Shunning Former Members

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not me, I am afraid to tell some of my friends/family I'm inactive, I am afraid if they know they'll not want to hang out or play pickleball. 😒 But maybe they already know. I can't for the life of me let go of my active LDS friends, and go with those like me or those that are antagonistic, it's strange really or maybe not. Not sure, but it would be the last thing for me to do is rub it in people's faces. I basically still act and look the part, minus attending church. I've not given up thought that I may return.

I would hope they would respond with love and fidelity.  

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, Rain said:

Jesus also tells us we should be a light and an example to others and go after the one and its hard to do that if we cut off association with everyone.

I think it's wise to council with the Lord on how we should handle any specific occasion.

Yes, of course it’s wise to council with the Lord about what do in every situation. And by sharing this scripture and asking some follow up questions, I’m in no way suggesting that we should cut off association with everyone. 

However, the Lord is giving us pretty clear instructions in these verses and I don’t think these instructions apply only to how to deal with individuals whose actions or teachings, which are completely incompatible with the restored gospel, we recognize as tempting to us. Nor do I believe that the instructions only apply to how to deal with individuals who we believe can only do us harm. I think there’s a very real danger in continuing close association with individuals who have left the faith and whose teachings and/or actions are incompatible with the restored gospel. 

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, Rain said:

and its hard to do that if we cut off association with everyone.

I’ve cut off association with people who are abusive, and that feels fine to me. But just because someone lives a lifestyle that includes alcohol, or someone who decides the church is a poor fit, or who has sex outside of marriage, or who hates Jesus, these of themselves would be unfortunate reasons to miss out on those relationships, in my experience. To each his own. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

He even tells us to be friends with mammon.   

Jesus never shunned anyone, which seems relevant when trying to interpret those previous verses about cutting off appendages.

What do you think it means to cut someone off like you would cut off an appendage? 

[MustardSeed]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not me, I am afraid to tell some of my friends/family I'm inactive, I am afraid if they know they'll not want to hang out or play pickleball. 😒 But maybe they already know. I can't for the life of me let go of my active LDS friends, and go with those like me or those that are antagonistic, it's strange really or maybe not. Not sure, but it would be the last thing for me to do is rub it in people's faces. I basically still act and look the part, minus attending church. I've not given up the thought that I may return.

I am with BB.  I would hope that if you are saying “I don’t like church but I still wanna be friends” that people might feel relief that the elephant is out of the room and you are now clear about what you want.  It’s always made me feel great to be wanted by anyone inside or outside or on their way out or what have you.  

[JLHPROF]

I don't believe in shunning - it's the very opposite of what Christ would have us do.

But that doesn't mean caution isn't warranted.  The scriptures warn about being yoked with unbelievers.  And I also consider it my responsibility to teach my children so they endure to the end, marry for eternity, and have children in the covenant.  And children inevitably marry those they associate with.

So shun?  Absolutely not.  Yoke myself or my family together with them?  Definitely not.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Not me, I am afraid to tell some of my friends/family I'm inactive, I am afraid if they know they'll not want to hang out or play pickleball. 😒 But maybe they already know. I can't for the life of me let go of my active LDS friends, and go with those like me or those that are antagonistic, it's strange really or maybe not. Not sure, but it would be the last thing for me to do is rub it in people's faces. I basically still act and look the part, minus attending church. I've not given up the thought that I may return.

I don’t think you should feel the least bit bad about it is looking like the part is what you want to do and not not forcing yourself to be that way out of fear As long as you don’t lie, if they aren’t interested in asking questions, that’s not on you.  But if it eats at you wondering, maybe be open about it making sure they know that you value the relationship and respect their faith, which is part of why you haven’t mentioned it before.  

Edited April 1, 2023 by Calm

[2BizE]

What I hear often from people who live in Utah and leave the faith is they quickly find out how shallow many of their relationships are with members of the church. The person who is their ministering friend turns out to not really care to continue a relationship anymore. Same with many other leaders and members.  Many have little common interests outside of the church.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

What I hear often from people who live in Utah and leave the faith is they quickly find out how shallow many of their relationships are with members of the church. The person who is their ministering friend turns out to not really care to continue a relationship anymore. Same with many other leaders and members.  Many have little common interests outside of the church.

I would assume this happens with many things where you get connected more because of location than natural attraction.  My “best friend” growing up was my next door neighbour, but I didn’t like her that much (she was rather critical, which made me nervous and did not share or invite me over as I did her).  My mom’s health was bad, so friends to play with were just those within easy reach.  We were in Illinois and no one else were Saints around, that might have been a reasons others didn’t come over or invite us (got some weird questions from friends), but my guess is it was more Mom’s health.  Having a mom (or dad) who can drive you around, make treats so kids feel welcome, etc…that makes a difference.

[MustardSeed]

Well this thread just inspired me to reach out to a friend of mine who was part of a COVID Marco Polo group chat.  High school friends.  6 months ago she removed herself without explanation,  very abruptly.  I’ve not reached out at all, because the tension  from the unexplained exit made me uncomfortable.  So… I just sent her a “I miss you and was thinking of you today hope you are well” note. 

 

[InCognitus]

The go-to Bible passage for showing the need for excommunication is 1 Corinthians chapter 5, where there was a man in the church committing fornication and the apostle Paul counseled the church at Corinth to "put away from among yourselves that wicked person" (verse 13).  But rarely do we consider Paul's later expression of compassion to such individuals and how to treat people who struggle.

I have this quote saved as an example of how we should show compassion to those who struggle or are former members of the church.  This comes from the Ensign article, "The Apostle Paul as Master Teacher", by Frank F. Judd Jr and John Hilton II, Ensign, September 2015:

Quote

Reaching Out to Those Who Struggle

While teaching excellent students is often easier and more enjoyable, striving to reach out to those who struggle makes the difference between a good teacher and a master teacher.

Paul taught people to show compassion toward those who struggled. For instance, Paul told the leaders of the Corinthian Saints to discipline a person who had committed serious moral transgressions (see 1 Corinthians 5:1–8) but then later counseled them to make sure they forgave and encouraged him so he would not be overcome with sorrow (see 2 Corinthians 2:6–7; see also Galatians 6:1).

I would include verse 8 of 2 Corinthians 2 as well:

"Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.  So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.  Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him."  (2 Corinthians 2:6–8)

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

What I hear often from people who live in Utah and leave the faith is they quickly find out how shallow many of their relationships are with members of the church. The person who is their ministering friend turns out to not really care to continue a relationship anymore. Same with many other leaders and members.  Many have little common interests outside of the church.

Good point. It seems like it would be the same if, for example, someone was good friends with people they worked with and then quit that job for another.  Especially if they only ever saw that friend at work or because of work duties.

Like Cal said, when a friendship only existed in the first place because of proximity, losing that proximity is likely to affect the friendship. That’s not a justification for discontinuing to put in effort or not reaching out to people who have left though.  True friendship requires that. I just think that it can be easy to read too much into a loss of closeness between people when one leaves at church.

It doesn’t necessarily mean anything nefarious on either person’s part.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Well this thread just inspired me to reach out to a friend of mine who was part of a COVID Marco Polo group chat.  High school friends.  6 months ago she removed herself without explanation,  very abruptly.  I’ve not reached out at all, because the tension  from the unexplained exit made me uncomfortable.  So… I just sent her a “I miss you and was thinking of you today hope you are well” note. 

 

Sweet!! I'm interested if she replies with some kind of explanation. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Not me, I am afraid to tell some of my friends/family I'm inactive, I am afraid if they know they'll not want to hang out or play pickleball. 😒 But maybe they already know. I can't for the life of me let go of my active LDS friends, and go with those like me or those that are antagonistic, it's strange really or maybe not. Not sure, but it would be the last thing for me to do is rub it in people's faces. I basically still act and look the part, minus attending church. I've not given up the thought that I may return.

Stay in the boat, even if you are a stowaway.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What do you think it means to cut someone off like you would cut off an appendage? 

That is not what that scripture was about.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

54 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That is not what that scripture was about.

No? Please explain what you think it is talking about then. 

[Dario_M]

6 hours ago, 2BizE said:

What I hear often from people who live in Utah and leave the faith is they quickly find out how shallow many of their relationships are with members of the church. The person who is their ministering friend turns out to not really care to continue a relationship anymore. Same with many other leaders and members.  Many have little common interests outside of the church.

If i take a good look it must be shallow indeed. 

People who break a friendship with their close friend or a family member only because he/she doesn't wanna go to church anymore i find disturbing......that's how i feel like. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Dario_M

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I guess the question would be whether we have the foresight and awareness to know whether or not someone who has left the church, denied the faith, or engages in behavior that is incompatible with the restored gospel has the potential to lead us astray or not. I would suspect that there have been countless instances where someone claimed that it was perfectly fine to continue association with such and individual because they would never allow this individual to lead them astray, only to have this person lead them astray. 

Yes, life is a test of our agency given all kinds of situations and circumstances. The Restored Gospel is great help. The Church has formal ways of removing membership and that offers some level of protection. Individually, we also have the gift of the Holy Ghost and the Lord's personal intervention as he sees fit. I also see the Lord's statement in JST Mark 9 as not preemptive; the offense must first occur, and then action is taken to prevent further offense. 

The potential to be led astray is ever present (and not only by intent or by those you describe; they are but one vehicle), but so is the light of Christ and the gift of the Holy Ghost. By "countless" I assume you mean "indeterminate," and even one is too many. This is why we must "pray always." But we don't; that is on us. I like D&C 10: 5, "Pray always, that you may come off conqueror; yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work."

[Navidad]

14 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I guess the question would be whether we have the foresight and awareness to know whether or not someone who has left the church, denied the faith, or engages in behavior that is incompatible with the restored gospel has the potential to lead us astray or not. I would suspect that there have been countless instances where someone claimed that it was perfectly fine to continue association with such and individual because they would never allow this individual to lead them astray, only to have this person lead them astray. 

I am wondering if it would be any different if I just changed a couple of words in your comment? How about if I said,

"I guess the question would be whether we have the foresight and awareness to know whether or not someone who has not left the church, has not denied the faith, but engages in behavior that is incompatible with the restored gospel has the potential to lead us astray or not. I would suspect that there have been countless instances where someone claimed that it was perfectly fine to continue association with such an individual because they would never allow this individual to lead them astray, only to have this person lead them astray."

OR ----

"I guess the question would be whether we have the foresight and awareness to know whether or not someone who has never joined the church, has not denied the faith, but engages in behavior that is incompatible with the gospel has the potential to lead us astray or not. I would suspect that there have been countless instances where someone claimed that it was perfectly fine to continue association with such an individual because they would never allow this individual to lead them astray, only to have this person lead them astray."

OR ----

I guess the question would be whether we have the foresight and awareness to know whether or not someone who has left the church, has not denied the faith, and does not engage in behavior that is incompatible with the restored gospel has the potential to lead us astray or not. I would suspect that there have been countless instances where someone claimed that it was perfectly fine to continue association with such an individual because this individual would never lead them astray, only to have that someone go astray on their own."

OR -----

I guess the question would be whether we have the foresight and awareness to know whether or not someone who has never joined the church, has not denied the faith, and does not engage in behavior that is incompatible with the restored gospel has the potential to lead us astray or not. I would suspect that there have been countless instances where someone claimed that it was perfectly fine to continue association with such an individual because they would never allow this individual to lead them astray, only to have that someone go astray on their own."
 

[Navidad]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe in shunning - it's the very opposite of what Christ would have us do.

But that doesn't mean caution isn't warranted.  The scriptures warn about being yoked with unbelievers.  And I also consider it my responsibility to teach my children so they endure to the end, marry for eternity, and have children in the covenant.  And children inevitably marry those they associate with.

So shun?  Absolutely not.  Yoke myself or my family together with them?  Definitely not.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

What does it mean to you to be "unequally yoked together?" Is everyone who is not a member of the LDS church unrighteous, dark, of Belial, an infidel, one who worships idols, and unclean? Is everyone who is not a member of the LDS church an "unbeliever?" What does it mean to "yoke yourself of your family to them?" Who exactly are the "them you are referring to? Do you really think that II Cor. 6:14 is talking about (describing) those who do not belong to the LDS church? Your post brings up a lot of questions in my mind. Thanks in advance for your reply.
 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Navidad

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I’m wondering if it would be any different if I just changed a couple of words in your comment?

If you change the scenario, then of course things are different. But your different scenarios don’t take anything away from my point about what the Savior said in JST Mark 9. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I also see the Lord's statement in JST Mark 9 as not preemptive; the offense must first occur, and then action is taken to prevent further offense. 

Agreed. 

40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Agreed. 

40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Reference? This doesn't make much sense.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Reference? This doesn't make much sense.

JST Mark 9

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

JST Mark 9

I don't think it means cutting off friends/family that are unbelievers, more like cut off sin that are your desires. 

If people want to be disciples of Jesus, they should not despise those who appear weak and insignificant. Indeed, they should take severe action against themselves to remove from their lives anything that might cause them to follow their own desires instead of submitting to Jesus. Wrong desires prevent people from receiving Jesus and lead only to hell (Matthew 18:6-9; Mark 9:42-48). God will test and cleanse the disciples, but if they want to be useful for him in leading people to Jesus, they must cease their quarrelling and make sure that they themselves are pure in heart (Mark 9:49-50).