Trib Article: "What is religious and what is political?"

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

I used to deny climate change many years ago but as I thought about it more it made sense.  Also as I read the views of what would happen in the world before the second coming (wars, famines and other natural disasters) and compared it to what people say will happen with climate change, I came to conclude that climate change plays a key role in the last days events.  Rather than fearing climate change and try to avoided the unavoidable, better to prepare to endure through it.  The scriptures and the prophets tell us what  will happen before Christ comes.  The science of climate change gives us some reasons of why it will happen.   When the Lord says in D&C 1 that he knows of the calamity that is coming to the earth, I believe that includes climate change.  The Lord knew man would burn fossil fuels, increase CO2 and that would bring world wide calamity.   I am ok with climate change.

If anything, the LDS church is a church where climate change is part of our doctrine.  We believe that one day that the earth will receive its celestial glory.  That is the mother of all climate change.

I don't think we need to be accepting of bad things just because we may see them as being foreseen in the scriptures.

The Lord warns that people will be wicked and that bad thing will happen, and then He invites us to change.  We may not be able to change the world, but we can do a small part.

Edited August 26, 2022 by ksfisher

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I don't think we need to be accepting of bad things just because we may seen them as being foreseen in the scriptures.

The Lord warns that people will be wicked and that bad thing will happen, and then He invites us to change.  We may not be able to change the world, but we can do a small part.

Not saying we should not do anything but I don't worry about climate change or a lot of other things going on in the world.  Everything is progressing as it supposed to go.  Even the secularization of the world and people turning away from religion is part of what is supposed to happen.  At some point, the Lord withdraws the missionaries and begins a new sermon of a series of disasters.    I am just not stressing about climate change.  We can't turn back the clock.  CO2 emissions will continue to increase.  Even as we "decarbonize", more carbon will be released by melting permafrost which will negate most of of the efforts made.  I just approach the issue with realistic expectations.  The table is being set for the last days events.  It may not make me happy to go through these bad times but it has to happen for the Lord to come back. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I don't think we need to be accepting of bad things just because we may seen them as being foreseen in the scriptures.

The Lord warns that people will be wicked and that bad thing will happen, and then He invites us to change.  We may not be able to change the world, but we can do a small part.

Do you think humans have the power to keep all of the calamities spoken of that will come before second coming, from happening?

Sincere question. Could we, if we chose, stop the the famines, pestilences, oceans from heaving beyond its bounds, etc that the scriptures say will happen before Christ comes again?

It’s an interesting concept.

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do you think humans have the power to keep all of the calamities spoken of that will come before second coming, from happening?

Sincere question. Could we, if we chose, stop the the famines, pestilences, oceans from heaving beyond its bounds, etc that the scriptures say will happen before Christ comes again?

It’s an interesting concept.

I don’t think we should assume human-made catastrophes are fulfillment of prophecy and therefore are inevitable. We are supposed to be good stewards, not fatalists. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by jkwilliams

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do you think humans have the power to keep all of the calamities spoken of that will come before second coming, from happening?

Sincere question. Could we, if we chose, stop the the famines, pestilences, oceans from heaving beyond its bounds, etc that the scriptures say will happen before Christ comes again?

It’s an interesting concept.

There seems to be certain things within our power.  I think doing everything we can to avert a climate disaster is what the Lord expects us to do.  We are His stewards on this planet and I think He would like us to be wise stewards.

So man made problems I think we should do our best to avert.

Wars are our choice.  We can choose not to have a war.  Unfortunately humans, when faced with the choice of having or not having a war usually seem to choose to have one.

As for all the calamities, I don't know.  Natural disasters have always been part of life on this planet and there is nothing we can do to stop that.

Edited August 26, 2022 by ksfisher

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t think we should assume human-made catastrophes are fulfillment of prophecy and there are inevitable. We are supposed to be good stewards, not fatalists. 

We personally can be good stewards while also seeing that world disasters (man made or not) can be fulfillment of prophecy.  Over human history I would not consider disasters, man made or not as fulfillment of prophecy.  They have been local or regional in scope and short lived.   Why make these normal events a part of signs of the last days? 

I think it is because they are fundamentally different in the last days than in other times in history in terms of intensity and scope of size.  Right now it is not just the Colorado river drying up but rivers in Europe including the Rhine.  Rivers in Asia as well are under stress.  If this is due to climate change, and CO2 levels continue to rise, these events will only get worse as level rise.  Having a famine in a place like eastern Africa would not be a last days sign.  Having a half dozen famines going on at the same time all over the world is a little different.  That would be a last days sign in my opinion.

Disasters cause internal problems in countries.  People flee to other countries.  Refugee floods cause stresses in these countries.  If one wants war poured out on all nations, a good way to get us to that is have countries all over the world under stress of disasters and refugee floods.  Climate change is not a temporary shift of the world. It basically is a change that will exist for many decades or perhaps centuries.  This change and what it is said to entail fits the conditions of the last days better than the climate we are leaving that has been around for thousands of years.

Edited August 26, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t think we should assume human-made catastrophes are fulfillment of prophecy and therefore are inevitable. We are supposed to be good stewards, not fatalists. 

True, but the scriptures are full of human-made catastrophes that were a fulfillment of prophecy.

Also, is there any scenario where being a good steward of the earth according to God’s interpretation, includes not putting the earth first?

I’m not at all advocating against environmentalism. I’m more wondering, are there any circumstances where taking care of the people requires some trade off to the environment?

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

If this is due to climate change, and CO2 levels continue to rise, these events will only get worse as level rise. 

Its all your fault carbon dioxide!

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do you think humans have the power to keep all of the calamities spoken of that will come before second coming, from happening?

I think we have the power and ability, I just don't think we have the will. 

I think our situation is akin to Noah's situation.  Noah knew the floods were coming.  That didn't stop him from crying repentance to the people to try and delay its coming or save as many souls as possible.   This will be the second baptism, so I think it is a pretty fair comparison.  We should be as Noah in trying to save the world despite prophecy.  

We do have prophecies of what is to come.  We don't necessarily know what is literal, nor do we know the timing of these events.  If we can make this planet more livable for my children and their children in the mean time, then I will make effort to do my part at least.  

 

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think we have the power and ability, I just don't think we have the will. 

I think our situation is akin to Noah's situation.  Noah knew the floods were coming.  That didn't stop him from crying repentance to the people to try and delay its coming or save as many souls as possible.   This will be the second baptism, so I think it is a pretty fair comparison.  We should be as Noah in trying to save the world despite prophecy.  

We do have prophecies of what is to come.  We don't necessarily know what is literal, nor do we know the timing of these events.  If we can make this planet more livable for my children and their children in the mean time, then I will make effort to do my part at least.  

 

I get it and you make some good points.

I think the most notable difference is that the prophecy for Noah always included the provision for repentance to bring about a different outcome. It doesn’t seem like the prophecies concerning the natural disasters before the second coming are optional or based on our use of agency.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Sincere question. Could we, if we chose, stop the the famines, pestilences, oceans from heaving beyond its bounds, etc that the scriptures say will happen before Christ comes again?

It’s an interesting concept.

Thinking like this makes me very wary of religion and religious people in general. Both Jesus and Paul thought the end of the world would happen in their life times. And here we are 2000 years later. Apocalypticism Might be a fine religious tenet, but keep it the heck away from public policy decisions. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, pogi said:

We certainly live in two different worlds.

Probably quite true. Earlier this year, our government gave us a date by which our natural gas network will be switched off and ripped out. It's not just enough to switch it off, apparently, because that leaves a risk that a less 'progressive/green' future government might switch it back on. Before then -- at our own expense, of course -- we must replace all our gas heating, water heating, and cooking and also pay to be disconnected from the network.

The only legal replacement options for heating and water heating are heat pumps, not conventional heaters. The problem is that heat pumps work by concentrating heat from the outside air, and I live in a climate that regularly drops below 0 in the winter time. Imagine trying to heat enough water for showers with an air conditioner when it's -8C outside!

One of my mates from Church bought a unit with one of these new earth-saving water heaters. It takes up a quarter of his courtyard and runs literally 'round the clock in the winter. If he is foolish enough to take a shower at night or wash a load of whites, there will be no hot water the next morning.

Meanwhile, our hospitality industry has said there is no viable alternative to cooking meals commercially without gas. Our captive government doesn't care.

And in fact, they have now given us a date by which it will no longer be legal to buy a petrol- or diesel-powered car. Automakers have said they will not have viable alternatives in large enough quantities by that date, but never mind.

This is what it looks like when the 'wackos' take over. And it doesn't require a majority. Our government is a two-party coalition, and the senior party openly said in the last election that ripping out domestic and commercial natural gas was madness, but when it came time to form a government, they apparently all experienced a very quick change of heart ...

We keep hearing about the possibility of future 'climate refugees'. I suspect I will end up a 'climate policy refugee'. I have already started making plans to move in the next ten years, and everyone in my office is doing the same.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I get it and you make some good points.

I think the most notable difference is that the prophecy for Noah always included the provision for repentance to bring about a different outcome. It doesn’t seem like the prophecies concerning the natural disasters before the second coming are optional or based on our use of agency.

 

There are some Second Coming prophecies that are, to a degree, conditional.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Thinking like this makes me very wary of religion and religious people in general. Both Jesus and Paul thought the end of the world would happen in their life times. And here we are 2000 years later. Apocalypticism Might be a fine religious tenet, but keep it the heck away from public policy decisions. 

The only reason my questions should make you wary is if you make a lot of assumptions about what they mean that aren’t true. 😁

[SeekingUnderstanding]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The only reason my questions should make you wary is if you make a lot of assumptions about what they mean that aren’t true. 😁

Your right and I’m sorry. I should have clarified better and it was CO2 that set me off not you. You are always so level headed and even handed. 

[rodheadlee]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:07 PM, jkwilliams said:

What I wonder is why so many members of the church are so opposed to environmental conservation. My parents and many of my relatives act like environmentalists are the spawn of Satan. 

They are the spawn of Satan. They stop every large Public Works project with lawsuits. It cost us billions of dollars and nothing gets done. An example is the desalination plant in Huntington Beach. They have been trying to get permits for that for 25 years but no all the Greenies are against it now we're having seven years of drought and we have no plant in Huntington Beach. Santa Barbara has one, San Diego has one, but not Huntington Beach.

Elon Musk built star Base in Texas. Now the Greenies don't want them to launch starships from the base. Why did they let him build the base in the first place? This stuff is gone beyond ridiculous and there are many examples. Don't get me started on this subject it's one of my pet peeves.

I believe once the project has started and the permits have been given and ground has been broken you should not be able to stop it with lawsuits and red tape. That pipeline up from Canada through the Dakotas to Texas for Shale oil is another fine example. Millions of dollars were wasted, people's lives were affected when it was shut down in the middle of the project.

Edited August 27, 2022 by rodheadlee

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Do you think humans have the power to keep all of the calamities spoken of that will come before second coming, from happening?

Sincere question. Could we, if we chose, stop the the famines, pestilences, oceans from heaving beyond its bounds, etc that the scriptures say will happen before Christ comes again?

It’s an interesting concept.

Personally, I think so, mostly. Sometime I had this prompting that we were not here to plan for the apocalypse but to plan and work for zion. To me apocalyptic books, including the BoM had sooooo much to do with the people's decisions. Revelation, mentions calamity and it may seem in parallel to the actions of the people, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. For example most of the 4 horsemen are often human caused (war for example). In the BoM it talks about the great and abominable church in tones similar to certain things in Rev that are also strongly tied to human institutions based on gain, greed, and general materialism. We cause the apocalypse in many regards. Likewise, opposite to that, Zion to me is a covenant. It's our part to make a unified society not based on human persuits for gain but christ-like values and interactions with those around us. It's how we make sure there is no poor around us. My job isn't to get hyperfocused on the follies of the world, but to make the world better by any proper means that I have. I can do that in my church calling, in my interactions with others, in my vote, and in my voice/actions in the world. That's my focus and IMHO what we are commanded to do.

 

With luv,

BD  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

They are the spawn of Satan. They stop every large Public Works project with lawsuits. It cost us billions of dollars and nothing gets done. An example is the desalination plant in Huntington Beach. They have been trying to get permits for that for 25 years but no all the Greenies are against it now we're having seven years of drought and we have no plant in Huntington Beach. Santa Barbara has one, San Diego has one, but not Huntington Beach.

Elon Musk built star Base in Texas. Now the Greenies don't want them to launch starships from the base. Why did they let him build the base in the first place? This stuff is gone beyond ridiculous and there are many examples. Don't get me started on this subject it's one of my pet peeves.

I believe once the project has started and the permits have been given and ground has been broken you should not be able to stop it with lawsuits and red tape. That pipeline up from Canada through the Dakotas to Texas for Shale oil is another fine example. Millions of dollars were wasted, people's lives were affected when it was shut down in the middle of the project.

The desalination plant was constructed by bad actors and violated several state laws. The same company built a desalination plant near San Diego and water costs to consumers almost tripled because of the deals the plant made in advance.

Shale oil is an ecological disaster and the crap it produces both on-site at extraction and elsewhere is ridiculous. If you want to know what kinds of wounds would make the Earth cry out in pain in Enoch’s vision:

That used to be greenery.

Most of the pipeline was completed and is used. Only the last phase was cancelled. There was virtually no domestic disruption. The oil being transported was Canadian. The idea that it was vital to US oil production was a commonly repeated myth.

[JustAnAustralian]

14 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Luckily blatant denial is declining. What’s happening more in a softer version of denial. Denying how bad it is, what it’ll take to slow it down enough, or the cause for it is now more common. 

Part of the reason for that is that people who aren't climate scientists (or any form of scientist) either directly make claims or misinterpret what climate scientists have said, and then make grand claims about how bad it really is. Have a look through https://extinctionclock.org. For example based on media articles , the Arctic was meant to be ice free by 2000, then 2004, then they swapped to ice free arctic summers in 2008, then 2012, then 2013, then 2014, then 2015, then 2016,  then 2017. They're now saying 2044.

It's pretty easy so see why people are going to claim that it isn't as serious as they say, or that scientists don't know what they are on about when the media makes grand claims.

Don't worry though, humans are apparently going to be extinct in three years so we won't need to deal with it for long https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/86778981/climate-change-specialist-predicts-human-extinction-in-10-years

 

edit: Yes climate change is real. Yes it's getting worse. Yes we need to change our lifestyles if we want to try and move it in the other direction. Alas I don't think society as a whole is willing to do that.

Edited August 27, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[MiserereNobis]

15 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

CO2 emissions will continue to increase. 

Yep, every time you post 😁

[carbon dioxide]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:07 PM, jkwilliams said:

What I wonder is why so many members of the church are so opposed to environmental conservation.

I am only opposed with environmental conservation is tied to government mandates.   For example I have no problem with EV cars. I have a BIG problem with California and other governments banning ICE cars.  The consumer should have a choice.  If EV cars are better, the market will decide on its own.  When government bans things, it takes away choice.  I thought democrats were pro choice but usually that only involves abortion. When it comes to cars, guns, health care, appliances, lawnmowers,  many democrats who say they are pro choice are anti choice.  I am tired of the slogans that are clearly lies.  Since CO2 emissions are quite large in the meat industry, I see a day when government will severely restrict our access to meat.  Government rarely gives us more freedom and when government involves itself into the environment, we can expect less freedom and choice. 

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There are some Second Coming prophecies that are, to a degree, conditional.

Definitely.  I'm specifically talking about the ones dealing with natural disaster type stuff.

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Personally, I think so, mostly. Sometime I had this prompting that we were not here to plan for the apocalypse but to plan and work for zion. To me apocalyptic books, including the BoM had sooooo much to do with the people's decisions. Revelation, mentions calamity and it may seem in parallel to the actions of the people, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. For example most of the 4 horsemen are often human caused (war for example). In the BoM it talks about the great and abominable church in tones similar to certain things in Rev that are also strongly tied to human institutions based on gain, greed, and general materialism. We cause the apocalypse in many regards. Likewise, opposite to that, Zion to me is a covenant. It's our part to make a unified society not based on human persuits for gain but christ-like values and interactions with those around us. It's how we make sure there is no poor around us. My job isn't to get hyperfocused on the follies of the world, but to make the world better by any proper means that I have. I can do that in my church calling, in my interactions with others, in my vote, and in my voice/actions in the world. That's my focus and IMHO what we are commanded to do.

 

With luv,

BD  

I completely agree.

I'm not wondering whether or not we should try to change stuff, only whether or not we actually could make so many changes that Christ's second coming could happen without the "bad" prophecies from the bible ever happening.

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The desalination plant was constructed by bad actors and violated several state laws. The same company built a desalination plant near San Diego and water costs to consumers almost tripled because of the deals the plant made in advance.

Shale oil is an ecological disaster and the crap it produces both on-site at extraction and elsewhere is ridiculous. If you want to know what kinds of wounds would make the Earth cry out in pain in Enoch’s vision:

That used to be greenery.

Most of the pipeline was completed and is used. Only the last phase was cancelled. There was virtually no domestic disruption. The oil being transported was Canadian. The idea that it was vital to US oil production was a commonly repeated myth.

Where was this picture taken?  I'm wondering because these are what shale extraction sites usually look like in the US.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by bluebell

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Where was this picture taken?  I'm wondering because these are what shale extraction sites usually look like in the US.

 

I think he misspoke. Google tar sand mines Canada. Different technology than shale extraction.