, women presently do not have an abstract, indefinable "thing" called "priesthood", yet the belief that both men and women are selected to act on behalf of what the Lord, we believe, wants them to be doing in his church.

Who wants to have the title of "Bishop"?  Neither men nor women would want that extra 40 hour per week job, if they understood it well.

Men sometimes jokingly give their "condolences" to new bishops, but women, apparently aspire to have that calling.  Aspiring to have a specific calling is usually frowned upon....

We are here to serve the Lord, and imo, that is all we need to be doing.

How does one justify their position against those who might argue this way?

 

Everything that is said about how much work the calling of Bishop is could also be said about having a child.  And many in this world feel and believe that having a child is worth condolences.  

Is how much work something is a measure of its value?

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Some women want to be able to serve the Lord in the same way that men are able to serve the Lord.  Is that a sin in your view?

And women have a lot of insight that may be taken more serious in authorized positions that were once held by men, or not, but have enough authority that will be conducive to their opinions or even revelations of some sort, to lead. Women's voices take a back seat, or have been for eon's. Maybe make that fact change to equalize. 

Editing to add, that many in the US seem to think women couldn't handle the presidency of the US. It's too bad, since we've seen great women presidents of so many countries but never in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elected_and_appointed_female_heads_of_state_and_government

Edited March 22, 2024 by Tacenda

[Smiley McGee]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

 

I have been thinking about counter positions to the logic presented in this thread.

How does one deal with the following argument?

Every person who has a calling is ACTING WITH PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY.

EVERYONE is selected for the position by priesthood authority, "as was Aaron".

EVERYONE is set apart by the laying on of hands, and blessed and CALLED to perform priesthood duties by priesthood authorities.

This is from the prophet on down.

No one does anything in the church WITHOUT priesthood authority.

Can we at least agree to that?

I don't see why others don't see that.  It's not complicated unless you want to make it so.

From the prophet to the greeter, everyone is acting with and under priesthood authority.

I would think defining the error in the above italicized paragraph would be step one in a rational discussion of the subject.

I don't see how it is even debatable.

 

Gee, why didn’t all the women think of this? Being a ward greeter really is like being the prophet. It’s like what I tell our underpaid staff at work: “you’re just like the CEO; you’re both authorized to work here.” 

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You really really just don’t want to get it do you? There is a difference between aspiring to a calling and aspiring to have a woman in said calling as an example and leader. 

What's the difference between aspiring for a calling and aspiring to be an example?

 You seem to never get my points, and I don't get yours.

You are FOR aspiring to be an example, but NOT aspiring for a calling.

I aspire to be president of the USA as an example, but not for the job, or what I will do if elected.

Would such a statement get one elected?

Difference please?

I believe firmly in the beliefs of Relief Society, yet I will never be  member.

I am barred from membership.

Trust me, I get it all, BUT I constantly consider the merits of arguments.

That's what PhiloFolks do!

I am testing arguments by proving their contraries- isn't that what Joseph told us to do?

Opposition in all things!  Dialectical reasoning!  Socrates. Hegel. Even Marx.!

I am not sure we will ever be on the same page.

 

[mfbukowski]

39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Some women want to be able to serve the Lord in the same way that men are able to serve the Lord.  Is that a sin in your view?

I aspire to be compassionate service leader.  We are all lacking in that area, and could do better.  I would like to work on how to improve that for myself and the whole ward.

Is THAT a sin?

 

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Everything that is said about how much work the calling of Bishop is could also be said about having a child.  And many in this world feel and believe that having a child is worth condolences.  

Is how much work something is a measure of its value?

When I hear this line of thinking I always think back to my experience when I really wanted a child. We were talking to a couple who told us to be grateful we didn't have one yet because having a baby would keep us up at night. It really bothered me to be told I wouldn't want a blessing because of the difficulties that came with it. 

I don't regret for a minute having my children despite the difficulty and not wanting more.  There was and is great joy in being a mom. I can't imagine telling someone who couldn't have children to "be glad you can't because it's hard".

Be glad you weren't chosen to go to earth to have a body because it feels pain and you have to exercise.

Be glad God won't provide you with food because you have to cook it. 

Be glad we won't allow you to have a car because you have to pay insurance.

 

 

[Rain]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I aspire to be compassionate service leader.  We are all lacking in that area, and could do better.  I would like to work on how to improve that for myself and the whole ward.

Is THAT a sin?

 

No, not a sin, but it also not related to the topic. Edit: I didn't catch that this was about a calling until I pressed submit.  But there is nothing stopping men from being compassionate service leaders. It would just be in the EQ or ward level though those are basically the same level.

Edited March 22, 2024 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Everything that is said about how much work the calling of Bishop is could also be said about having a child.  And many in this world feel and believe that having a child is worth condolences.  

Is how much work something is a measure of its value?

If I asked this, what would you say?

"Everything that is said about how much work the raising of a child could also be said about being a Bishop.  And many in this world feel and believe that being called as bishop is worth condolences.  

Is how much work something is a measure of its value?"

How would you reply? 

No, but what's the point here?

Digging dirt all day has to be one of the hardest jobs, but as a measure of its value, most would find digging dirt has less value for humanity than being president.

And so....?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What's the difference between aspiring for a calling and aspiring to be an example?

Read what I said? I’d say most women don’t want to be a bishop, but they would love to have a woman (who isn’t themself) as a bishop. See the difference? An example for their sons and daughters to look up to. 

[mfbukowski]

Ok guys and dolls, 😳😲 have fun.

Speaking of dolls, the video "NEW YORK DOLLS" is a must see for all LDS folks.

It isn't what it sounds like it would be.

GREAT and inspiring!

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Read what I said? I’d say most women don’t want to be a bishop, but they would love to have a woman (who isn’t themself) as a bishop. See the difference? An example for their sons and daughters to look up to. 

But Relief Society presidents are not?  NOW who is talking about.... uh, anatomy.

Just not a good argument imo.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Men sometimes jokingly give their "condolences" to new bishops, but women, apparently aspire to have that calling.  Aspiring to have a specific calling is usually frowned upon....

Come on. You know as well as I do that men, to one degree or another, aspire to leadership callings.

[juliann]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What's the difference between aspiring for a calling and aspiring to be an example?

 You seem to never get my points, and I don't get yours.

You are FOR aspiring to be an example, but NOT aspiring for a calling.

I aspire to be president of the USA as an example, but not for the job, or what I will do if elected.

Would such a statement get one elected?

Difference please?

I believe firmly in the beliefs of Relief Society, yet I will never be  member.

I am barred from membership.

Trust me, I get it all, BUT I constantly consider the merits of arguments.

That's what PhiloFolks do!

I am testing arguments by proving their contraries- isn't that what Joseph told us to do?

Opposition in all things!  Dialectical reasoning!  Socrates. Hegel. Even Marx.!

I am not sure we will ever be on the same page.

 

That only works when those "tests" haven't been overdone and amply refuted. It is no different than anti-Mormons who never bother to read the arguments put out by academics. You don't need to understand it if that is too difficult. You do need to acknowledge the existence and merits of an argument.

This approach sounds no different than the men who insist cat calling is a compliment or telling women to smile is a help to them.  That time has passed and it didn't end well for those men.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Read what I said? I’d say most women don’t want to be a bishop, but they would love to have a woman (who isn’t themself) as a bishop. See the difference? An example for their sons and daughters to look up to. 

Spot on!

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

But Relief Society presidents are not?  NOW who is talking about.... uh, anatomy.

Just not a good argument imo.

RS President seems to not equate with being bishop so I'm not understanding. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

I once knew a very active faithful member of the church who never wore a suit and tie to the meetings and sat in the back of the chapel. He said he did that so he would not be called to be a Bishop. 🙂 

I’ve heard enough faux humble expressions of not wanting to be a Bishop from people who wanted to be Bishop to be dubious.

I was simultaneously almost ready to be done with working in the temple and annoyed that I aged out and was automatically released. This isn’t a hard concept.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But Relief Society presidents are not?  NOW who is talking about.... uh, anatomy.

Just not a good argument imo.

Exactly.  The Relief Society president is not the equivalent of the Bishop in a ward.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was simultaneously almost ready to be done with working in the temple and annoyed that I aged out and was automatically released. This isn’t a hard concept.

I think that many people want to know that God believes they are capable of serving in certain callings, that God trusts them with heavy responsibilities and difficult but necessary tasks, while also not actually wanting difficult callings.  I think there are blessings that come from service like that that are not easy to get other ways. 

The idea that women don't recognize that leadership callings can be incredibly hard, or that they only want them for sinful reasons, completely misses the point of what women are saying (and is also derogatory).