Shunning Former Members

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

we all know that these type of things happen more in Utah then anywhere else

Yeah, I don’t believe that from what I have seen and heard elsewhere…unless you are just talking about Saints and not people in general.  Then it would make sense because of the high numbers of Saints in Utah.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Calm

[Dario_M]

Just now, Calm said:

Yeah, I don’t believe that from what I have seen and heard elsewhere…unless you are just talking about Saints and not people in general. 

I'm talking about the people of our church community who live's in Utah. 

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

My pocket of Utah feels this way to me. I have never been in a neighborhood before where I had outgoing neighbors that made an effort to get to know and even help us even as a kid save for my years in a married student ward at BYU and it came at the best time given I am so limited to my home these days. It is comforting to know of the 10 houses that border my home, I could go to 8 of them, they would know me by name and would help in any way they could without me having to beg, several dropping what they were doing immediately if possible. The last two are relatively new and haven’t met them in the street or at church yet, so they may be the same kind of people.  I am going to hate moving (when we can no longer trust ourselves on stairs), which will be a first for me (I like new starts plus the homes were never able to make that comfortable without tons more money than we had).

I'm jealous Calm, but sure glad you have such a great neighborhood. My old neighborhood, I could say the same thing, but in order for that to have happened is my membership in the LDS ward, and being active. In my newer ward now going on five years, and being inactive, I semi know about five or six neighbors, but would be uncomfortable borrowing sugar from them or they me. 

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

From an evolutionary biology perspective, if you're shunned by tribe, you're pretty much dead.

Or you find a new tribe.

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm jealous Calm, but sure glad you have such a great neighborhood. My old neighborhood, I could say the same thing, but in order for that to have happened is my membership in the LDS ward, and being active. In my newer ward now going on five years, and being inactive, I semi know about five or six neighbors, but would be uncomfortable borrowing sugar from them or they me. 

Active membership in the Church is a great shortcut for establishing social bonds. I could not say the same for past my block though given I have been at church so rarely lately and no longer am seen around walking the dog. It was hilarious for a time as she was better known than I was due to my husband being the more frequent walker. Kids would swarm the dog but give me the beady eye, lol. “You’re not Pete!”  Yeah, I am not an over 6 foot male with a beard.  Kids were very observant.  

The Church being an social aid is a two edged sword though, on the one hand it helps facilitate connections; but remove it and connections are harder to make because so many around you in Utah will have their free time booked already with those social activities among other things. 

In other places outside Utah my venue for making social connections in the neighbourhood was the school.  Really hard to get to know neighbours who didn’t have kids at home.  That happened with only the man directly across from us on the street.  Even the person next door, only saw her when I did the daffodil fundraising drive.  I am not social enough to knock on the door and start a conversation even if I can manage it well in the street. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Plenty of members are thin-skinned with even mild criticisms of the church, calling everything an attack, and ignoring their own tendency to blast other religious beliefs. Has all that interbreeding in Utah led to a population with even thinner skin and less self-awareness, resulting in excess shunning? Scientifically speaking, yes, it has.

interesting observation. I know someone descended from a vastly diverse gene pool who left the Church (lives in a largely LDS neighborhood, the temple is an easy walking distance) and whose thin skin is a major part of losing their faith, whether the triggers involve the complaints du jour against the Church, Utah culture, the demands of personal discipleship, framing experiences with Church, members and Utahan negatively and justifying any other way to escape these pains and disappointments.

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Active membership in the Church is a great shortcut for establishing social bonds. I could not say the same for past my block though given I have been at church so rarely lately and no longer am seen around walking the dog. It was hilarious for a time as she was better known than I was due to my husband being the more frequent walker. Kids would swarm the dog but give me the beady eye, lol. “You’re not Pete!”  Yeah, I am not an over 6 foot male with a beard.  Kids were very observant.  

The Church being an social aid is a two edged sword though, on the one hand it helps facilitate connections; but remove it and connections are harder to make because so many around you in Utah will have their free time booked already with those social activities among other things. 

In other places my venue for making social connections in the neighbourhood was the school.  Really hard to get to know neighbours who didn’t have kids at home.  That happened with only the man directly across from us on the street.  Even the person next door, only saw her when I did the daffodil fundraising drive. 

This happens in the "mission field" too. One poor soul I know "stepped away ("back"? I forget the terminology; I would just say "quit"). If anyone needs a friend, help moving, help with kids, self-reliance courses, welfare assistance, counseling, etc. etc. etc. they do. They could have accessed this help despite their actions, as egregious as they are, but their anger and blame are so great they would rather suffer and live a "worldly" life on their own terms / freedom ("cut off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind). One of those "needs to hit rock bottom" learning experiences, I suppose.

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm jealous Calm, but sure glad you have such a great neighborhood. My old neighborhood, I could say the same thing, but in order for that to have happened is my membership in the LDS ward, and being active. In my newer ward now going on five years, and being inactive, I semi know about five or six neighbors, but would be uncomfortable borrowing sugar from them or they me. 

I found having a baby really helped making friends, I guess people are either drawn by a baby or feel if you are holding one a lot you are safe. Then the baby provides plenty to talk about. My neighbours and I were much friendlier when I had a baby or toddler in tow. The Utah neighborhoods I was in prebaby I knew one set of neighbours and they had a baby, lol.  So it’s not like all my Utah experiences were great.  Lived in 6 places in Utah besides all those single BYU branches every college year, only two felt this wonderful way.

The only place my kids never gave us an opening was in Moscow. You want to feel shunned by a whole population, be an American in Moscow shortly after the Soviet Union ceased to exist. It was a wee bit better if we had our backpacks with Canadian patches on them. Don’t know if they are any less unfriendly these days. Small towners were very friendly with visitors though, not trashing a whole country.

Moscovites would look right through us as if we didn’t exist even when standing in front of them at that counter asking for whatever.  Going to church kept me sane. There were at least a handful of people in the city that would look at me and even talk to me! Lol

It was a very depressing and scary time because of that lack of human connection. I was so grateful to get back to Canada. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Calm

[Vanguard]

As with any other emotionally draining break-up, I believe folks in general have a tendency to characterize the other side in a more negative light. Dollars to donuts that if many of those who have been accused of shunning a former member were given an opportunity to characterize what transpired with this former member-friend, they would paint quite the different picture about what happened. Again, it's like a marital break-up, if you're friends/family of the wife then the ex is a scalawag, and vice-versa.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

No exmo has ever said anything half convincing enough to imperil my salvation.

Okay, but what do you think about those verses and what they are telling us to do?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I found having a baby really helped making friends, I guess people are either drawn by a baby or feel if you are holding one a lot you are safe. Then the baby provides plenty to talk about. My neighbours and I were much friendlier when I had a baby or toddler in tow. The Utah neighborhoods I was in prebaby I knew one set of neighbours and they had a baby, lol.  So it’s not like all my Utah experiences were great.  Lived in 6 places in Utah besides all those single BYU branches every college year, only two felt this wonderful way.

The only place my kids never gave us an opening was in Moscow. You want to feel shunned by a whole population, be an American in Moscow shortly after the Soviet Union ceased to exist. It was a wee bit better if we had our backpacks with Canadian patches on them. Don’t know if they are any less unfriendly these days. Small towners were very friendly with visitors though, not trashing a whole country.

Moscovites would look right through us as if we didn’t exist even when standing in front of them at that counter asking for whatever.  Going to church kept me sane. There were at least a handful of people in the city that would look at me and even talk to me! Lol

It was a very depressing and scary time because of that lack of human connection. I was so grateful to get back to Canada. 

Definitely a good point about the baby, I also believe having kids play with your neighbors' kids does create friendship. Now that I'm an emptynester that's probably a big reason why, or I'll blame it on that, and covid didn't help. 

 

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

My dad didn't exactly shun his wayward kids, but he did use posturing bluffs and parental leverage to manipulate them back to church at every opportunity. Pressure them to say the family prayer, or pray himself while they are present praying with the family, will say at uncomfortable length that they will come back to church, and other things on his mind I guess he feels he must trap them in this situation to get the opportunity to say what he feels to them. Shunning is a step beyond that but still a manipulation tactic. 

If I get kids. I think I'd teach the gospel and only pressure them to obey a handful of fundament principles, like above all else stay away from p*rn, I'd rather they try to date early and if they wanted to have sex, I'll take them to the courthouse to get married, and it doesn't have to be a big deal to do the right thing. I'd like to be honest, somehow convey how I'd even rather if they were too curious about sex, that they'd pursue even premarital sex before considering partaking in porn. I guess help them find happiness if they can't find faith.

Didn’t work for Lehi, either. 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Studies presented here

Funny, I suppose, but CFR is taken seriously here. It helps keep things together. 

[Dario_M]

I find that it isn't okay to break a close friendship or even a close family member only because he/she doesn't wanna go to church anymore. That's their choics, not ours. Those churchmembers who get upset because their son, dauhter, friend, father, mother, etc, doesnt wanna go to church anymore have no right to get upset to begin with in my opinion. Because it's not your problem. It's the problem of the person who doesn't wanna go to church anymore and probably has a good reason to do so. Strange enough the people who have left the church where mostely the most reliable church members in the beginning. I have heard plenty of those stories. To much actually. So let's not judge those people shal we? Btw all those storie's have also made me think a lot about this matter. Far bevore this topic. And i came to the conclusion that we as the LDS church also need to change our ways a bit. And then people will not leave the church so quickly .

If you really feel the need to wanna break contact with a closed loved one you better come with a better reason then this. That's at least my opinion. 

Do you read this Utah? 🍁🌲 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Dario_M

[Nemesis]

On 3/30/2023 at 12:10 PM, Smiley McGee said:

Studies presented here

Can you please present what you feel is relevant to the topic? 

[CV75]

On 3/30/2023 at 10:47 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What do you think about this scripture in JST Mark 9?

JST, Mark 9:40–48. Compare Mark 9:43–48
Jesus compares cutting off an offending hand or foot to discontinuing associations that may lead one astray.
 40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
 44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/jst/jst-mark/9?lang=eng

We really shouldn't hang around people who can only do us harm, but that differs from person to person. We all have limitations we shouldnt play with. I take this counsel to apply to what we should do given our weaknesses,  not our disapproval of someone else's acts that we are not tempted to commit.

[Smiley McGee]

47 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

Can you please present what you feel is relevant to the topic? 

I’ll go ahead and delete my comment(s), but it was clearly not meant to be serious. I grew up in California, am a Lakers fan, and was semi-active while living in UT for 10 years — three targets for ridicule in the great state of UT. The friends who were born and raised Utahns were as good at dishing it as they were poor at taking it. 
 

ETA: alas, appears I can’t edit them. I’ll delete them if enabled.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

I’ll go ahead and delete my comment(s), but it was clearly not meant to be serious. I grew up in California, am a Lakers fan, and was semi-active while living in UT for 10 years — three targets for ridicule in the great state of UT. The friends who were born and raised Utahns were as good at dishing it as they were poor at taking it. 

Thanks. The comment was not clearly facetious, hence the CFR; however, CFRs are taken seriously here.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

My experience is that at least for a while many folks who leave the Church rub it in their former friends’ and relatives’ faces, usually in the form of newly found liberation from restrictive dress issues, onerous Sabbath activities, and partaking of previously forbidden Word of Wisdom delicacies. This can be off-putting for some.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

40 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My experience is that at least for a while many folks who leave the Church rub it in their former friends’ and relatives’ faces, usually in the form of newly found liberation from restrictive dress issues, onerous Sabbath activities, and partaking of previously forbidden Word of Wisdom delicacies. This can be off-putting for some.

What do you mean by "rub it in their former friends’ and relatives’ faces"? Just wearing clothes you couldn't with garments and drinking coffee while you eat breakfast together or something more like criticizing your dress and mocking you if you don't drink?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

We really shouldn't hang around people who can only do us harm, but that differs from person to person. We all have limitations we shouldnt play with. I take this counsel to apply to what we should do given our weaknesses,  not our disapproval of someone else's acts that we are not tempted to commit.

I guess the question would be whether we have the foresight and awareness to know whether or not someone who has left the church, denied the faith, or engages in behavior that is incompatible with the restored gospel has the potential to lead us astray or not. I would suspect that there have been countless instances where someone claimed that it was perfectly fine to continue association with such and individual because they would never allow this individual to lead them astray, only to have this person lead them astray. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

We really shouldn't hang around people who can only do us harm, but that differs from person to person. We all have limitations we shouldnt play with. I take this counsel to apply to what we should do given our weaknesses,  not our disapproval of someone else's acts that we are not tempted to commit.

I guess the question would be whether we have the foresight and awareness to know whether or not someone who has left the church, denied the faith, or engages in behavior that is incompatible with the restored gospel has the potential to lead us astray or not. I would suspect that there have been countless instances where someone claimed that it was perfectly fine to continue association with such and individual because they would never allow this individual to lead them astray, only to have this person lead them astray. 

[Rain]

On 3/30/2023 at 7:47 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What do you think about this scripture in JST Mark 9?

JST, Mark 9:40–48. Compare Mark 9:43–48
Jesus compares cutting off an offending hand or foot to discontinuing associations that may lead one astray.
 40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
 44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/jst/jst-mark/9?lang=eng

Jesus also tells us we should be a light and an example to others and go after the one and its hard to do that if we cut off association with everyone.

I think it's wise to council with the Lord on how we should handle any specific occasion.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

My experience is that at least for a while many folks who leave the Church rub it in their former friends’ and relatives’ faces, usually in the form of newly found liberation from restrictive dress issues, onerous Sabbath activities, and partaking of previously forbidden Word of Wisdom delicacies. This can be off-putting for some.

Not me, I am afraid to tell some of my friends/family I'm inactive, I am afraid if they know they'll not want to hang out or play pickleball. 😒 But maybe they already know. I can't for the life of me let go of my active LDS friends, and go with those like me or those that are antagonistic, it's strange really or maybe not. Not sure, but it would be the last thing for me to do is rub it in people's faces. I basically still act and look the part, minus attending church. I've not given up the thought that I may return.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

Jesus also tells us we should be a light and an example to others and go after the one and its hard to do that if we cut off association with everyone.

I think it's wise to council with the Lord on how we should handle any specific occasion.

He even tells us to be friends with mammon.   

Jesus never shunned anyone, which seems relevant when trying to interpret those previous verses about cutting off appendages.