Modesty for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden

[telnetd]

The Liahona magazine makes these statements.

Of course, modesty is not new. It was taught to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. “Unto 
Adam … and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them” (Genesis 3:21; 
see also Moses 4:27). 

I don't quite understand the connection.

Did Adam and Eve view their nakedness as a matter of modesty between them? Or was 
it God who considered their nakedness as a form of modesty? 

How would clothing them with the coats of skin instead of them already wearing the 
fig leaf aprons be reflective of teaching them modesty?

[MustardSeed]

FWIW I think when you quote magazines here it would be helpful to indicate if the article is over 10 years old for those who don’t chase the links. 
 

This article was a 2008. 
 

I really personally don’t believe the garden event was about modesty the way the church used to push the concept.  The Mormon version of modesty was a control issue emerging from the sexual revolution, hippie culture and “women’s lib” and was a purity culture reaction and was directed mostly at girls. 
IMO. 

[Rain]

Look at the context:

Genesis 3:17-19 - And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

They are being put out of the garden into the world where there are thorns and thistles and dust. On context only I would say the clothing from God is for their physical protection.

In the article Elder Hales says, "To be modest is to be humble, and being humble invites the Spirit to be with us." I would agree with him there.  But that's a different definition of what much of the article talks about modesty.

I won't say he definitely is mistaken in using this example, but I would study and pray about it before using it myself because it seems out of context.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Rain

[MrShorty]

Feels to me like some interpretive liberties to promote a specific principle. Clothing serves so many other purposes -- especially as one enters a hostile, fallen world -- than just covering parts of the body that are not supposed to be on public display. At the most basic, pragmatic level, clothing provides protection from cold, sun, bugs. Given the many other functions that clothing serves, it seems like a small stretch to say that God making our first clothes is about modesty when the text makes no mention of what God taught them about the clothes He had made.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

FWIW I think when you quote magazines here it would be helpful to indicate if the article is over 10 years old for those who don’t chase the links. 
 

This article was a 2008. 
 

I really personally don’t believe the garden event was about modesty the way the church used to push the concept.  The Mormon version of modesty was a control issue emerging from the sexual revolution, hippie culture and “women’s lib” and was a purity culture reaction and was directed mostly at girls. 
IMO. 

I agree with MS.  This article was published during a time where "modesty!" was huge in the church. It's not treated the same now as it was then, thank goodness. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

The Liahona magazine makes these statements.

Of course, modesty is not new. It was taught to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. “Unto 
Adam … and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them” (Genesis 3:21; 
see also Moses 4:27). 

I don't quite understand the connection.

Did Adam and Eve view their nakedness as a matter of modesty between them? Or was 
it God who considered their nakedness as a form of modesty? 

How would clothing them with the coats of skin instead of them already wearing the 
fig leaf aprons be reflective of teaching them modesty?

That is all answered clearly in the temple.

Just noting that fact, for you and others.

They did not know they were "naked" until after the fall, and did not want to speak to God being naked.

Note of course that as the church itself teaches, this is "all figurative insofar as the man and woman are concerned".

The story says that Satan tempted them with the fruit, they partook and "fell", Satan told them to hide from God because they were naked, God then asked THEM, rhetorically, who told them that were naked.

Again, the story was figurative, as was clearly announced in the presentation pre- 1990

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Did Adam and Eve view their nakedness as a matter of modesty between them? Or was 
it God who considered their nakedness as a form of modesty? 

In the story it is Satan who shames them after the fall, and tells them to cover themselves before God returns; God returns, Adam confesses he was hiding from God due to nakedness.

God has nothing to do with telling them they are naked.

Remember Elder Bednar taught in conference that is ok to discuss these matters that we are not specifically banned from discussing by covenant.

This is one of those "ok items."

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

How would clothing them with the coats of skin instead of them already wearing the 
fig leaf aprons be reflective of teaching them modesty?

And if it still ain't clear, it was Satan who shamed them into "modesty".

They were taught that nakedness was wrong, by Satan, not taught modesty by God.

Clothing was not necessary before they fell.  Children will run around naked in their innocence, it is adults who teach invented "modesty".

Edited July 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[blackstrap]

I always wondered why there are hundreds of " Christian " sects when all read the same scriptures. This thread shows how reading / misreading/ not actually reading the info can create confusion. 

[blackstrap]

Note to self: avoid thistles  when naked. 

[The Nehor]

Someone should bring back the Adamite faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites

[Chum]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Someone should bring back the Adamite faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites

So it's like an early Rainbow Gathering, before anyone figured out how to extract ergot from the bread mold.  A St. Vitus harvest dance would have been awesome.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Chum

[The Nehor]

44 minutes ago, Chum said:

So it's like an early Rainbow Gathering, before anyone figured out how to extract ergot from the bread mold.  A St. Vitus harvest dance would have been awesome.

Sort of, but you also have everyone convinced that it is impossible for them to actually sin or do wrong. Now introduce some bad actors. Hilarity/tragedy ensues.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Given the many other functions that clothing serves, it seems like a small stretch to say that God making our first clothes is about modesty when the text makes no mention of what God taught them about the clothes He had made.

It was just Adam and Eve and eventually their kids if you believe the traditional interpretation. Was showing some skin that big of deal between a husband and wife?  Seems unlikely it would be such a high priority when they were about to embark on a journey where they would have many new struggles to deal with. 

[The Nehor]

If you believe death came into the world with the Fall for all life God making coats out of skins suggests God killed the first animals to make them.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, telnetd said:

The Liahona magazine makes these statements.

Of course, modesty is not new. It was taught to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. “Unto 
Adam … and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them” (Genesis 3:21; 
see also Moses 4:27). 

I don't quite understand the connection.

Did Adam and Eve view their nakedness as a matter of modesty between them? Or was 
it God who considered their nakedness as a form of modesty? 

How would clothing them with the coats of skin instead of them already wearing the 
fig leaf aprons be reflective of teaching them modesty?

As far as modesty goes, the Lord was teaching them this principle along with many other things. He taught them, in general, proactively far more than reactively. Modesty is mentioned because it has been a problem for fallen people, whenever it is that one believes the scriptures were written. How would you answer your questions with this as a basis?

It is interesting to me that we often self-teach (e.g., inventing fig leaf aprons) and then the Lord teaches a greater fulness by grace (e.g., the covenants associated with His clothing them in skins), in preparation for an even greater fulness. Inasmuch as modesty, fear and shame can intersect on a visceral level, Adam and Eve's nakedness, since they were one flesh as husband and wife, had to do with their attitude toward the Lord, having subjected themselves to Stan's negative influence (Q1). It seems that God considered their reaction to their nakedness a form of immodesty since they were ashamed in a devilish way, repulsed by His presence (Q2). Fortunately, they decided to come forth and face the music, presumably because they loved Him and each other, and reason prevailed also. In this case, God was teaching them a higher, holier modesty (Q3). And many other things against which immodesty proves to be a barrier.

[mfbukowski]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you believe death came into the world with the Fall for all life God making coats out of skins suggests God killed the first animals to make them.

I don't believe that for a second, but you get the buzzer anyway.

The story says God made the clothes AFTER the fall.  

Besides, if God could make an animal, he could animal parts, uninstalled. 

Double strikeout. 😜

I gotta get outa here. Next stop: Mddb Anonymous 

Edited July 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you believe death came into the world with the Fall for all life God making coats out of skins suggests God killed the first animals to make them.

That always struck me as yuck when I was young. But then I started considering animal sacrifice (I was grateful when I finally understood that much of the sacrifices were used as food and only a small amount completely consumed by fire. It had seemed wasteful of life and unlike a God who treasured his creations.
 

If God did kill the first animal, bet he made some jerky too for the arduous trip out of the garden.  And probably some hollowed out gourds for water. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

far as modesty goes, the Lord was teaching them this principle along with many other things.

Where was modesty taught though?  If nothing was said, then how would God have conveyed modesty? If it is just taught by God at the most basic coverage in his giving of skins, then halter tops and shorts should be acceptable.  There is no ‘so much above the knee’, no ‘no midriff showing (unless male)’, no ‘no shoulders bare (unless male)’.

”. It seems that God considered their reaction to their nakedness a form of immodesty since they were ashamed in a devilish way, repulsed by His presence (Q2). Fortunately, they decided to come forth and face the music, presumably because they loved Him and each other, and reason prevailed also. In this case, God was teaching them a higher, holier modesty (Q3). And many other things against which immodesty proves to be a barrier.”

I like the above idea, it just seems reading a lot into the text. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Calm

[pogi]

8 hours ago, telnetd said:

Of course, modesty is not new. It was taught to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. “Unto 
Adam … and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them” (Genesis 3:21; 
see also Moses 4:27). 

Heaven forbid that Eve tempt Adam by bearing her shoulders as they attempt to multiply and replenish the earth.

[CV75]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

Where was modesty taught though?  If nothing was said, then how would God have conveyed modesty? If it is just taught by God at the most basic coverage in his giving of skins, then halter tops and shorts should be acceptable.  There is no ‘so much above the knee’, no ‘no midriff showing (unless male)’, no ‘no shoulders bare (unless male)’.

”. It seems that God considered their reaction to their nakedness a form of immodesty since they were ashamed in a devilish way, repulsed by His presence (Q2). Fortunately, they decided to come forth and face the music, presumably because they loved Him and each other, and reason prevailed also. In this case, God was teaching them a higher, holier modesty (Q3). And many other things against which immodesty proves to be a barrier.”

I like the above idea, it just seems reading a lot into the text. 

If someone interprets the story to involve literal modesty (as in one purpose of clothing), I am happy to meet them there. Modesty is an attribute that takes on many forms, some correct and some not. The Lord meets up where we are and helps us develop a Christlike expression of modesty. But I am also quick to point out other covenant-related lessons from this part of the scriptural record.

Yes, I am reading into the text, along with telnetd. Otherwise, I would just point out that “modesty” is not a word used in the text. Conversation over! But neither is it used in “For the Strength of Youth”  Your body is sacred (churchofjesuschrist.org) when clothing choices are addressed.

There is a nice article in this month’s Liahona: The Jerusalem Council (churchofjesuschrist.org). It isn’t about modesty standards per se, but it shows how the Lord’s process for making authoritative decisions designed to promote unity in the earthly kingdom by balancing human culturality and spirituality in our basic day-to-day choices. It is an ongoing process, a form of continuing revelation.

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Heaven forbid that Eve tempt Adam by bearing her shoulders as they attempt to multiply and replenish the earth.

I look forward to the day our shoulders can be free, lol:) 

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I look forward to the day our shoulders can be free, lol:) 

Thank goodness we've progressed into being able to show our elbows!

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thank goodness we've progressed into being able to show our elbows!

At the great expense of the poor brethren who’s thoughts have been in the gutter ever sense. 

[Rain]

43 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I look forward to the day our shoulders can be free, lol:) 

And arm pits!