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Did God create The Universe?


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On 8/13/2022 at 6:59 PM, Rivers said:

That’s understandable that you’d be confused.  I’m trying to think through things in my head and the thoughts are just spilling out into words. So they probably aren’t making sense.  
 

What I’m trying to do is mesh the theology of my faith with that of mainstream Christianity.   Maybe it’s a futile effort.  
 

But you make an interesting point.  You believe that Christ condescended into human form becoming God and man.  I’m wondering if the same thing could be said of the embodied being we call God the Father. A being outside time and space condescending into a body.  
 

This is an idea that literally popped into my head not very long ago.  So it’s probably not very well thought out. 

I think you are exactly right

Christ did not pay a bill fot sin with his life,- impossible! The sacrifice was giving up his transcendence in order to feel and heal every wound of humanity through his infinite empathy; He could not do that without being fully human.

He who underwent all, overcame all.

But he also only did what he saw his Father do.

😪

Edited by mfbukowski
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9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Furthermore it would require a God who was completely transcendent- that means NOT part of the universe itself.  He would have to be "outside" the universe in order to "Cause" it- 

I believe that I have discussed in other places this business of God not being part of the universe itself in order to create it -- because if He were part of it, this would necessitate His creating Himself. Which is an absurdity. God not being an absurdity, one must conclude that in order to create the universe, he had to be outside it.

Which necessitates the proposal of there being not just multiple universes, but something one might call The Metaverse. Not meaning the metaverse described in the science fiction novel Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, but a plane of existence which is above and beyond any and all universes. Which would be where God actually dwells. Kolob is nearest God, not where God is, after all. His actual dwelling place is not identified in any scripture. I suppose that if he told us His actual address, he'd be plagued by autograph-seekers and paparazzi.

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

God could not have a material body- "refined matter" or not- and of course we know that even spirit is matter- so pre-existent matter is crucial to the existence of the universe. No spirits in the pre-earth life! 

God's body is surely material, but material in what sense? Perhaps this "refined matter" is what we call "dark matter".

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

God could not be our "Father" if he could not be part of a chain of "fathers" either.  Who/ what was the "First God/Father"?  Seeing God as the Organizer is the basis of most of our doctrines.   It is also the way Hebrews in the OT saw it- as I read it God "defined" light and darkness, land and sea etc as part of "opposition in all things-" also which is the height of human reasoning.   He "Called" things into existence through the Word, representing human reasoning through the Messenger.

Just look up "first cause" and find all the arguments against it.

https://iep.utm.edu/hume-causation/#:~:text=Hume argues that we cannot,nothing more than this certainty.

If one wants to go down the rabbit hole, try to ponder why does anything exist? Why do you exist? Positing that God always existed, that He was always just there, answers nothing. The old-tyme Bible preachers shouting "God said it, and I believe it!" perhaps have a point. Why try to look behind the mirror? It's like a computer trying to count to infinity - the faster it goes, the more it finds, and it will never reach the end. 

I am amazed at the these verses in DC 121, looking forward to a time (soon to come) when we shall know much, much more than we can know now:

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.
26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;
27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;
28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.
29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
30 And also, if there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars—
31 All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—

32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

And then the Lord says this:

33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

Is it possible to know too much? I hope not.

The "old tyme" preachers speak of going to heaven, where, supposedly life is wonderful all the time and we are perfectly happy forever. And we Latter-day Saints scoff and ask "What's the point of that? Float around on a cloud with a halo and a harp? Why?" And we then propose that the purpose of it all is to lead the life God lives and populate our own universes like our Father has done, raising as many who qualify to our level. In support of this we put forth Moses 1:39, where God states:

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

But again, let's jump further down the rabbit hole and ask: WHY?

Forget the Ultimate Cause, what is the Ultimate Purpose? To just keep on doing it, as one eternal round? Some wags who call themselves atheists posit that it would get boring after awhile. It's not just us Christians who have this going on: In Norse mythology, the men who die in combat (actually, only half of them) go to Valhalla where they await the final battle of Odin against the giants, which occurs during Ragnarök, where almost all will die, even the gods. And then, the earth is baptized in water, and things start over again -- with an Adam and Eve, but not by those names. Instead, they are Líf and Lífþrasir, the only two survivors of Ragnarök. One eternal round. Modern mythology actually seems to track this kind of thing, almost like a race memory, with The Matrix.

Is that all there is? One eternal round, never ending? Do we want there to be more? Would it really get boring after awhile? God doesn't seem to think so, or else he wouldn't be actively abetting the process.

So what is beyond Moses 1:39? In my pondering I have supposed that there must be something beyond this. And it ought to be anything but boring.

I just hope we're not heading towards an interdimensional Ragnarök. 

 

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Another response to Lerner's claims.
https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/has-jwst-disproven-big-bang/

One of his quotes applies very much to the critics of the Church ... and advocates, it's a double edged sword. I am very comfortable with this position.

Quote

But there’s a cardinal sin you absolutely must not commit: you cannot ignore the full suite of evidence at hand, particularly the bits that contradict your own position, while focusing on just a few cherry-picked pieces of evidence that support it. This is the hallmark of unscrupulous contrarians, crackpots, and heretics everywhere, as well as those who support long-discredited theories.

 

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

So what is beyond Moses 1:39? In my pondering I have supposed that there must be something beyond this. And it ought to be anything but boring

There is no one but you to create your metaverse.

I think you will figure it out by then!

;)

 

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1 hour ago, Nofear said:

Another response to Lerner's claims.
https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/has-jwst-disproven-big-bang/

One of his quotes applies very much to the critics of the Church ... and advocates, it's a double edged sword. I am very comfortable with this position.

 

Yep.

All we have is man made conjecture, and it's never going to change. It cannot!

We make it up on the fly.

The farther out we think we are seeing, all we see is ourselves looking back through glass darkly.

;)

 

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2 hours ago, Nofear said:

Another response to Lerner's claims.
https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/has-jwst-disproven-big-bang/

One of his quotes applies very much to the critics of the Church ... and advocates, it's a double edged sword. I am very comfortable with this position.

 

Edit:

Never mind.  Posted without engaging brain- I forgot to hit the clutch!  ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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