Women are given priesthood power and authority

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Exactly.  The Relief Society president is not the equivalent of the Bishop in a ward.

Oddly there are only two callings which have each individual person in the ward in their direct  responsibility.

Wanna guess?  Don't read on.

 

One is the Bishop, 

And the other is....

the Sunday School President!

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The idea that women don't recognize that leadership callings can be incredibly hard, or that they only want them for sinful reasons, completely misses the point of what women are saying (and is also derogatory).

I agree but I see no one here taking that position 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oddly there are only two callings which have each individual person in the ward in their direct  responsibility.

Wanna guess?  Don't read on.

 

One is the Bishop, 

Yes

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And the other is....

the Sunday School President!

No.  He is not over primary children.

However, Elder Quorems President sort of is depending on how you look at it.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

Come on. You know as well as I do that men, to one degree or another, aspire to leadership callings.

I, honestly, do not know that at all.

  I knew one guy who wanted his SON, when he grew up, to be a bishop, mostly meaning that he wanted his son to become a "good man" but never a conversation or statement about it otherwise.

 

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Rain said:

No.  He is not over primary children.

🤔

If they are under baptism age, they are not yet "members of the ward". I guess they are tiny "investigators"

 

[Rain]

46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

🤔

If they are under baptism age, they are not yet "members of the ward". I guess they are tiny "investigators"

 

That is not how the church sees them.  And even if it did there are still children 8-10.5.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I, honestly, do not know that at all.

  I knew one guy who wanted his SON, when he grew up, to be a bishop, mostly meaning that he wanted his son to become a "good man" but never a conversation or statement about it otherwise.

 

That is because we all lie about it.😁

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

That is not how the church sees them.  And even if it did there are still children 8-10.5.

Ok you win! ❤ 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

That is because we all lie about it.😁

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox

😳

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:35 PM, JAHS said:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/power-of-covenant-keeping-women-celebrated-during-worldwide-relief-society-anniversary-devotional

"Sister Dennis (First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency)said she knows of no other religious organization in the world that has so broadly given power and authority to women. “All women 18 years and older in the Church of Jesus Christ who choose a covenant relationship with God in the house of the Lord are endowed with priesthood power directly from God. "

“And as we serve in whatever calling or assignment, including ministering assignments, we are given priesthood authority to carry out those responsibilities. My dear sisters, you belong to a Church which offers all its women priesthood power and authority from God,” 

I understand having priesthood authority to perform certain callings (especially in the Temple) but where does the priesthood power come in to play? I guess it depends on how one defines "power"

I once asked the question, do women, or can they have, or hold the Priesthood? An elderly sister said (to our Sunday School class, “women are given certain powers while working via certain functions in the Temple. As far as myself having it, I lost it when my husband of 56 years died. 

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Ok you win! ❤ 

 

I appreciate your parts of this discussion mfb, very much.  I just wanted to say that Rain isn't trying to win anything, she's correcting an incorrect statement is all. 

You said that the Sunday School president had responsibility for all members of the ward but that isn't accurate because the primary president is actually over all kids in the ward, aged 18 months to 11 years old.  The SS president doesn't deal with anyone until they turn are in the year that they are turning 12.

To add to this line of discussion and speaking for myself, I don't know how helpful it is to compare the SS president with the Bishop, since the SS president's authority and responsibility only deals with "overseeing efforts to improve gospel learning and teaching at home and at church.  Organizing Sunday School classes, with the bishopric’s approval, and recommending to the bishopric adult members to serve as Sunday School teachers."  He also attends ward council meetings as a representative of the SS and "Supports, encourages, and instructs Sunday School teachers."

He's not really responsible for the membership in any meaningful way.  He's responsible for helping to keep gospel learning in the home and at church meaningful and useful and for helping the SS teachers, but he's not responsible for the members themselves.

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I appreciate your parts of this discussion mfb, very much.  I just wanted to say that Rain isn't trying to win anything, she's correcting an incorrect statement is all. 

As are you.  Thanks!

Edited March 23, 2024 by mfbukowski

[JAHS]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I appreciate your parts of this discussion mfb, very much.  I just wanted to say that Rain isn't trying to win anything, she's correcting an incorrect statement is all. 

You said that the Sunday School president had responsibility for all members of the ward but that isn't accurate because the primary president is actually over all kids in the ward, aged 18 months to 11 years old.  The SS president doesn't deal with anyone until they turn are in the year that they are turning 12.

To add to this line of discussion and speaking for myself, I don't know how helpful it is to compare the SS president with the Bishop, since the SS president's authority and responsibility only deals with "overseeing efforts to improve gospel learning and teaching at home and at church.  Organizing Sunday School classes, with the bishopric’s approval, and recommending to the bishopric adult members to serve as Sunday School teachers."  He also attends ward council meetings as a representative of the SS and "Supports, encourages, and instructs Sunday School teachers."

He's not really responsible for the membership in any meaningful way.  He's responsible for helping to keep gospel learning in the home and at church meaningful and useful and for helping the SS teachers, but he's not responsible for the members themselves.

I would say in terms of responsibility for the well-being of all the ward members, the top 3 positions would be the Bishop, Relief Society president, and the Elder's quorum president.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

I would say in terms of responsibility for the well-being of all the ward members, the top 3 positions would be the Bishop, Relief Society president, and the Elder's quorum president.

I agree. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

I would say in terms of responsibility for the well-being of all the ward members, the top 3 positions would be the Bishop, Relief Society president, and the Elder's quorum president.

Never questioned.

I could go on, but I am done.

Edited March 24, 2024 by mfbukowski

[telnetd]

On 3/21/2024 at 4:24 PM, JAHS said:

President Joseph Fielding Smith, quoting from his father, said:

"Does a wife hold the priesthood with her husband, and may she lay hands on the sick with him, with authority? A wife does not hold the priesthood with her husband, but she enjoys the benefits thereof with him; and if she is requested to lay hands on the sick with him, she may do so with perfect propriety."
When this is done the wife is adding her faith to the administration of her husband. The wife would lay on hands just as would a member of the Aaronic Priesthood, or a faithful brother without the Priesthood, she in this manner giving support by faith to the ordinance performed by her husband. (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-56], 3:177.)

Sounds like a woman is nothing without the man.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Sounds like a woman is nothing without the man.

Only if one is giving a blessing using the priesthood. Otherwise the man is also nothing without the woman. 
“Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11:11.)

[telnetd]

On 3/24/2024 at 2:23 PM, JAHS said:

Only if one is giving a blessing using the priesthood. Otherwise the man is also nothing without the woman. 
“Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11:11.)

What ordinances can a man perform without a female present?

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, telnetd said:

What ordinances can a man perform without a female present?

The washing and anointing in the temple.

[Rain]

19 minutes ago, telnetd said:

What ordinances can a man perform without a female present?

All of them except for sealings.

Edit: maybe endowment as well needs a female, but if I understand right about the most recent changes, maybe not? 

Edited March 26, 2024 by Rain

[BlueDreams]

52 minutes ago, Rain said:

All of them except for sealings.

Edit: maybe endowment as well needs a female, but if I understand right about the most recent changes, maybe not? 

You would still need women for the true order of prayer, which needs an equal amount of men and women. Even with the most recent changes, that's still a thing. When I was a worker, if there were not enough women in the session, they'd ask us to fill in at this part to complete the session. I haven't gone to a ton of endowment sessions post changes, but from what I could see they called men and women and if there was an uneven number to volunteer, they would ask for the needed amount of men or women to fill the gaps. 

So you wouldn't be able to complete an endowment ceremony, even with the most recent changes. 

And symbolically it wouldn't work/make sense, even with the new changes. It's strongly about bringing the two genders together and in an alignment that expands the work of God through said ordering. 

The aspects that can be done without women are the preparatory aspects of the endowment for the men: the initiatory and new name ceremony. And obviously baptism, the GoHG, and Sacrament can be done without women present. 

All higher ordinances though entail and need both men and women to function. And since you need both and initiatory/new name are preparatory ordinances for the endowments, you can't have a functioning ordinance without the women's side being done as well. Which makes the work of the matrons and female temple workers (particularly ordinance workers) essential. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Rain]

8 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

You would still need women for the true order of prayer, which needs an equal amount of men and women. Even with the most recent changes, that's still a thing. When I was a worker, if there were not enough women in the session, they'd ask us to fill in at this part to complete the session. I haven't gone to a ton of endowment sessions post changes, but from what I could see they called men and women and if there was an uneven number to volunteer, they would ask for the needed amount of men or women to fill the gaps. 

So you wouldn't be able to complete an endowment ceremony, even with the most recent changes. 

And symbolically it wouldn't work/make sense, even with the new changes. It's strongly about bringing the two genders together and in an alignment that expands the work of God through said ordering. 

The aspects that can be done without women are the preparatory aspects of the endowment for the men: the initiatory and new name ceremony. And obviously baptism, the GoHG, and Sacrament can be done without women present. 

All higher ordinances though entail and need both men and women to function. And since you need both and initiatory/new name are preparatory ordinances for the endowments, you can't have a functioning ordinance without the women's side being done as well. Which makes the work of the matrons and female temple workers (particularly ordinance workers) essential. 

 

With luv,

BD

Ahh. Thanks.  

[Damien the Leper]

On 3/20/2024 at 9:32 PM, Calm said:

Since it’s their worship service, it makes sense for them to adopt what enhances the spirit for them.  

Everything done during the Mass has a reason and purpose. Just because one doesn't "feel it" where spirituality is concerned is of no importance. The individuals who espouse such an opinion are likely very ignorant of High Church symbology. 

[Damien the Leper]

On 3/21/2024 at 6:28 AM, MiserereNobis said:

This is quite the judgement of the heart and intentions of people who attend high church services. I’m calling you out on it. 

 

On 3/21/2024 at 6:33 AM, MiserereNobis said:

And you get even worse. Non LDS ritual is for show and outward appearance and doesn’t have spiritual meaning or purpose?

Who are you to judge what non LDS ritual means to those who participate in it?

You must have liked that “playing church” comment guy. 

Quite the slap to the face of us High Church heathens, right?

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Damien the Leper said:

On 3/20/2024 at 9:32 PM, Calm said:

Since it’s their worship service, it makes sense for them to adopt what enhances the spirit for them.  

Everything done during the Mass has a reason and purpose. Just because one doesn't "feel it" where spirituality is concerned is of no importance. The individuals who espouse such an opinion are likely very ignorant of High Church symbology. 

That probably applies to me. Such ceremonies of other faiths don't do it FOR ME, because I am ignorant of the symbology. I do understand how it can be a very spiritual thing for those who have lived with and understand it better than I do.