The Nehor Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, smac97 said: Nope. Not a whit. I start threads about all sorts of things. Here are the last 75 topics I have started (I have asterisked the ones where the topic is, broadly, "LGBT"): Another Instance of Compelled Speech (Targeting Religious People) (Sorta) Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith? "Suspicious" Fire at Orem Temple Site Update on Investigation of BYU's Speech and Language Clinic Pres. Oaks: "Religious Rights Cannot Be Absolute" It's Official: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v. Wade Update on the "Glass of Wine is Good for You" Thing... Update on Massacre of Polygamists in Mexico Another SCOTUS decision on religious liberty. Des News Article Re: "Under the Banner of Heaven" Mini Series White Nationalists (Some from Utah) Planned to Attack LGBTQ Rally in Idaho Dallas Jenkins Walking a Tightrope Update on Story Re: Missing Kids (Daybell) ***BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation The 2021 Annual Report: How the Church of Jesus Christ Cared for God’s Children "Patriarchy" - On its definition, meaning, on its "smashing," etc. On Elder Renlund's "Arrogant and Unproductive" Comment ("Demanding revelation from God is both...") (2nd) Update on Arizona Abuse Case Church Faces Possible Tax Issue in Australia (Simon Southerton is involved...) Two Trib Articles Re: John Dehlin Latter-day Saints call first Black woman to serve in a general presidency The Trailer for "Banner of Heaven" has dropped Trib Article re: Heavenly Mother Is the "Mormon" label fading? Story Re: Assignment from BYU Professor Dehlin v. Kwaku - An Update Article Re: SCOTUS Review of Gay Rights Case (Wedding Websites) Thoughts on the Church's Response to Ukraine Conflict QAnon Continues to Disturb (Trib Article) Saints Unscripted - Series of Vids Re: Blacks and the Priesthood Federal lawsuit against religious schools, including byu - Update Two Announcements Re: April 2022 General Conference Article: "What happens when Mormon women are called to ordained ministry?" The Church's Marketing Strategy - Reverting from the Shift? Controversy Over Utah Pastor's Tweet Re: Woman Posting Pics of Themselves in Revealing Clothing ***BYU Bans Protests on Y Mountain New Church Pamphlet on Islam RICO Act, Proposed Class Action against the Church - it is filed (Part 2) - Gaddy Lawsuit "Conversion Therapy" in Canada: Apparently a One Way Street Graphic Novel re: Joseph Smith Information About Ken Bowers Interesting article re: polygamists' approach to COVID, medical issues "Government Dole" v. Church's Welfare System Feet of Clay NASA Asking Religious Leaders About Aliens - What Would Latter-day Saint Leaders Say? Idaho County Sheriff Pulls Gun on Church Youth Group Former Doctor in Las Vegas Arrested for Terroristic Threats against Church Is the Provo Temple . . . Ugly? Police Chief for USU Police Warns Football Team re: Sex w "Mormon Women" Clean up your act online, church tells Latter-day Saints Saints Unscripted - Bible Genres and Historicity SCOTUS - Oral Argument on Abortion Rights Case DezNat in the News Again Federal lawsuit against religious schools, including byu Christian Pastor on Trial in Finland Input on Eating Meat "Sparingly" ***Two Articles re Improvements in Utah re: LGBT Issues Church Members in California Seeking "Religious Exemption" Forms for Vaccine, Church Saying "Nope." New Schisms: Denver Snuffer and Phil Davis Great Article Re: "Reconversion" Narratives ***Article re "Mixed Orientation Marriage" ***Opinion Piece by Ty Mansfield: Managing "Tension" between Doctrines and Impact Sexism in Utah: How Latter-day Saints Fare Jewish Leaders in AZ Tour Mesa Temple During Open House Minerva Teichert's Grandson's Lawsuit Against the Church Fire in Joseph Smith Memorial Building (Not Arson) Catholic "Ordinariates" - Any corollary in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? ***Opinion Article Re: Religious Activity and Suicidal Ideation (LGBT) 1st Edition Book of Mormon Sold - Record-setting Amount Boy Scouts, Church Pay into Settlement Fund for Abuse Victims Church completes digitization for billions of family history records Will the Church Purchase the Kirtland Temple? James huntsman (jon's brother) sues church for 'fraud' Idaho Bishop Released, Charged with Abuse Denver Snuffer - Canonizing "QAnon" Conspiracy Theories? I count 6 out of 75. Or about 8%. Most of my threads are about legal topics pertaining to the Church (civil liberties, lawsuits against or other legal issues affecting the Church, etc.), current events and news items involving the church, doctrinal issues, media (news and social) treatment of the Church, critics and criticism of the Church, issues pertaining to Christianity generally. Meanwhile, let's take a looksee at your threads (gay-themed, including topics where you and your status as a gay man, are asterisked) : ***We Can Find Common Ground on Gay Rights and Religious Liberty ***A Prophet of God ***In Latter Times Some Shall Forbid Marriage You Guys Need a Hug ***Is there a place in the Plan of Happiness for gays? Do you think there has been a revelation from God since Joseph Smith's time? Is the Bible the Words of God? ***Why would any straight person want to be a member of the COJCOLDS? ***Main resons for faith crisis So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster. ***The Last Ever Ssm Thread. Who's In? Why Is Organized Religion Failing ***Eternal Increase And Eternal Progression Use Of The Urim And Thummim In Translating The Book Of Mormon ***Plantiff Files Prop 8 Brief For Supreme Court ***The Church Has Done More For Gay Marriage Than Any Other Organization ***Marriott Pushes For Doma Repeal Does God Cause Natural Disasters? ***Has Anyone On This Board Softened Their Views Of Gay Marriage? ***Catholics Backing Away From Politically Fighting Gay Marriage. ***Prop 8 The Play To Broadcast On Youtube David Archuleta Announces He Is Serving A Mission ***George Cloney To Star In Dustin Lance Black'S Prop 8 Play Morality And The Presidency ***Prop 8, The Play I count 16 out of 25, or 64%. You have started eight times as many "LGBT" threads as I have. Personally, I would be fine if there were less "LGBT" topics pertaining to the Church (and even in general). I recently posted a link to this video of a British guy commenting on the oversaturation of "gay" stuff. A transcription: "A lot of gay people don't feel at all represented by "Pride." They don't have anything to do with it. They just want to get on with their lives." "{A} lot of straight people look at this and think 'Just, you know, just tone it down a bit. We're very happy for you, but you don't have to go on about it, you don't have to have months of special flag-flying. Let's just get on with being equal.'" Alas, I don't expect any such respite, either in general or from you. My interest in the Church is eclectic. I am interested in discussing and learning about and debating its origins, history, doctrines, practices, governance, societal influence and impact, and so on. I think that is amply attested in my posting history. If anything, my particular emphasis tends toward legal issues affecting the Church. Developments in civil liberties. Legislation. Lawsuits. Members of the Church who break the law. That sort of thing. Meanwhile, you are far more of a one-trick-pony than I am when it comes to "LGBT" issues. The difference is that I don't really hector you about your preferred choice of discussion topics. Meanwhile, your prior response to me was devoid of substance or reasoning. A driveby potshot, that's all. Never. I never posted any such thing. And you continue to personalize the thread. No substance. No reasoning. Just personal attacks. Must be a day ending in "y." Yawn. I didn't do anything comparable to this. I do nothing of the sort. To the contrary, I often differentiate between the broader gay community and those subparts of it that are prone to excesses, unseemly behaviors, etc. Then feel free to disregard my posts. Meh. Again, there is no reasoning here. No substance. No evidence. No reasoned analysis or argument. Just emotional vitriol and threats. I was not describing all pride parades. I was instead commenting on the ones that include depraved, licentious behaviors, that are grooming children, etc. I have likewise not spoken against all drag shows. I have instead commented on the ones that involve inappropriate sexualization of children. And it is those portions of pride parades that I find problematic, and which I am criticizing. I have not. Again, no reasoning. No analysis. No evidence. Just vituperation. Emotional blackmail tends to work better when you have a personal relationship with the other guy. And threatened emotional blackmail as a distraction from the topic at hand is ineffective. I don't post "anti LGBT threads." That is a caricture of your own divising. Oh, the irony. Again, the irony. Then ignore them. We'll both be better off. No need to imagine. Much (most?) of your participation on this board consists of disparagements, insults, taunts, accusations, etc. Against the Church, its leaders, doctrines, members, etc. Get a grip, dude. I regularly post news items where Latter-day Saints have been arrested, convicted, etc. Daybell/Vallow. The guy in Arizona who horrifically abused his children. The guy from Utah (on his stake's high council) who was caught taking upskirt photos in a mall in Tennessee (?). Swindlers who have conned fellow Latter-day Saints out of millions of dollars. DezNat. The USU coach who was caught disparaging women. Here a few I found offhand: White Nationalists (Some from Utah) Planned to Attack LGBTQ Rally in Idaho Update on Story Re: Missing Kids (Daybell) (2nd) Update on Arizona Abuse Case Information About Ken Bowers Former Doctor in Las Vegas Arrested for Terroristic Threats against Church Police Chief for USU Police Warns Football Team re: Sex w "Mormon Women" DezNat in the News Again Idaho Bishop Released, Charged with Abuse Alaska Assistant Attorney General in "DezNat" Trouble Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 4 Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3 Another Religion-based "Affinity Fraud" Case in Utah Church Rebukes Latter-day Saints Participating in Riot in DC w/ "Title of Liberty" Banner Update on Human Trafficking Scam in AZ/UT Update on AZ Abuse Case Update on Adoption Scam (Human Trafficking? in Arizona/Utah All of these involve Latter-day Saints misbehaving, usually in some pretty serious ways. And yet nobody has ever accused me of using such topics to "expose" or disparage the entirety of the Latter-day Saint community. I have likewise said nothing to disparage the entirety of the "gay community." I have instead critiqued those parts and members of it which are doing things I find problematic. Then feel free to not read them. Not really buying into your attempt at guilt-tripping, CB. It's based on a caricature. Thanks, -Smac My “I am not anti-LGBT” t-shirt is making people ask a lot of questions that are already answered by my shirt.
smac97 Posted July 28, 2022 Author Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rain said: @smac97 Would you please delete the pictures from your post? While I can eaily skip past words it is harder to not see the pictures and then they stick in my mind. Done. I apologize. I included them advisedly, but perhaps that was a mistake. Having never attended a pride parade, I was shocked at the debaucheries going on, particularly where small children are nearby. The same goes with drag shows. There is a lot of rhetoric being tossed around about children being "sexualized" or "groomed" at these sorts of events. I had considered the possibility that these descriptions were overblown . . . until I saw the photos and watched the videos. I am broadly indifferent to pride parades and drag shows. But when they include patently grotesque stuff, aberrant and hyper-sexualized imagery and clothing and behaviors, and when all of these things are going on in full view of the general public, and when small children are increasingly being seen in attendance, and when children are being specifically invited to not only view these things, but also participate (many of the supposed "kid-friendly" drag shows are particularly alarming on this score), then I think that merits attention. Nevertheless, you raise a fair point. I have removed the photos. Those who want to learn more can click on the links I have provided and decide for themselves whether this stuff is objecitonable/problematic. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 28, 2022 by smac97 3
smac97 Posted July 28, 2022 Author Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: Yep. Here's a recent post from Carol Lynn Pearson on the Facebook group, Mormons Building Bridges. I hope Smac takes the time to read it. Carol Lynn Pearson: THE TIME I RECEIVED A LETTER OF APOLOGY FROM THE PRESIDENT/PROPHET OF MY CHURCH. A letter in my personal archives came to mind when I read of the current visit of the excellent Pope Francis to Canada on what he calls a “penitential pilgrimage” to atone for the historic role of Catholic missionaries in the forced assimilation and “cultural genocide” of generations of Indigenous children, hundreds of whom—perhaps thousands—lie in unmarked graves near residential schools. My story is not nearly so brutal, but still it serves as a good example in a community that continues to discuss the appropriateness of institutional apology for harm done. On August 17, 1983 I wrote a three page letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley, with whom I had had several positive communications. I told him of my attending a talk given by a popular speaker in the First Quorum of the Seventy. I wrote, “I have never heard a talk in which the voice of the Lord as I know it was so conspicuously absent.” This talk was given in an outdoor setting on a lovely summer evening at the Aspen Grove Family Camp, where I had been invited to be a participant. My four children were with me. “The voice that I heard was a voice of bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization . . . . The general thrust of the talk was how special we Mormons really are . . . . An unkind humor permeated the talk from beginning to end.” [He joked about Catholics whom the Lord obviously loves because we converted 50,000 of them last year, and about people in India who worship their cows.] “And now let’s talk about San Francisco and the homosexuals . . . . Brothers and sisters, I want you to know that homosexuality is nothing more than an addiction, like an addiction to drugs or to cigarettes, and you simply get over it . . . . But it’s tougher. And do you to know why it’s tougher? Because Satan himself is one of them, and he wants these men!’ ” At this I heard someone clomping down the steps from the benches above. Yes, my fifteen year-old daughter who had been sitting toward the top with other young people. She was sobbing, tears running down her cheeks. Her fists were clenched and she was shaking with anger as she sat down beside me. “Let’s leave,” I said to her. “No,” she said as she glared at the speaker. “I’m going to sit right here.” I kept my arms around my daughter—whose gay father would pass away the following year. More laughter, more jokes. The speaker smiled. My daughter cried. During the closing prayer she got up and ran and I followed her. We talked long into the night. I held her close and told her that this man was not representative of the general authorities that I know and love. My letter to President Hinckley concluded: “There is false economy in worrying about the billions of waiting spirits and forgetting about [the young people of the church who are] anxious to hear a voice that is consistent with the voice of the Lord. And when the voices in the Church are not—they do not hesitate to go elsewhere. “Thank you for listening. Thank you for your enormous efforts in dealing with difficult things. I send my best wishes and appreciation.” A couple of weeks later there was a letter in my mailbox from church headquarters. “Dear Sister Pearson: I read your letter of August 17th with dismay. I very much regret the experience which you and your daughter had . . . . I hope that you and your daughter will accept my apology in behalf of the Church and the speaker for any injuries done. Please be assured of my earnest desire for your happiness and that of your daughter within the framework of the Church and the gospel. Sincerely, Gordon B. Hinckley P.S. Thank you for the book which you sent me. Its contents are beautiful.” Apologies are powerful things that assist with healing—as we hope will happen for the Indigenous people of Canada through the public presence and words of Pope Francis—and as lifted my own heart through the personal communication to me from the good man who was the president of my church. Edited to add, from personal experience: I remember attending one of the first times that Mormons Building Bridges walked in the gay pride parade and took a photo and put it on my FB profile. And my aunt posted a reply and asked why I would do such a thing, and then a conversation ensued to the point that I finally had to take it down because it got so bad. Read it. And? I am assuming that you are comparing what I have written to the above characterizations, namely, that what I have written is "bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization." With respect, I don't agree. I said: Quote Quote Gay people make up maybe 2-3% of the population. They've acquired almost all of the rights in a country like Australia or Britain that you could wish to acquire. At some point, you've just got to get on with being like everybody else. But this sort of endless insistence that everybody else has to put up with a sort of weird overreach by a very distinct minority of the population, I think heralds, at some point, a backlash of its own. A lot of gay people don't feel at all represented by "Pride." They don't have anything to do with it. They just want to get on with their lives. And I think a lot of straight people look at this and think 'Just, you know, just tone it down a bit. We're very happy for you, but you don't have to go on about it, you don't have to have months of special flag-flying. Let's just get on with being equal.' I think a lot of gay and straight people agree with that, but weird figures, like the Mayor of London, want to push the LGBTQIA+ {messaging} until they really stretch everyone's tolerance. I agree with these sentiments. I don't want to see a "backlash." I want to see more and greater harmony in our society. A big part of that harmony is allowing for differences of opinion. Another big part is individual liberty and autonomy, which are imperiled by coercive and punitive measures, and also by - as the above guy put it - an "endless insistence that everybody else has to put up with a sort of weird overreach." I don't see "bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization" in the foregoing remarks. I also said: Quote The coverage of many "Pride" parades is not doing that movement any favors. The participants come across as hedonistic, grossly oversexualized, and pervy. And with increasing frequency, the debauchery parades, the "Drag Queen Story Hours," the supposed "Kid-Friendly" drag shows, etc., are coming across pretty clearly as "grooming" behaviors. As sexualizing children. Before you conclusorily declare this to be "bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization," first demonstrate that I am wrong. Do some "Pride" parades include "hedonistic, grossly oversexualized, and pervy" imagery / behaviors? Are children being invited to these events? To participate in these events? Are these events "false flag operations?" Or are they being accurately described (and photographed and recorded)? Are there really people taking their small children to these events? Are they publicly encouraging others to do likewise? Have I fabtricated evidence? Nope. Have I attributed these debaucheries and excesses to the entirety of the LGBT community? Nope. Not even close. To the contrary, I specifically said that I agree with this sentiment: Quote A lot of gay people don't feel at all represented by "Pride." They don't have anything to do with it. They just want to get on with their lives. And I think a lot of straight people look at this and think 'Just, you know, just tone it down a bit. We're very happy for you, but you don't have to go on about it, you don't have to have months of special flag-flying. Let's just get on with being equal.' I think a lot of gay and straight people agree with that, but weird figures, like the Mayor of London, want to push the LGBTQIA+ {messaging} until they really stretch everyone's tolerance. I am construing your post as an attempt to silence me by obliquely accusing me of speaking with "bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization." I reject the accusation. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 28, 2022 by smac97 2
The Nehor Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 40 minutes ago, smac97 said: Done. I apologize. I included them advisedly, but perhaps that was a mistake. Having never attended a pride parade, I was shocked at the debaucheries going on, particularly where small children are nearby. The same goes with drag shows. There is a lot of rhetoric being tossed around about children being "sexualized" or "groomed" at these sorts of events. I had considered the possibility that these descriptions were overblown . . . until I saw the photos and watched the videos. I am broadly indifferent to pride parades and drag shows. But when they include patently grotesque stuff, aberrant and hyper-sexualized imagery and clothing and behaviors, and when all of these things are going on in full view of the general public, and when small children are increasingly being seen in attendance, and when children are being specifically invited to not only view these things, but also participate (many of the supposed "kid-friendly" drag shows are particularly alarming on this score), then I think that merits attention. Nevertheless, you raise a fair point. I have removed the photos. Those who want to learn more can click on the links I have provided and decide for themselves whether this stuff is objecitonable/problematic. Thanks, -Smac So presumably you are also against beaches and pool parties? 1
Vanguard Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 15 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So presumably you are also against beaches and pool parties? That's a pretty shabby comparison. Are these supposed beach & pool parties being marketed as 'family friendly' events? And of course similar behavior at such parties should be frowned upon even more so when sanctioned by municipalities on our public streets. 2
The Nehor Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, Vanguard said: That's a pretty shabby comparison. Are these supposed beach & pool parties being marketed as 'family friendly' events? And of course similar behavior at such parties should be frowned upon even more so when sanctioned by municipalities on our public streets. I like the costumes. The idea that it sexualizes actual children is a fantasy. The kids see people in weird and fun costumes. The adults just use the children as a scapegoat for their own unease and to push their “grooming” (which is not grooming) schtick. -1
Amulek Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 41 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So presumably you are also against beaches and pool parties? Who really wants to try and shoot pool at the beach? Seems rather impractical to me...
The Nehor Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 Just now, Amulek said: Who really wants to try and shoot pool at the beach? Seems rather impractical to me... Maybe it is strip pool at a nude beach? That would make sense.
Popular Post Calm Posted July 28, 2022 Popular Post Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, The Nehor said: I like the costumes. The idea that it sexualizes actual children is a fantasy. The kids see people in weird and fun costumes. The adults just use the children as a scapegoat for their own unease and to push their “grooming” (which is not grooming) schtick. I don’t know, Nehor. I get that the kids don’t understand the context at that point in their lives, but they will later. And I have some disturbing images from about 3 or 4 years old that I later attached to horror films, which have created a weird dynamic for me. It may not sexualize the children at that age, but what about later? What about normalizing [added for clarity of my intent: potentially dangerous] kink as well? I also have some very pleasant images from my young childhood, so not just bad feelings images hang around. Images that impressed one way or the other stayed with me. Plus parents aren’t just taking too young of kids to understand to these parades, but older kids. I saw a very graphic, very degrading for women porn advertisement by accident when I was grade 7…so 10 or 11 as I was young for my grade (xerox copy blowing in the wind ended up below my outdoor locker at school) and it still pops into my head. It also, I believe, made me more curious about porn in general earlier than I would have been otherwise, I am guessing. Whether that led me to browse through the Playboy collection of a house I was babysitting or not in my late teens, I don’t know, but my older reaction to porn was “how boring”, so it makes me think I would have been less curious if my first exposure had been when I was older. Also images from late teens and on did not stay so wedged into my brain and it would have been nice to not have that image as my companion til I die. Edited July 29, 2022 by Calm 6
Popular Post Vanguard Posted July 28, 2022 Popular Post Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I like the costumes. The idea that it sexualizes actual children is a fantasy. The kids see people in weird and fun costumes. The adults just use the children as a scapegoat for their own unease and to push their “grooming” (which is not grooming) schtick. What I don't understand is why can't there be at least some agreement on some of the more provocative displays? Why is smac accused of sparking more faux-outrage when we can see for ourselves much of what transpires at these events? No one has suggested there aren't more respectable displays of LGBT pride but isn't there room for criticizing those elements that continue to push the envelope in front of our children? And yes, I do believe it is a form of sexualization of our children. It's precisely why it was asked the posted pictures be taken down. How can that be if as you say "I like the costumes. The kids see people in weird and fun costumes."? So the pictures are innocuous and to be celebrated or sexually vulgar and trashy? What is the limit because it has already passed mine? And for the record, I would not have taken my kiddos to this type of event just like I would not have taken them to Mardi Gras or the Brazilian Carnival - trust me, I saw how Sao Paulo partied! Good grief! Edited July 28, 2022 by Vanguard 7
The Nehor Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, Vanguard said: What I don't understand is why can't there be at least some agreement on some of the more provocative displays? Why is smac accused of sparking more faux-outrage when we can see for ourselves much of what transpires at these events? No one has suggested there aren't more respectable displays of LGBT pride but isn't there room for criticizing those elements that continue to push the envelope in front of our children? And yes, I do believe it is a form of sexualization of our children. It's precisely why it was asked the posted pictures be taken down. How can that be if as you say "I like the costumes. The kids see people in weird and fun costumes."? So the pictures are innocuous and to be celebrated or sexually vulgar and trashy? What is the limit because it has already passed mine? And for the record, I would not have taken my kiddos to this type of event just like I would not have taken them to Mardi Gras or the Brazilian Carnival - trust me, I saw how Sao Paulo partied! Good grief! Don’t take your kids then. And why are all these easily upset amateur social media people voluntarily going to Pride to cover it? In the interests of full disclosure I have worn pup play gear similar to the type many of these people find abhorrent back when I was younger and better looking so I might be biased.
Vanguard Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Don’t take your kids then. And why are all these easily upset amateur social media people voluntarily going to Pride to cover it? In the interests of full disclosure I have worn pup play gear similar to the type many of these people find abhorrent back when I was younger and better looking so I might be biased. Fair enough. Yours seems like an argument to let everyone do and perform (in this case) how they wish as long as they do not physically force themselves on others, children in the audience notwithstanding. Do you have any other limiting boundaries? I remember looking at the newspaper stands in Sao Paulo back in '85 the day after the biggest night of Carnival. It seems the Brazilians had no problem with displaying pictures of all kinds of publicly performed sexual activities. I guess the issue is reduced to "Hey, if you don't like it, don't go/look!". Do you advocate that standard? 1
The Nehor Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 10 minutes ago, Vanguard said: Fair enough. Yours seems like an argument to let everyone do and perform (in this case) how they wish as long as they do not physically force themselves on others, children in the audience notwithstanding. Do you have any other limiting boundaries? I remember looking at the newspaper stands in Sao Paulo back in '85 the day after the biggest night of Carnival. It seems the Brazilians had no problem with displaying pictures of all kinds of publicly performed sexual activities. I guess the issue is reduced to "Hey, if you don't like it, don't go/look!". Do you advocate that standard? For special events, yes. If it were to happen in the streets every day I would think it more unjust. I wonder about people who show up at Pride and then are SHOCKED at what goes on. It is like being shocked by women pulling their shirt up at Mardi Gras. The person is ignorant, an idiot, or is deliberately trying to find something shocking for whatever reason. Or some combination of those three. 1
Chum Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 22 minutes ago, Calm said: It may not specialize the children at that age, but what about late? What about normalizing kink as well? What does normalizing kink mean? I get the associations that anti-trans people are trying to draw but if those associations reflected reality, we'd have lots of data about trans people spending their childhoods in trans-heavy environments. My experience of the trans people I grew up with and those I later had as friends is that they universally grew up in heterosexual, normy-centric environments. So if we've decided that an environment of sexual orientation is what leads to trans outcomes, we ought to get normy heterosexuals out of kids lives. 3
Popular Post Chum Posted July 28, 2022 Popular Post Posted July 28, 2022 To address folks who really like to introduce grooming into conversations, I offer that we have lots of stats about who's doing actual grooming and it's overwhelmingly men with a history of exclusively heterosexual relationships. It's kind of why effective child protection training tends to use normy looking guys as their predator examples. One thing women got a long time ago (while men often don't) is that sexual abuse isn't about sex but about leveraging power against weaker people. Sex is a delivery system for violence and battering someone doesn't change a perp's sexual orientation. The males who abused me were heterosexual before, heterosexual after and lived long heterosexual lives - all of which is overwhelmingly the norm for child abusers. Based on reality, the people most likely to keep my kids safe would be women and LGTBQ people. 5
Tacenda Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 2 hours ago, smac97 said: Read it. And? I am assuming that you are comparing what I have written to the above characterizations, namely, that what I have written is "bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization." With respect, I don't agree. I said: I don't see "bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization" in the foregoing remarks. I also said: Before you conclusorily declare this to be "bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization," first demonstrate that I am wrong. Do some "Pride" parades include "hedonistic, grossly oversexualized, and pervy" imagery / behaviors? Are children being invited to these events? To participate in these events? Are these events "false flag operations?" Or are they being accurately described (and photographed and recorded)? Are there really people taking their small children to these events? Are they publicly encouraging others to do likewise? Have I fabtricated evidence? Nope. Have I attributed these debaucheries and excesses to the entirety of the LGBT community? Nope. Not even close. To the contrary, I specifically said that I agree with this sentiment: I am construing your post as an attempt to silence me by obliquely accusing me of speaking with "bigotry, of self-righteousness, of condescension and patronization." I reject the accusation. Thanks, -Smac No, in answer to your assumptions, I just happen to land on that FB post with Carol Lynn Pearson after googling Mormons Building Bridges because they walk in Utah's pride parade. The FB group by their name came up and Carol Lynn Pearson's FB post was at the top. I liked what she said and just wanted to share it. I wanted you to see the need for celebrating the person who is gay. How they've gone through enough already and sometimes when you post the bad about the parades or such, then people who are not too bright or haven't known a gay person themselves will lump them all together. But do know you have shared links to LDS behaving badly too, such as in sexual abuse cases of children, so that's good. I'm sorry if I made it sound like you hate all gays. I know that you don't and you're looking out for the children.
The Nehor Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Calm said: I don’t know, Nehor. I get that the kids don’t understand the context at that point in their lives, but they will later. And I have some disturbing images from about 3 or 4 years old that I later attached to horror films, which have created a weird dynamic for me. It may not specialize the children at that age, but what about late? What about normalizing kink as well? I also have some very pleasant images from my young childhood, so not just bad feelings images hang around. Plus parents aren’t just taking too young of kids to understand to these parades, but older kids. I saw a very graphic, very degrading for women porn advertisement by accident when I was 7 (xerox copy blowing in the wind ended up below my outdoor locker at school) and it still pops into my head. It also, I believe, made me more curious about porn in general earlier than I would have been otherwise, Inam guessing. Whether that led me to browse through the Playboy collection of a house I was babysitting or not in my late teens, I don’t know, but my older reaction to porn was “how boring”, so it makes me think I would have been less curious if my first exposure had been when I was older. Also images from late teens and on did not stay so wedged into my brain and it would have been nice to not have that image as my companion til I die. What is the danger of normalizing kink? Most of it is harmless.
Tacenda Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 45 minutes ago, Chum said: What does normalizing kink mean? I get the associations that anti-trans people are trying to draw but if those associations reflected reality, we'd have lots of data about trans people spending their childhoods in trans-heavy environments. My experience of the trans people I grew up with and those I later had as friends is that they universally grew up in heterosexual, normy-centric environments. So if we've decided that an environment of sexual orientation is what leads to trans outcomes, we ought to get normy heterosexuals out of kids lives. I agree, why do we have such a porn problem in the LDS church and other faiths, I'm thinking because we've made such a big fuss over it and even introduce the idea of it sometimes to unsuspecting youth/children during bishop interviews
smac97 Posted July 28, 2022 Author Posted July 28, 2022 25 minutes ago, Tacenda said: No, in answer to your assumptions, I just happen to land on that FB post with Carol Lynn Pearson after googling Mormons Building Bridges because they walk in Utah's pride parade. The FB group by their name came up and Carol Lynn Pearson's FB post was at the top. I liked what she said and just wanted to share it. I wanted you to see the need for celebrating the person who is gay. How they've gone through enough already and sometimes when you post the bad about the parades or such, then people who are not too bright or haven't known a gay person themselves will lump them all together. But do know you have shared links to LDS behaving badly too, such as in sexual abuse cases of children, so that's good. I'm sorry if I made it sound like you hate all gays. I know that you don't and you're looking out for the children. Thanks.
Vanguard Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: What is the danger of normalizing kink? Most of it is harmless. Again, there does not seem to be any boundary limits beyond the absence of coercion in your eyes. I wonder if you really would hold to that were other individuals willing to carry their behavior in the public eye to further extremes.
Chum Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I agree, why do we have such a porn problem in the LDS church and other faiths, I'm thinking because we've made such a big fuss over it and even introduce the idea of it sometimes to unsuspecting youth/children during bishop interviews I find it weird that within the church, it is rarely mentioned that porn conditions men to objectify women. It's a fairly prominent and widely accepted issue (tho I can't say how universal it is). You'd think Churchy people would seize on that biscuit to demonize porn but I can't recall ever hearing it mentioned. 1
california boy Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 3 hours ago, smac97 said: Nope. Not a whit. I start threads about all sorts of things. Here are the last 75 topics I have started (I have asterisked the ones where the topic is, broadly, "LGBT"): Another Instance of Compelled Speech (Targeting Religious People) (Sorta) Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith? "Suspicious" Fire at Orem Temple Site Update on Investigation of BYU's Speech and Language Clinic Pres. Oaks: "Religious Rights Cannot Be Absolute" It's Official: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v. Wade Update on the "Glass of Wine is Good for You" Thing... Update on Massacre of Polygamists in Mexico Another SCOTUS decision on religious liberty. Des News Article Re: "Under the Banner of Heaven" Mini Series White Nationalists (Some from Utah) Planned to Attack LGBTQ Rally in Idaho Dallas Jenkins Walking a Tightrope Update on Story Re: Missing Kids (Daybell) ***BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation The 2021 Annual Report: How the Church of Jesus Christ Cared for God’s Children "Patriarchy" - On its definition, meaning, on its "smashing," etc. On Elder Renlund's "Arrogant and Unproductive" Comment ("Demanding revelation from God is both...") (2nd) Update on Arizona Abuse Case Church Faces Possible Tax Issue in Australia (Simon Southerton is involved...) Two Trib Articles Re: John Dehlin Latter-day Saints call first Black woman to serve in a general presidency The Trailer for "Banner of Heaven" has dropped Trib Article re: Heavenly Mother Is the "Mormon" label fading? Story Re: Assignment from BYU Professor Dehlin v. Kwaku - An Update Article Re: SCOTUS Review of Gay Rights Case (Wedding Websites) Thoughts on the Church's Response to Ukraine Conflict QAnon Continues to Disturb (Trib Article) Saints Unscripted - Series of Vids Re: Blacks and the Priesthood Federal lawsuit against religious schools, including byu - Update Two Announcements Re: April 2022 General Conference Article: "What happens when Mormon women are called to ordained ministry?" The Church's Marketing Strategy - Reverting from the Shift? Controversy Over Utah Pastor's Tweet Re: Woman Posting Pics of Themselves in Revealing Clothing ***BYU Bans Protests on Y Mountain New Church Pamphlet on Islam RICO Act, Proposed Class Action against the Church - it is filed (Part 2) - Gaddy Lawsuit "Conversion Therapy" in Canada: Apparently a One Way Street Graphic Novel re: Joseph Smith Information About Ken Bowers Interesting article re: polygamists' approach to COVID, medical issues "Government Dole" v. Church's Welfare System Feet of Clay NASA Asking Religious Leaders About Aliens - What Would Latter-day Saint Leaders Say? Idaho County Sheriff Pulls Gun on Church Youth Group Former Doctor in Las Vegas Arrested for Terroristic Threats against Church Is the Provo Temple . . . Ugly? Police Chief for USU Police Warns Football Team re: Sex w "Mormon Women" Clean up your act online, church tells Latter-day Saints Saints Unscripted - Bible Genres and Historicity SCOTUS - Oral Argument on Abortion Rights Case DezNat in the News Again Federal lawsuit against religious schools, including byu Christian Pastor on Trial in Finland Input on Eating Meat "Sparingly" ***Two Articles re Improvements in Utah re: LGBT Issues Church Members in California Seeking "Religious Exemption" Forms for Vaccine, Church Saying "Nope." New Schisms: Denver Snuffer and Phil Davis Great Article Re: "Reconversion" Narratives ***Article re "Mixed Orientation Marriage" ***Opinion Piece by Ty Mansfield: Managing "Tension" between Doctrines and Impact Sexism in Utah: How Latter-day Saints Fare Jewish Leaders in AZ Tour Mesa Temple During Open House Minerva Teichert's Grandson's Lawsuit Against the Church Fire in Joseph Smith Memorial Building (Not Arson) Catholic "Ordinariates" - Any corollary in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? ***Opinion Article Re: Religious Activity and Suicidal Ideation (LGBT) 1st Edition Book of Mormon Sold - Record-setting Amount Boy Scouts, Church Pay into Settlement Fund for Abuse Victims Church completes digitization for billions of family history records Will the Church Purchase the Kirtland Temple? James huntsman (jon's brother) sues church for 'fraud' Idaho Bishop Released, Charged with Abuse Denver Snuffer - Canonizing "QAnon" Conspiracy Theories? I count 6 out of 75. Or about 8%. Most of my threads are about legal topics pertaining to the Church (civil liberties, lawsuits against or other legal issues affecting the Church, etc.), current events and news items involving the church, doctrinal issues, media (news and social) treatment of the Church, critics and criticism of the Church, issues pertaining to Christianity generally. Meanwhile, let's take a looksee at your threads (gay-themed, including topics where you and your status as a gay man, are asterisked) : ***We Can Find Common Ground on Gay Rights and Religious Liberty ***A Prophet of God ***In Latter Times Some Shall Forbid Marriage You Guys Need a Hug ***Is there a place in the Plan of Happiness for gays? Do you think there has been a revelation from God since Joseph Smith's time? Is the Bible the Words of God? ***Why would any straight person want to be a member of the COJCOLDS? ***Main resons for faith crisis So What Is The Real Plan Of God. Or Is The Plan Of Salvation A Complete Disaster. ***The Last Ever Ssm Thread. Who's In? Why Is Organized Religion Failing ***Eternal Increase And Eternal Progression Use Of The Urim And Thummim In Translating The Book Of Mormon ***Plantiff Files Prop 8 Brief For Supreme Court ***The Church Has Done More For Gay Marriage Than Any Other Organization ***Marriott Pushes For Doma Repeal Does God Cause Natural Disasters? ***Has Anyone On This Board Softened Their Views Of Gay Marriage? ***Catholics Backing Away From Politically Fighting Gay Marriage. ***Prop 8 The Play To Broadcast On Youtube David Archuleta Announces He Is Serving A Mission ***George Cloney To Star In Dustin Lance Black'S Prop 8 Play Morality And The Presidency ***Prop 8, The Play I count 16 out of 25, or 64%. You have started eight times as many "LGBT" threads as I have. Personally, I would be fine if there were less "LGBT" topics pertaining to the Church (and even in general). I recently posted a link to this video of a British guy commenting on the oversaturation of "gay" stuff. A transcription: "A lot of gay people don't feel at all represented by "Pride." They don't have anything to do with it. They just want to get on with their lives." "{A} lot of straight people look at this and think 'Just, you know, just tone it down a bit. We're very happy for you, but you don't have to go on about it, you don't have to have months of special flag-flying. Let's just get on with being equal.'" Alas, I don't expect any such respite, either in general or from you. My interest in the Church is eclectic. I am interested in discussing and learning about and debating its origins, history, doctrines, practices, governance, societal influence and impact, and so on. I think that is amply attested in my posting history. If anything, my particular emphasis tends toward legal issues affecting the Church. Developments in civil liberties. Legislation. Lawsuits. Members of the Church who break the law. That sort of thing. Meanwhile, you are far more of a one-trick-pony than I am when it comes to "LGBT" issues. The difference is that I don't really hector you about your preferred choice of discussion topics. Meanwhile, your prior response to me was devoid of substance or reasoning. A driveby potshot, that's all. Never. I never posted any such thing. And you continue to personalize the thread. No substance. No reasoning. Just personal attacks. Must be a day ending in "y." Yawn. I didn't do anything comparable to this. I do nothing of the sort. To the contrary, I often differentiate between the broader gay community and those subparts of it that are prone to excesses, unseemly behaviors, etc. Then feel free to disregard my posts. Meh. Again, there is no reasoning here. No substance. No evidence. No reasoned analysis or argument. Just emotional vitriol and threats. I was not describing all pride parades. I was instead commenting on the ones that include depraved, licentious behaviors, that are grooming children, etc. I have likewise not spoken against all drag shows. I have instead commented on the ones that involve inappropriate sexualization of children. And it is those portions of pride parades that I find problematic, and which I am criticizing. I have not. Again, no reasoning. No analysis. No evidence. Just vituperation. Emotional blackmail tends to work better when you have a personal relationship with the other guy. And threatened emotional blackmail as a distraction from the topic at hand is ineffective. I don't post "anti LGBT threads." That is a caricture of your own divising. Oh, the irony. Again, the irony. Then ignore them. We'll both be better off. No need to imagine. Much (most?) of your participation on this board consists of disparagements, insults, taunts, accusations, etc. Against the Church, its leaders, doctrines, members, etc. Get a grip, dude. I regularly post news items where Latter-day Saints have been arrested, convicted, etc. Daybell/Vallow. The guy in Arizona who horrifically abused his children. The guy from Utah (on his stake's high council) who was caught taking upskirt photos in a mall in Tennessee (?). Swindlers who have conned fellow Latter-day Saints out of millions of dollars. DezNat. The USU coach who was caught disparaging women. Here a few I found offhand: White Nationalists (Some from Utah) Planned to Attack LGBTQ Rally in Idaho Update on Story Re: Missing Kids (Daybell) (2nd) Update on Arizona Abuse Case Information About Ken Bowers Former Doctor in Las Vegas Arrested for Terroristic Threats against Church Police Chief for USU Police Warns Football Team re: Sex w "Mormon Women" DezNat in the News Again Idaho Bishop Released, Charged with Abuse Alaska Assistant Attorney General in "DezNat" Trouble Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 4 Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3 Another Religion-based "Affinity Fraud" Case in Utah Church Rebukes Latter-day Saints Participating in Riot in DC w/ "Title of Liberty" Banner Update on Human Trafficking Scam in AZ/UT Update on AZ Abuse Case Update on Adoption Scam (Human Trafficking? in Arizona/Utah All of these involve Latter-day Saints misbehaving, usually in some pretty serious ways. And yet nobody has ever accused me of using such topics to "expose" or disparage the entirety of the Latter-day Saint community. I have likewise said nothing to disparage the entirety of the "gay community." I have instead critiqued those parts and members of it which are doing things I find problematic. Then feel free to not read them. Not really buying into your attempt at guilt-tripping, CB. It's based on a caricature. Thanks, -Smac Ironically a post about how you constantly distort the LGBT community, you list all the threads I have started implying that I constantly start gay related threads but somehow in order to make that false accusation you conviently did not include the fact that I have only started one thread about gay issues in the LAST DECADE. carry on. I am sure these threads make you feel better about yourself
Vanguard Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, california boy said: Ironically a post about how you constantly distort the LGBT community, you list all the threads I have started implying that I constantly start gay related threads but somehow in order to make that false accusation you conviently did not include the fact that I have only started one thread about gay issues in the LAST DECADE. carry on. I am sure these threads make you feel better about yourself CB- With all due respect, I'm astounded you make such a claim. A simple perusal of those very topics he listed finds easily a half dozen or so within the past decade. Did you even bother to verify this claim you make in your post?
The Nehor Posted July 28, 2022 Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Vanguard said: Again, there does not seem to be any boundary limits beyond the absence of coercion in your eyes. I wonder if you really would hold to that were other individuals willing to carry their behavior in the public eye to further extremes. I literally gave a limit earlier. Most of the kink on display at Pride is the tame version in any case. Edited July 28, 2022 by The Nehor
Calm Posted July 29, 2022 Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chum said: What does normalizing kink mean? I get the associations that anti-trans people are trying to draw but if those associations reflected reality, we'd have lots of data about trans people spending their childhoods in trans-heavy environments. My experience of the trans people I grew up with and those I later had as friends is that they universally grew up in heterosexual, normy-centric environments. So if we've decided that an environment of sexual orientation is what leads to trans outcomes, we ought to get normy heterosexuals out of kids lives. I am thinking of S&M myself, not trans; bondage stuff. Choking games…that should definitely not be normalized. Edited July 29, 2022 by Calm
Recommended Posts