Did God create The Universe?

[DT_]

In 2011 Reuters reported, " God’s mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said on Thursday. "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-bigbang-idUSTRE7052OC20110106

I have some questions for believers.

Was Gen 1:3 describing the creation of the Universe or the Earth? Or was the language of Genesis 1 merely metaphorical? 

Please share your opinions.

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, DT_ said:

In 2011 Reuters reported, " God’s mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said on Thursday. "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-bigbang-idUSTRE7052OC20110106

I have some questions for believers.

Was Gen 1:3 describing the creation of the Universe or the Earth? Or was the language of Genesis 1 merely metaphorical? 

Please share your opinions.

 

Genesis is describing the creation of our solar system, and our earth, not the universe. This isn't made clear in Genesis, but in Moses 1 it is very clearly laid out that God  told Moses about this earth, but even though He made many more, those others were "out of scope".

7 And now, behold, this one thing I show unto thee, Moses, my son, for thou art in the world, and now I show it unto thee.
8 And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered.
9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

Later, after his strength returned, and after he had an interview with Satan, God returned to him to tell him more...

27 And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the Spirit of God.
28 And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore.
29 And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.
30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?
31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

So God tells Moses that He has created lots of earths, and many Adams...

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

What are "heavens"? More solar systems, or more universes? We don't know, but God does...

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Which is God telling Moses that this earth isn't the first, and it won't be the last. He's just going to keep creating them and populating them with His children

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Stargazer

[CV75]

2 hours ago, DT_ said:

In 2011 Reuters reported, " God’s mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said on Thursday. "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-bigbang-idUSTRE7052OC20110106

I have some questions for believers.

Was Gen 1:3 describing the creation of the Universe or the Earth? Or was the language of Genesis 1 merely metaphorical? 

Please share your opinions.

 

Genesis 1:3 is, "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." So I'll assume you mean Chapters 1 through 3 (?) to refer to the Universe or the Earth. Inasmuch as scriptural language is metaphorical, I would not consider it to be "merely," as in "not important or effective" in teaching spiritual principles. I think this passage of scripture is an account, from a 14th century BCE perspective, to convey that God literally organized and gave us everything we need for an abundant immortal life (pre-Fall, and by extension, pre-mortal and post-mortal lives) and mortal life. Not only does this involve the material creations of the "seven days" but commandments and covenants addressing our spiritual, and by extension, temporal, well-being.

Edited August 13, 2022 by CV75

[Rivers]

According to classical theism as I understand it, there needed to be a First Cause for the universe to come into existence.  If every cause is contingent on another cause, the First Cause had to be caused by something uncreated and self-existent.  And that uncreated something is God.  So yes, God Created the universe.  
 

And I don’t believe this line of thinking necessarily conflicts with Restoration theology.

[longview]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

And that uncreated something is God.  So yes, God Created the universe.

And I don’t believe this line of thinking necessarily conflicts with Restoration theology.

All the intelligences were also uncreated and have always existed.  Therefor the Universe had no beginning and will have no ending.  I personally believe the Universe to be infinite and the number of intelligences to be infinite.  Thus the work, the generations, Eternal Rounds will never end.

[DT_]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Genesis is describing the creation of our solar system, and our earth, not the universe. This isn't made clear in Genesis, but in Moses 1 it is very clearly laid out that God  told Moses about this earth, but even though He made many more, those others were "out of scope".

I see. Do you believe God caused the Big Bang?

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by DT_

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Genesis is describing the creation of our solar system, and our earth, not the universe. This isn't made clear in Genesis, but in Moses 1 it is very clearly laid out that God  told Moses about this earth, but even though He made many more, those others were "out of scope".

7 And now, behold, this one thing I show unto thee, Moses, my son, for thou art in the world, and now I show it unto thee.
8 And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered.
9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

Later, after his strength returned, and after he had an interview with Satan, God returned to him to tell him more...

27 And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the Spirit of God.
28 And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore.
29 And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.
30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?
31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

So God tells Moses that He has created lots of earths, and many Adams...

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

What are "heavens"? More solar systems, or more universes? We don't know, but God does...

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Which is God telling Moses that this earth isn't the first, and it won't be the last. He's just going to keep creating them and populating them with His children

 

I believe this describes the creation of our galaxy not just the solar system.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, longview said:

All the intelligences were also uncreated and have always existed.  Therefor the Universe had no beginning and will have no ending.  I personally believe the Universe to be infinite and the number of intelligences to be infinite.  Thus the work, the generations, Eternal Rounds will never end.

Point.

[Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, DT_ said:

I see. Do you believe God caused the Big Bang?

Of course. Who else?

I have a great deal of admiration for physicists, especially astrophysicists. Always wanted to be one, myself.  I especially admire Stephen Hawking. In his last published book, the one that was in development at the time of his death, "Brief Answers to the Big Questions", his Chapter One, of course, is "Is There a God?"  And, of course, (surprise, surprise!) there isn't! He writes:

"I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science." 

And why does he think this?

"As we travel back in time towards the moment of the Big Bang, the universe gets smaller and smaller and smaller, until it finally comes to a point where the whole universe is a space so small that it is in effect a single infinitesimally small, infinitesimally dense black hole. And just as with modern-day black holes, floating around in space, the laws of nature dictate something quite extraordinary. They tell us that here too time itself must come to a stop. You can’t get to a time before the Big Bang because there was no time before the Big Bang. We have finally found something that doesn’t have a cause, because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means that there is no possibility of a creator, because there is no time for a creator to have existed in."

No doubt he thought this was a huge GOTCHA moment. I myself had an amazing realization while reading this. 

Whatever one thinks of Big Bangs, the brilliant Hawking seems to have missed a very important absurdity in these last two sentences.

In one sense, Hawking is correct. But in a more fundamental one, he is utterly wrong. In order for a creator to have created the Big Bang, he could not possibly be in the universe he was then creating, because it would have required that He create Himself. This is an absurdity, which of course Hawking recognizes. But who says that the Creator was in the universe that He created? It's a completely unwarranted assumption. The Cause of the universe had to have caused it from outside that universe -- and thus the argument that "there [was] no time for a creator to have existed in" fails.

In other written works, Hawking was very clear that there are some places that physicists cannot go, because physics itself breaks down in them (or what passes for what we know of physics breaks down). One of those places is inside a black hole. Or for that matter any singularity. Another such place is outside the universe itself, because such a place is in essence division by zero. Or, in other words, it is undefined. 

When you come right down to it, in order to be God, God has to exist outside this universe. He knows it from the moment of the Big Bang to the moment of the Big Freeze (speaking of the heat death of the universe, some multiple quintillions of years hence). Whatever has happened in the past from our point of view He knows all of it. Whatever will happen in the future from our point of view he knows all of it as if it has already happened. Because to Him, it has happened already. He is not a creature of Time; He is Time's Creator. To utilize a science fiction trope, he is the ultimate Time Lord and Dr. Who has nothing on Him. 

I have been gazing at stars for nearly 71 years. The more I learn, the more convinced I become that God lives, and that He created this universe for His purposes. And His purposes are you and I. 

[Stargazer]

19 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I believe this describes the creation of our galaxy not just the solar system.

You're limiting it to our galaxy? What happens when our galaxy merges with the Andromeda galaxy in 2 billion years? Although I hate to break it to you, the merger is already taking place.

 

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Rivers said:

And I don’t believe this line of thinking necessarily conflicts with Restoration theology.

It can't.

[manol]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

In order for a creator to have created the Big Bang, he could not possibly be in the universe he was then creating, because it would have required that He create Himself. This is an absurdity, which of course Hawking recognizes. But who says that the Creator was in the universe that He created? It's a completely unwarranted assumption. The Cause of the universe had to have caused it from outside that universe -- and thus the argument that "there [was] no time for a creator to have existed in" fails.

BRILLIANT!!

[rodheadlee]

18 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You're limiting it to our galaxy? What happens when our galaxy merges with the Andromeda galaxy in 2 billion years? Although I hate to break it to you, the merger is already taking place.

 

And the twain shall become one. 

[Chum]

33 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

What happens when our galaxy merges with the Andromeda galaxy in 2 billion years?

I'm sure the DoJ has their rubber stamp ready.

[DT_]

57 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

When you come right down to it, in order to be God, God has to exist outside this universe. He knows it from the moment of the Big Bang to the moment of the Big Freeze (speaking of the heat death of the universe, some multiple quintillions of years hence).

Interesting.  In some cosmological models, the Big Bang was the result of quantum fluctuations. Other models describe the Big Bang as a Big Crunch. You said the scriptures describe the creation of the solar system. The scriptures make no mention of God existing outside this universe.  In your view, are Latter-Day Saints required to believe that God created the Universe?   

[Kenngo1969]

32 minutes ago, DT_ said:

... You said the scriptures describe the creation of the solar system. The scriptures make no mention of God existing outside this universe. ...

At a minimum, they imply that He does.  Referring to his vision of the premortal life, Abraham writes: "And there stood one among them [premortal spirits] that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell ..."  Abraham 3:24, ellipses mine of course.  By definition, one cannot go somewhere if He is there already.

[CA Steve]

I thought we believed that matter was eternal and if so, how could the LDS God create the universe? Don't we believe that God organized it?

[Kenngo1969]

27 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I thought we believed that matter was eternal and if so, how could the LDS God create the universe? Don't we believe that God organized it?

Yep.  We don't believe in creation ex nihilo. 🙂

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I thought we believed that matter was eternal and if so, how could the LDS God create the universe? Don't we believe that God organized it?

Yes.

Also, "the Universe" is kind of a generic term.  It can mean everything that exists or it could mean one of many universes containing many galaxies.

[InCognitus]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You're limiting it to our galaxy? What happens when our galaxy merges with the Andromeda galaxy in 2 billion years? Although I hate to break it to you, the merger is already taking place.

We realign and reorganize wards and stakes, so why not galaxies?  

[MrShorty]

More than a decade ago, Blake Ostler made this observation:

Quote

The primary task of Mormon theology for the foreseeable future is to assess its relationship to naturalism and the scientific worldview. Many Mormons view God as located within and limited by our "particular universe," which began some fourteen billion years ago with the big bang and is thus subject to all of the limitations of natural law. Others see God as transcending the existing natural universe because God is the organizer not only of this universe, but of many others. God's relationship to the natural universe, whether God had a beginning of his divinity, and whether God is at the mercy of limitations of natural laws, remain major issues for Mormon thinkers to work out.

https://www.patheos.com/resources/additional-resources/2010/08/the-challenges-of-non-existent-mormon-theology

Half a decade ago, I started this thread on a different forum to explore the possible "scopes" of God's creation (planet/solar system or galaxy or universe)

https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/61190-what-is-the-scope-of-gods-creation/

Nothing was concluded, but we explored several different ideas (including something like Kolob theorem where God creates/organizes at the galaxy level).

The real challenge I see to answering the question is that our only claims to revelation on the topic of cosmology come from canonized scripture, and canonized scripture sure seems to suggest that God will tailor such revelation to the worldview/cosmology of the people receiving the revelation. The cosmology of Moses seems heavily rooted in ancient Israel's "flat disc Earth sandwiched between the waters of heaven and hell" universe. I've seen it said that Abraham's cosmology seems to pertain to an Egyptian/Aristotelian/Ptolemaic "geocentric spheres within spheres" model. Joseph Smith's cosmology seems to be rooted in something very Newtonian -- an infinite universe that exists eternally and a being of suitable knowledge and skill can move around infinitely within that universe and organize galaxies and planetary systems as said being desires with no limits in terms of space, matter, and time. Of course, none of these cosmologies really reflects our current "big bang" cosmology, so the scriptures never really seem to overlay (or concord as Ben Spackman might put it) with our current understanding of the universe.

At the end of the day, I tend to shrug in uncertainty. Personally, I find myself partial to "God created the entire universe" models (usually visualized as snow globes on His workbench or simulations in His computer or something of that sort). But there is so much lacking in my ability to fathom any of this that I don't hold to any of it very strongly.

[Saint Bonaventure]

As Solomonia, the mother of the Maccabees said, "look at the earth and sky and everything in them, and consider how God made them out of what did not exist, and that human beings come into being in the same way." (2 Macc. 7:28)

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, DT_ said:

Interesting.  In some cosmological models, the Big Bang was the result of quantum fluctuations.

That was Hawking's view. I imagine he thinks differently now.

10 hours ago, DT_ said:

Other models describe the Big Bang as a Big Crunch. You said the scriptures describe the creation of the solar system. The scriptures make no mention of God existing outside this universe. 

The scriptures don't say a lot of things that happen to be the case. For example, the scriptures say nothing about the planet Uranus. Does this mean a Christian should not believe in the planet Uranus?

10 hours ago, DT_ said:

In your view, are Latter-Day Saints required to believe that God created the Universe?   

"Required"?  LOL!  Why would that be a requirement?  There are plenty of LDS church members who are atheists. Some of them post here, in fact. Some of them may even hold temple recommends (probably fraudulently, but that's between them and God).

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, DT_ said:

The scriptures make no mention of God existing outside this universe.

Of course they do. I believe I quoted some of them -- they are very explicit in saying that God created the universe, and logically, the only place God could have been when he created it was outside it. Unless one wants to assert the absurdity that Hawking seems to have missed, that God would have had to create Himself at the same time He created the universe.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

We realign and reorganize wards and stakes, so why not galaxies?  

Why not, indeed? LOL!

What the Hubble and now the James Webb telescopes see when they do a deep field image surely all belong to Him.