Church purchasing land in Nebraska

[Kenngo1969]

@awyatt,

Nice to Cyber-see you, Sir.  Would that you graced us with your presence more often!

Warm Regards and Best Wishes,

Kenngo1969

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Heh.  Just thinking about the concept of a “communist citizen”.  
 

Kind of like “damp fire” or “indigenous alien”.  Closer would be “libertarian comrade”.  

China is more authoritarian crony capitalism with a bunch of government owned utility and transportation companies and some arcane land lease laws so they can pretend they are still striving for communism.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, awyatt said:

The data about landholdings could be correct; it may not be correct. We have no way of knowing.

If only there was an organization that was committed to operating in a transparent manner that could shed light on the situation. 

[Analytics]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:09 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

The decision to assume the church is lying when it explicitly states it made the purchase “to generate long-term value to support the Church’s religious, charitable, and humanitarian good works,” is also your choice.   

And for the record, that isn’t a choice I made. I’m sure they are “generating long-term value” (I.e. making as much money as possible and building up the size of the Church’s commercial investment portfolio as much as possible) to “support the Church’s religious, charitable, and humanitarian good works.”

That doesn’t change the fact that the relationship between how much income they deploy to increase the size of the commercial assets and how much they deploy on the Church’s religious, charitable, and humanitarian missions now is way out of balance. 

As @smac97 has correctly said, spending so much money in a responsible, effective manner is very, very difficult. In contrast, investing it in stocks, bonds, and real estate is relatively easy. So rather than tackling the hard problem, they take the easy route and focus on making more money. But the bigger their asset portfolio becomes, the harder it becomes to increase spending to an appropriate level.

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

way out of balance. 

Sez you and lots of people, but at the end of the day, sez you.  The church doesn't bow to other people's industry standards, or accepted best practices of secular thinking.  

Edited November 23, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Sez you and lots of people, but at the end of the day, sez you.  The church doesn't bow to other people's industry standards, or accepted best practices of secular thinking.  

No evil laugh at the end of this post?

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Sez you and lots of people, but at the end of the day, sez you. 

Such a mdless vapid response.

20 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

 

The church doesn't bow to other people's industry standards, or accepted best practices of secular thinking.  

Obviously.  I don't know that @Analyticsclaims the church does. Nor do I?  But when such typical best practices and benchmarks are ignored don't cry when or whine foul when most people view the Church as a greedy corporate entity rather than a Church that claims to be The One True Church and Church of Jesus Christ.  One more focused on amassing wealth than using its massive resources to relieve human suffering.  Don't whine about being a persecuted religious minority. You look fairly ridiculous when you do so.

[mfbukowski]

33 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Such a mdless vapid response.

Obviously.  I don't know that @Analyticsclaims the church does. Nor do I?  But when such typical best practices and benchmarks are ignored don't cry when or whine foul when most people view the Church as a greedy corporate entity rather than a Church that claims to be The One True Church and Church of Jesus Christ.  One more focused on amassing wealth than using its massive resources to relieve human suffering.  Don't whine about being a persecuted religious minority. You look fairly ridiculous when you do so.

Agree-ish.

It's our constant horrible PR which make us "Mormons" instead of "The Church of Jesus Christ".

Pres. Nelson hit a home run in returning to the original name, I hope it sticks.  Simplifying the temple presentation so anyone could understand it, I think helped too, but meh. Maybe lost more content than won deep understanding.

But the world still does see us as a cult.

Most LDS people in Utah still don't get it, but the sunrise can take time to hit in them deep valleys !

Gotta push the PR, but t's gonna be a tough wagon to push up them mountains!

Edited November 24, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Thinking]

On 11/22/2023 at 8:37 AM, smac97 said:

I wonder if this estimate is correct.  That would be about 2,656 square miles, a bit larger than the State of Delaware.

Delaware is not very big.

BTW 2,656 square miles is about 51.5 miles by 51.5 miles. When you think about all the meeting houses and temples (and their parking lots), that estimate seams reasonable.

[Stormin' Mormon]

On 11/23/2023 at 11:34 AM, Analytics said:

So rather than tackling the hard problem, they take the easy route and focus on making more money. 

I'm not sure we can actually conclude this.

First, I think we have evidence that they are tackling this, even if they haven't gotten to the point where the challenge has been definitively tackled. We know that the Church has greatly increased its charitable outlays in the last few years, and the presiding bishopric has forecasted that those outlays will continue to increase.

Second, the amount of resources spent on an activity is not evidence of "focus," especially if we define "focus" to be more about mental energy. I suspect that the presiding bishopric is very focused on those charitable outlays, but that takes a lot of energy, will, and attention. The easy stuff, as you say, is easy. It's automatic, it requires no real thought or attention. It does not require their focus. Twenty percent of their activity could easily require 80% of their focus.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm not sure we can actually conclude this.

First, I think we have evidence that they are tackling this, even if they haven't gotten to the point where the challenge has been definitively tackled. We know that the Church has greatly increased its charitable outlays in the last few years, and the presiding bishopric has forecasted that those outlays will continue to increase.

Second, the amount of resources spent on an activity is not evidence of "focus," especially if we define "focus" to be more about mental energy. I suspect that the presiding bishopric is very focused on those charitable outlays, but that takes a lot of energy, will, and attention. The easy stuff, as you say, is easy. It's automatic, it requires no real thought or attention. It does not require their focus. Twenty percent of their activity could easily require 80% of their focus.

Stomin' Mormon (or as you are today  ) Do you think the church is going to build a huge city or something like they are supposedly going to do in Florida? If so how do you think Nebraska residents will feel? I don't know how good I would feel selling property to the LDS church, not knowing what will end up on it.

ETA: I wonder if they'll have missionaries being ranch hands.

https://flatwaterfreepress.org/whos-buying-nebraska-after-shopping-spree-mormon-church-is-top-land-purchaser/

Edited November 25, 2023 by Tacenda

[LoudmouthMormon]

22 hours ago, Teancum said:

On 11/23/2023 at 2:12 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Sez you and lots of people, but at the end of the day, sez you. 

Such a mdless vapid response.

Disagree.  I figure it's just the response you don't like.  But it's the church's and I'm guessing most of it's members' response nonetheless.

And it's our same response to many things.   Same sex marriage, with it's overwhelming cultural acceptance, the studies, the life stories, the global wave of acceptance?  Meh.  We're not bending on what we believe our God wants us to do.  We're doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on the Proclamation on the Family.  Neither you nor the rest of the world gets to tell us how to Mormon.

Same with tithing.  So every charitable org out there with their boards of directors and reporting to the govt and @Analytics's place of work all figure "Give 5% of your endowment to some other charity"?  Meh.  Scripture says a tenth of your increase, and common sense born through decades of near-bankruptcy tell us we're just gonna invest that money.  We're laying up stores against the season.   You can keep your world's best practices.  Neither you nor the rest of the world gets to tell us how to Mormon.

You can call it mindless and vapid if you like.  From where I'm standing, it looks principled, dedicated, well-thought-out, good stewardship. 

[mfbukowski]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:37 AM, smac97 said:

Who’s Buying Nebraska? After shopping spree, Mormon church is top land purchaser

Wow.  370,000 acres is about 578 square miles (for comparison, Davis County, Utah is 634 square miles).

This is a reasonable complaint.

Perhaps this is as much of a "win-win" as can be hoped for.

I wonder if this estimate is correct.  That would be about 2,656 square miles, a bit larger than the State of Delaware.

Thanks,

-Smac

Kansas and Missouri adjacent.

Why would they want land there, in the center of the US?

Gosh, a few hand carts or bikes and you could get there from about anywhere......  totally useless....  😉

Edited November 25, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

53 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Kansas and Missouri adjacent.

Why would they want land there, in the center of the US?

Gosh, a few hand carts or bikes and you could get there from about anywhere......  totally useless....

My daughter works for their real estate arm and this morning came for a visit while my son from Boise was visiting and she mentioned that the church is building homes to rent areas and it's big, maybe they'll do that in Nebraska.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My daughter works for their real estate arm and this morning came for a visit while my son from Boise was visiting and she mentioned that the church is building homes to rent areas and it's big, maybe they'll do that in Nebraska.

👍

[Diamondhands69]

Maybe the church is going to get into raising corn to sell to whiskey distillers??

there is huge money in whiskey these days. 
 

https://daily.sevenfifty.com/the-state-of-the-whiskey-market/#:~:text=Estimated to be a %2466.5,over the past 10 years.

 

after all, Mormon farmers supply a large percentage of hops and barley to the beer industry. 
 

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-abstinent-mormon-farmers-grow-barley-for-beer-2010sep08-story.html

 

this kind of business is not unknown to the church 

https://www.utahhumanities.org/stories/items/show/224

[Analytics]

On 11/23/2023 at 3:12 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Sez you and lots of people, but at the end of the day, sez you. 

Yep.

On 11/23/2023 at 3:12 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

The church doesn't bow to other people's industry standards, or accepted best practices of secular thinking.  

Obviously.

[Tacenda]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

👎 Thumbs down on the church building these in Nebraska and taking land from farmers who would like to compete with the church in buying the land. If that's the plan, I'm guessing about that. But the church wields the wealth and cuts out the entire population that can't afford or even come close to being able to compete, even the very wealthy. That's what kind of behemoth the church is . IMO, the church is a monster as far as this goes. I bet God isn't happy at all.

I guess I'm perplexed why you gave me a thumbs up and took a guess that it was that the church might be building these type of homes in Nebraska. But you may have given a thumbs up for another reason. 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Tacenda

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

👎 Thumbs down on the church building these in Nebraska and taking land from farmers who would like to compete with the church in buying the land. 

 

Constructing "these?" You speculated, with no evidence whatsoever, that the Church might use this land to construct rental properties, as they are doing in the Salt Lake metro area. And then you give them a thumbs down for doing this thing that there's no evidence that they are doing?

The county where all this land was purchased has a population of under 2,000 people. I would fall off my chair in utter surprise if this land is going to be developed into any sort of housing, any sort of development requiring urban infrastructure.

The church has a reputation for developing parallel supply chains for food and other essentials. It's not just the end of the world they are preparing for; it's also for more anodyne disasters. If earthquakes, floods, or tornadoes cut off regular shipping routes, the Church had a dispersed network of food production centers that can ensure that the localized disaster doesn't escalate into famine.

There's (likely) no greater plan at work here than that. Church leaders are not rubbing their hands and cackling about the fortune they're gonna make on this land deal. They're not gonna develop it and turn a profit; they're just gonna farm it as it was farmed under its previous owner.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Constructing "these?" You speculated, with no evidence whatsoever, that the Church might use this land to construct rental properties, as they are doing in the Salt Lake metro area. And then you give them a thumbs down for doing this thing that there's no evidence that they are doing?

The county where all this land was purchased has a population of under 2,000 people. I would fall off my chair in utter surprise if this land is going to be developed into any sort of housing, any sort of development requiring urban infrastructure.

The church has a reputation for developing parallel supply chains for food and other essentials. It's not just the end of the world they are preparing for; it's also for more anodyne disasters. If earthquakes, floods, or tornadoes cut off regular shipping routes, the Church had a dispersed network of food production centers that can ensure that the localized disaster doesn't escalate into famine.

There's (likely) no greater plan at work here than that. Church leaders are not rubbing their hands and cackling about the fortune they're gonna make on this land deal. They're not gonna develop it and turn a profit; they're just gonna farm it as it was farmed under its previous owner.

The last sentence is guessing like me. My thumbs down was that those people of lesser means in the town have no chance against the church in bidding for land.

[Stormin' Mormon]

45 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The last sentence is guessing like me. My thumbs down was that those people of lesser means in the town have no chance against the church in bidding for land.

Oh, I am absolutely guessing about the Church's intentions. But I am not guessing about the development potential of the land. The infrastructure and population to support even a modestly-sized residential development just isn't there. As a point of contrast, the land the Church is developing for residential use in Florida is within (or near the margins of) the greater Orlando metro area. Tons of developmental potential and pressure on those lands.

The alternative to the Church owning this land isn't small landowners of lesser means doing so. There are too many large players in this arena, including the largest owners of farmland acreage in the US, Bill Gates and Ted Turner. If the market price for farm acreage is beyond the ability of small landowners to purchase, it wasn't because the Church bid up the value of the land. 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Oh, I am absolutely guessing about the Church's intentions. But I am not guessing about the development potential of the land. The infrastructure and population to support even a modestly-sized residential development just isn't there. As a point of contrast, the land the Church is developing for residential use in Florida is within (or near the margins of) the greater Orlando metro area. Tons of developmental potential and pressure on those lands.

The alternative to the Church owning this land isn't small landowners of lesser means doing so. There are too many large players in this arena, including the largest owners of farmland acreage in the US, Bill Gates and Ted Turner. If the market price for farm acreage is beyond the ability of small landowners to purchase, it wasn't because the Church bid up the value of the land. 

 

If they will build it they will come?

[sunstoned]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:39 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Disagree.  I figure it's just the response you don't like.  But it's the church's and I'm guessing most of it's members' response nonetheless.

And it's our same response to many things.   Same sex marriage, with it's overwhelming cultural acceptance, the studies, the life stories, the global wave of acceptance?  Meh.  We're not bending on what we believe our God wants us to do.  We're doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on the Proclamation on the Family.  Neither you nor the rest of the world gets to tell us how to Mormon.

Same with tithing.  So every charitable org out there with their boards of directors and reporting to the govt and @Analytics's place of work all figure "Give 5% of your endowment to some other charity"?  Meh.  Scripture says a tenth of your increase, and common sense born through decades of near-bankruptcy tell us we're just gonna invest that money.  We're laying up stores against the season.   You can keep your world's best practices.  Neither you nor the rest of the world gets to tell us how to Mormon.

You can call it mindless and vapid if you like.  From where I'm standing, it looks principled, dedicated, well-thought-out, good stewardship. 

As far as tithing goes...

"but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God. I want to live to see that day, if the Lord will spare my life. It does not make any difference, though, so far as that is concerned, whether I live or not. That is the true policy, the true purpose of the Lord in the management of the affairs of His Church."

April 1907 LDS General Conference, Joseph F. Smith -

I'm wondering where this day will come.  Or maybe Prophet JFS was just speaking as a man.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 11/26/2023 at 3:28 PM, Tacenda said:

If they will build it they will come?

I can tell you this with absolute certainty

If we don't build it there won't a place to come TO.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

wondering where this day will come.  Or maybe Prophet JFS was just speaking as a man.

 

I think this needs to be consistent with the rest of what he taught….which to be open, I don’t know, but I would be very surprised if he did not see tithing as a commandment from the Lord. 

I think here he is referring to the need of the Church where they had to make appeals over and over again for members to make outright donations as well as to pay tithing, not just because of the blessings that come to the member for being obedient to God, but because the Church was in debt again and needed the help, desperately at times. 

And as far as the other donations outside of tithing, we no longer pay budget or building or all of a missionary’s costs.  Several humanitarian projects are self sustaining these days as well (the Temple Patron Fund and the Perpetual Education Fund no longer are listed though people can donate to them still unless there have been more recent changes).  We no longer have constant fundraising activities for building and activities for youth, etc., which added a lot of additional costs in terms of time and resources even if personal funds weren’t donated (which they were in many cases like baking sales/auctions).

Missionaries who cannot support themselves or can’t be supported by family or the local ward and stake are given stipends and iirc in some cases where they contributed to the support of their family, families are given stipends as well (I read this years ago and it was in an obscure place, someone telling of personal experience, so I can't document it; therefore take it as a possibility only please unless confirmed by something more reliable than memory).

Even garments are subsidized by the Church so they can be more affordable (my memory says they were offering them at cost, but Pres Hinckley has them cut the price in half and they have not jumped up much since then).

Overall, requests from the Church for donations of time, money, materials to help run things have gone substantially down since my youth.  We have moved much, much closer to that day. 
 

Outside of missionary monthly donations, are there any required noncommanded donations to the Church? (I see tithing and fast offerings as commandments.)

Edited December 2, 2023 by Calm