General Conference word counts

[Vanguard]

On 4/3/2023 at 9:29 PM, MustardSeed said:

It took years before I understood my grandma to mean “I’m headed to the church building” when she said “I’m headed up to tha waard.”  
 

I also notice lots of Utah with deep roots will say a quick “mm” before saying “bye” before hanging up the phone.  
 

“Mm bye” 😘

I can't believe that's a thing beyond my own family! My mother has always said "Mm bye" at the end of phone conversations and she's only lived in Utah for a couple of years throughout her life. 

When I moved my family up to Utah from Cali in '18, I noticed immediately how Utahns prounce certain words like "let's go on a hike in the - mou'ens". ;o

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

  But to ignore the fact that men are wired to recognize visual signals ignores the way male brains are structured.

Most male minds are wired to respond that way, but male mouths don’t have to share everything that goes on in male brains. 

[Tacenda]

45 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So before modern mass media was invented men never thought women were sexually appealing???

I would respectfully disagree with you.  In many mammals, including primates, the female will give off visual signals that she is an available mate.  The males of the species are wired to recognize these signals.  We are primates.  Human female bodies are biologically designed to appeal to men and give off signals that they are available mates.  Male humans are wired to recognize these signals and respond.  This is part of our species reproductive strategy.  The media just can't create something out of thin air.  There is a firm biological foundation for all of this.

 

35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Totally agree. There’s so much about our biology that we don’t consider in our routine operating.

What is missing from the conversation is the fact that girls also feel desire and that boys have just as much responsibility as the girls to not flaunt their sexuality, and while we are biological, we are also capable of operating above our basic instinct, and should manage our own thoughts and desires. The conversation has been so drastically imbalanced that it has created a real problem that in my opinion, ultimately demonstrates itself in the bedroom where women feel that they are there to please their spouses and are not taking responsibility for their own sexuality, thus leading to disparity regarding levels of desire. This is not just a problem in our church. It is a problem in society, but it is underscored in our church as we continue the conversation around girls wearing two piece swimsuits. Even just saying that out loud sounds completely ridiculous but here we are.

 

I wish leaders that speak in Gen Conf remember or read what's in the church's own newspaper. It's not the only time it's happened, many leaders have done harm in this area. I hope they'll soon change their tones. I thought we'd done better especially when Des News even talks about it! In the quote I believe it points out that we should be admiring other things besides what a girl looks like or what she wears.

https://www.deseret.com/indepth/2020/9/17/21432749/media-netflix-cuties-sexualizes-girls-tv-video-games-toys-sexual-harassment-assault 

From the article:

“You have this real bind of aspiring to be like someone because that’s who’s kind of pretty and attractive and popular. Yet, she’s not really associated with any of the things we think we want our kids to value: doing well in school, being kind to others, being strong. And so that becomes problematic,” said Brown.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Tacenda

[ksfisher]

55 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

we are also capable of operating above our basic instinct, and should manage our own thoughts and desires.

We are.  This is what the gospel is teaching us.  But it is a process and I would say much easier for me as a mature adult than when I was a young man.  Hormones can be pretty powerful. 

The drive to create new life is the most powerful force on the planet among living creatures.

[ksfisher]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

Most male minds are wired to respond that way, but male mouths don’t have to share everything that goes on in male brains. 

True.  But I think most of the male mouths you're speaking about are found on young men (14-20 something).  And speaking from personal experience I believe this is when men are at their stupidest.  Wisdom, and restraint, comes with age.  Expecting young men to act with wisdom is a path to disappointment.

[MustardSeed]

It’s unfortunate indeed.  But I wear a two piece now and have for many years. If my body incites sexual compulsion (repulsion? Lol.) in a two piece it’s gonna do the same in a one, and I’m not going to stay home to protect men.  I don’t flaunt my sexuality.  But mens thoughts are not my responsibility.  
 

 

[gopher]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m picking up what you’re putting down- but for the record I wish he hadn’t used this story as an example to illustrate his point.    There has been a very successful grass roots effort to eliminate focus on women’s “modesty” as we have bastardized the true meaning of the word and actually created a lot of shame issues for girls. When I heard him tell that story, I thought to myself first of all there’s no way that’s actually what happened. It sounded scripted to me and white washed. He was trying to make a different point by telling that story but I knew this would become a problem. There are multiple possible messages that come out of that story.1. Only attractive girls should wear two-piece swimsuits. 2. Unattractive girls need not apply 3. Wearing one piece swimsuits will make you righteous enough to win the guy 4. what a girl wears to the beach, should matter to anybody. 5. Once again girls bodies are up for discussion but modesty for boys is rarely a topic.

I’m with Tacenda on this one.  The story was unnecessary inflammatory for us girls who have bodies.

Sure, he's probably unaware of all that.  I don't think he would have used that example if he saw the carnage in the aftermath of many of the discussions here on modesty when male posters offer up their opinions.  The YW leaders in my ward refuse to discuss anything about modesty with the girls so I guess that's a good thing.  But they also have more important things to worry about, like what to do with the trans girl that is demanding to go to girl's camp this year.

[MustardSeed]

Just now, gopher said:

Sure, he's probably unaware of all that.  I don't think he would have used that example if he saw the carnage in the aftermath of many of the discussions here on modesty when male posters offer up their opinions.  The YW leaders in my ward refuse to discuss anything about modesty with the girls so I guess that's a good thing.  But they also have more important things to worry about, like what to do with the trans girl that is demanding to go to girl's camp this year.

There are certainly had a lot of things to contend with when one is running a young women’s program. I think all of it matters.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, gopher said:

Sure, he's probably unaware of all that.  I don't think he would have used that example if he saw the carnage in the aftermath of many of the discussions here on modesty when male posters offer up their opinions.  The YW leaders in my ward refuse to discuss anything about modesty with the girls so I guess that's a good thing.  But they also have more important things to worry about, like what to do with the trans girl that is demanding to go to girl's camp this year.

When some male posters offer up their opinions….indicating the “carnage” is more from what the opinion is than it is that it’s from a male.

On occasion modesty in a YW’s program means wearing uncomfortable, even dangerous at times clothing, so that girls end up suffering rather than enjoying or even choosing not to go to activities, I think it is rather an important thing to talk about myself.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

When some male posters offer up their opinions….indicating the “carnage” is more from what the opinion is than it is that it’s from a male.

On occasion modesty in a YW’s program means wearing uncomfortable, even dangerous at times clothing, so that girls end up suffering rather than enjoying or even choosing not to go to activities, I think it is rather an important thing to talk about myself.

Yes, the church seems to be going backwards on the level of scrutiny on what young women wear at girl's camp. When priesthood leaders are around they get all worried that there isn't modesty and cannot even wear shorts in some stakes I've heard about. Out in 90 degree weather, terrible. And some one piece swimming suits are worse than two piece, and always stress out the girls if they're worried they aren't modest enough. I'm glad the YW leaders are aware of the situations out there. 

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, the church seems to be going backwards on the level of scrutiny on what young women wear at girl's camp. When priesthood leaders are around they get all worried that there isn't modesty and cannot even wear shorts in some stakes I've heard about. Out in 90 degree weather, terrible. And some one piece swimming suits are worse than two piece, and always stress out the girls if they're worried they aren't modest enough. I'm glad the YW leaders are aware of the situations out there. 

I don't think it is going backwards, I think it will just take time. I mean, look at the good changes with For the Strength of Youth which is huge when you think about it.  We are working with traditions that stem decades, really centuries, and I think overall we are climbing upward.  There will definitely be some dips along the way. Part of that is because people refuse to see the problems, but for the vast majority I think it's because people don't recognize them. 

I think it's good to talk about this as it helps more to recognize it, but I also think it's ok to say "there's a concern, but I'm glad overall we are doing better."

[Rain]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

Sure, he's probably unaware of all that.  I don't think he would have used that example if he saw the carnage in the aftermath of many of the discussions here on modesty when male posters offer up their opinions. 

I keep trying to figure out how to respond in a way that makes you feel safe.  What you said really makes me feel unheard, and that women in general are unheard - which I know may come across as ironic because you are saying that men are feeling unheard. And somehow I want us all to feel safe through the conversation.

I get that men feel this way and I really try to communicate in a way that doesn't make men feel what they say is unvalued, but underlying my own feelings are decades of my own life and centuries for women in general where we feel the carnage of what the talk of "modesty" has done to women. 

We get the biology thing.  We get it because it happens to us as well. We could sit here and argue if it is on the same level (assuming it is even believed that women have those biological desires), but it doesn't really get us anywhere because overall the desire makes both men and women feel those things. 

What we hear is "you should be modest because what you wear makes us think bad things." And all the modesty talk starts to make us feel dirty.  

I was just questioning my 21 year old son about this to help me respond. There was one thing he said that made me think "there! That's the key!" 

What he said, "I don't dress for how others will feel about it.  I dress the way I do because it makes me feel good." 

And that's the key because it shows the exact opposite of what girls are taught.  In church for as long as I have been living I have heard "dress this way for the men".  Not "dress because it makes you feel good."  Not "dress to be close to God."  No, "dress this way so men won't have bad thoughts."

How damaging to be told over and over and over again that if we don't dress a certain way we are causing others to sin. How beautiful if could drop the "modesty" dress talk and instead listen to the other things (like you are a daughter of God) that get drowned out with accusations of our behavior.

So I want you to be heard.  I want to hear you.  But please know we have those natural feelings too. And please, please, please hear our cries that the way modesty is usually talked about often makes us feel like an image to be lusted after and not a daughter of God.

 

2 hours ago, gopher said:

The YW leaders in my ward refuse to discuss anything about modesty with the girls so I guess that's a good thing.  But they also have more important things to worry about, like what to do with the trans girl that is demanding to go to girl's camp this year.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Rain

[MustardSeed]

I know that we have completely changed the topic, but I think we are safe at this point.
A month ago, my husband pointed out that there are some men in our new ward that don’t make it difficult to observe that they stare at me. So last Sunday I wore some old Birkenstock shoes, and a very frumpy old dress, and sat in the back. The reason I did this is because it makes me really uncomfortable for my husband to point this out. I feel as though I’ve done something wrong, and as though he’s accusing me of something. 

 

I think tomorrow I will wear a new dress with pretty heels and I will wear make up. I like to look pretty sometimes. And tomorrow is Easter.

I’m going to request of my husband that if other men staring at me makes him uncomfortable we can talk about the discomfort that he feels. But I no longer want to make myself invisible so that he feels more comfortable. I have not done anything wrong.

Edited April 7, 2023 by MustardSeed

[CA Steve]

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

How damaging to be told over and over and over again that if we don't dress a certain way we are causing others to sin. How beautiful if could drop the "modesty" dress talk and instead listen to the other things (like you are a daughter of God) that get drowned out with accusations of our behavior.

Maybe we need to amend the 2nd article of faith to say:

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins except when Eve wears a strapless gown.

😔

[Ragerunner]

56 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Maybe we need to amend the 2nd article of faith to say:

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins except when Eve wears a strapless gown.

😔

Every time I see this topic I alway think, what if all the young men were asked not to wear athletic shorts to church activities because you can see their bulge and it might make girls have inappropriate thoughts. Or that the men need to stop wearing dress pants to church because they frequent show a guys bulge when he is standing or sitting. 

We need to focus on teaching that we need to learn to control ourselves not others. 

I feel bad for what some of the teachings over the years on this subject have done to women in the church, young and old.

[Dario_M]

20 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Dario you want to share your feelings? 

Yeah. You said that modesty doesn't count for males. But that is not true. 

In my church i need to wear long pands on sunday in church. And long T-shirt. Otherwise i may not enter my church. Short pands are not allowed in my church. I need to cover my legs completaly. That count for us man. 

So what do you mean modesty doesn't count for man as well?

Plus i may also not wear a cap in the church on sunday in the church service. Wich is fussed up for me because i'm gettinh bald. And i just wanna cover me head (hair line) But even though i have problems with that i still may not wear a cap. Modesty also counts for man in the church.

I really don't understand how you came up with that idea that modesty doesn't count for man in the church as well insted for only for females. 😖

Edited April 8, 2023 by Dario_M

[SeekingUnderstanding]

22 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

There are multiple possible messages that come out of that story.1. Only attractive girls should wear two-piece swimsuits. 2. Unattractive girls need not apply 3. Wearing one piece swimsuits will make you righteous enough to win the guy 4. what a girl wears to the beach, should matter to anybody. 5. Once again girls bodies are up for discussion but modesty for boys is rarely a topic.

The only comment that should have come from that story was a condemnation for the guy approaching the girl and talking about her swimsuit. “You men, it’s never your business what a woman is wearing. How dare you approach a woman on the beach and speak to her this way”

[SeekingUnderstanding]

19 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Hormones can be pretty powerful. 

For women as well as men, which you seem to ignore. And teaching women it’s their responsibility to regulate men’s emotions is horribly immoral, toxic and damaging. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[MustardSeed]

54 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

For women as well as men, which you seem to ignore. And teaching women it’s their responsibility to regulate men’s emotions is horribly immoral, toxic and damaging. 

Men and women would benefit from coming to understand female desire. ❤️

[MustardSeed]

Thank you Dario, I’d much rather hear what you have to say than just wonder with the downvote. 

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

For women as well as men, which you seem to ignore. And teaching women it’s their responsibility to regulate men’s emotions is horribly immoral, toxic and damaging. 

Thank you for reading the worst into my comments. 
Just because one is writing about men doesn’t mean that they are ignoring women, just that those comments dealt with men. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by ksfisher

[SeekingUnderstanding]

46 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Thank you for reading the worst into my comments. 
Just because one is writing about men doesn’t mean that they are ignoring women, just that those comments dealt with men. 

Except when you respond to posters here you specifically ignore stuff like this: “What is missing from the conversation is the fact that girls also feel desire ”

 

 That’s fine, but it’s absolutely telling. When you last purchased a piece of clothing, exactly how many seconds did you spend thinking about how that article of clothing would impact the women around you? What about the gay men around you?

Edited April 8, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[MustardSeed]

I don’t think anyone is a bad guy here, not elder gong or anyone in this discussion.  These are reasonably new ideas that are being introduced and it takes time to adjust.  I just invite us to consider the impact of imbalanced presentation and to trust women when we say, “this is a problem for us. “

Edited April 8, 2023 by MustardSeed

[gopher]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

When some male posters offer up their opinions….indicating the “carnage” is more from what the opinion is than it is that it’s from a male.

On occasion modesty in a YW’s program means wearing uncomfortable, even dangerous at times clothing, so that girls end up suffering rather than enjoying or even choosing not to go to activities, I think it is rather an important thing to talk about myself.

To clarify, the carnage I'm referring to are those men who not only offer their opinions, but double down and triple down after repeatedly being informed that they weren't listening to the concerns of the women posting.  I wasn't saying I was one of them, I was making fun of them.

If modesty is indeed an important topic to discuss with the YW, I hope the YW leaders can find the best way to do it.  But right now, the topic is avoided (according to my gopher pup in the program who is frustrated by the silence).

[gopher]

20 hours ago, Rain said:

I keep trying to figure out how to respond in a way that makes you feel safe.  What you said really makes me feel unheard, and that women in general are unheard - which I know may come across as ironic because you are saying that men are feeling unheard. And somehow I want us all to feel safe through the conversation.

Sorry for the confusion, I don't feel unsafe and unheard.  And I think your comments were important and valuable.

My purpose in entering this thread was because I thought it was hilarious that Tacenda thought it was Elder Gong who commented to the girl about her modest swimsuit.  And after a few others replied to her comment, I wondered if others may have thought the same.

I also wanted to defend Elder Gong who gave his talk on ministering instead of modesty.  I think he could have avoided this misunderstanding with a slight change in his story:

She was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and instead of saying, "Get lost, perv!!!", asked with a smile, “Would you like to come to church Sunday?”

(bold added by me)