smac97 Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 Ken Bowers is apparently a member of the Church and a conspiracy theorist who goes around talking about controversial topics like satanic ritual abuse. He authored a book called Hiding in Plain Sight - Unmasking the Secret Combinations of the Last Days, described on Amazon as follows: The world is full of evil men conspiring for total control. Composed of religious, financial, and political committees, this secret combination coordinates with other groups to accomplish its ultimate plan a one-world government called the New World Order and a one-world religion led by the Anti-Christ. But if this is true, why do so few people know about it? Why isn't it broadcast by the media for all the world to see? One reason is that the media obscures the actions of this great conspiracy. But the greatest reason is that the conspiracy is taking place right before our eyes, staring at us so hard in the face that we can t see it. With new evidence from various experts on the subject, this revised edition of Hiding in Plain Sight examines the combinations that seek to destroy us and exposes the reasoning they use to deceive us. This is a must-read for any Latter-day Saint who wants to outsmart the enemy and win the war against Satan. I looked online a bit and found a YouTube video (uploaded in July 2021) of a presentation by Mr. Bowers (starting at about the 22:18 mark). He then describes a vast conspiracy first described to him by the John Birch Society, which he says he has since confirmed for himself (starting at 23:34):: In my 40 years [of study] I have come to the conclusion that there are three major branches or organizations in this secret combination. The first branch is a political branch, a financial branch, which includes the Federal Reserve. The second one is a political branch which includes the Council on Foreign Relations. And the third one I found out is a religious branch. And the religious branch of this great secret combination is what we are going to study tonight. Satanic ritual abuse is part of it... He goes on to describe something called "Luciferianism," which he says "requires human sacrifice," and that "they do it" and that "usually it's children" who are sacrificed. He goes on to condemn this in unequivocal terms. However, he then proceeds to say that this is happening in the Church: So it [satanic ritual abuse] happens. I have talked with therapists, and I have talked with victims. It is here and it is more prevalent than I think we would like to know about. It's very uncomfortable for us. One of the great questions that we have to ask is 'Does it happen in the LDS Church?', and the answer to that is 'Yes, unequivocally yes.' I wish it didn't, but there are people who are nominally members of the Church who have not been discovered who practice this evil monstrosity. And the next question we should ask is 'Does anybody in leadership in the LDS Church practice it?', and the answer to that is 'Yes.' ... And here's the $64,000 question: 'Do General Authorities practice SRA [satanic ritual abuse]?' I don't know, but I'll give you an opinion. General Authorities in the LDS Church are human, and they are susceptible to fall, they are susceptible to fall prey to false doctrines of any kind. They are susceptible to be able to turn against the LDS Church and become devilish in their minds and in their hearts themselves. As evidence of that we know that Christ had His Judas, Joseph Smith had John C. Bennett, William and Wilson Law, the Foster brothers, the Higbee brothers, and others who turned against him. ... So is it possible that there are members of the General Authorities who practice it [satanic ritual abuse]? It is possible. I don't think so. I don't know of any, but it is possible. But I tell you this, if there are some, and if there is anybody in this audience who came to participate thinking that this might be something that was pro-SRA or something like that. If there is anybody in the audience like this I would tell you to repent now. God has a special place in hell for people who abuse His children. You will weep and wail and gnash your teeth that you ever abused children in such a horrible way. Oi. Mr. Bower's appears to be relying mostly on a 1990 memorandum by Elder Glenn L. Pace, then a member of the Presiding Bishopric, that was leaked to the public (a purported copy of it is here). You may recall that there was a fairly widespread "moral panic" prior to and after 1990 about supposed satanic abuse. It appears that Elder Pace, acting in good faith, accumulated stories from people caught up in this panic and passed them on to the Church. As it turns out, there was essentially no substance to the issue. From the above Wikipedia entry. The Pace memorandum In July 1990, Pace, who at the time was a member of the church's presiding bishopric, fulfilled a request by the church's Strengthening Church Members Committee by writing a memorandum about his investigations into alleged incidents of SRA among Latter-day Saints in Utah, Idaho, California, Mexico, and elsewhere.[2] The memorandum was leaked to the press in October 1991.[3][4][5] In his memo, Pace stated that he had met with sixty victims who had recovered memories of ritualistic abuse during their childhood. Pace reported that children were being "instructed in satanic doctrine" and that as eight-year-olds they were "baptized by blood into the satanic order which is meant to cancel out their baptism into the Church".[2] Forty-five of Pace's witnesses claimed to have witnessed or participated in human sacrifice, including the killing of babies. Pace said that the alleged perpetrators included "Young Women leaders, Young Men leaders, bishops, a patriarch, a stake president, temple workers, and members of the Tabernacle Choir" and that some of the abuse took place in church meetinghouses.[2] Pace wrote that "when sixty witnesses testify to the same type of torture and murder, it becomes impossible for me, personally, not to believe them."[2][3][4][6] Pace compared these allegations to stories in LDS Church scriptures about secret combinations and Cain's combination with Satan to become Master Mahan.[2] Pace also suggested that the alleged abusers were using and corrupting the oaths in the church's temple endowment ceremony as part of the Satanic abuse, and that many victims had flashbacks when they attended the temple for the first time and were asked to participate in the ceremonies.[2][6] Government investigation In 1991, the Utah State Legislature appropriated $250,000 for the Attorney General's office to investigate the RSA allegations in the state of Utah.[7] Over a 2+1⁄2-year span, the investigators interviewed hundreds of alleged victims, but none of the incidents reported were corroborated with any evidence beyond their testimony,[8][9] and the 1995 report stated that there was no evidence from any of the alleged victims that would warrant an investigation of homicide.[8] Mike King, the coauthor of the report, told news media that the specific accusations against church leaders were "absurd", and Jerry Lazar, the head of psychiatry at LDS Hospital in Salt Lake City, said he "has never been able to independently verify memories of satanic ritual abuse".[10] I think people who listen to the likes of Mr. Bowers may not fully realize or be aware of things Mr. Bowers is saying/espousing. I think these sorts of folks are mostly well-intended, but also overzealous to the point of creating serious difficulties for themselves, people the seek to influence, and the Church. Paul's warning in Romans 10:2-4 about having "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" comes to mind. Does anyone here have more information or thoughts about Mr. Bowers (that is, his public/published statements about the Church)? Thanks, -Smac 1
Kenngo1969 Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 Quote Mike King, the coauthor of the report, told news media that the specific accusations against church leaders were "absurd", and Jerry Lazar, the head of psychiatry at LDS Hospital in Salt Lake City, said he "has never been able to independently verify memories of satanic ritual abuse".[10] For what it's worth, I know Mike King personally, and I trust him implicitly. 2
CA Steve Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 My reaction is that Mr. Bowers does not even pass the smell test. Quote The world is full of evil men conspiring for total control. Composed of religious, financial, and political committees, this secret combination coordinates with other groups to accomplish its ultimate plan a one-world government called the New World Order and a one-world religion led by the Anti-Christ. If you read this and still think Bower is worth investigating, the problem is you are a gullible idiot. Note: I am not saying people like this don't have any have influence, just that it is so clear from the onset how wacko they are that anyone who would even begin to give them credence can be dismissed out of hand. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 45 minutes ago, smac97 said: Ken Bowers is apparently a member of the Church and a conspiracy theorist who goes around talking about controversial topics like satanic ritual abuse. Mr. Bower's appears to be relying mostly on a 1990 memorandum by Elder Glenn L. Pace, then a member of the Presiding Bishopric, that was leaked to the public (a purported copy of it is here). You may recall that there was a fairly widespread "moral panic" prior to and after 1990 about supposed satanic abuse. It appears that Elder Pace, acting in good faith, accumulated stories from people caught up in this panic and passed them on to the Church. As it turns out, there was essentially no substance to the issue. From the above Wikipedia entry. The Pace memorandum In July 1990, Pace, who at the time was a member of the church's presiding bishopric, fulfilled a request by the church's Strengthening Church Members Committee by writing a memorandum about his investigations into alleged incidents of SRA among Latter-day Saints in Utah, Idaho, California, Mexico, and elsewhere.[2] The memorandum was leaked to the press in October 1991.[3][4][5] In his memo, Pace stated that he had met with sixty victims who had recovered memories of ritualistic abuse during their childhood. Pace reported that children were being "instructed in satanic doctrine" and that as eight-year-olds they were "baptized by blood into the satanic order which is meant to cancel out their baptism into the Church".[2] Forty-five of Pace's witnesses claimed to have witnessed or participated in human sacrifice, including the killing of babies. Pace said that the alleged perpetrators included "Young Women leaders, Young Men leaders, bishops, a patriarch, a stake president, temple workers, and members of the Tabernacle Choir" and that some of the abuse took place in church meetinghouses.[2] Pace wrote that "when sixty witnesses testify to the same type of torture and murder, it becomes impossible for me, personally, not to believe them."[2][3][4][6] Pace compared these allegations to stories in LDS Church scriptures about secret combinations and Cain's combination with Satan to become Master Mahan.[2] Pace also suggested that the alleged abusers were using and corrupting the oaths in the church's temple endowment ceremony as part of the Satanic abuse, and that many victims had flashbacks when they attended the temple for the first time and were asked to participate in the ceremonies.[2][6] Ahhh conspiracy theories. The QAnon of Mormonism. Have you heard the one where John Taylor and Willard Richards killed Joseph and Hyrum at Carthage? Or the one where Presidents Monson and Hinckley snuck into President Lee's hospital room when he died? Or the one where President McKay was secretly sealed to his longtime single secretary Clare Middlemiss in polygamy (or sometimes it's President Nelson and Sheri Dew). Why do members of the Church love secret conspiracy theories so much? What is it that draws so many to them? Edited January 14, 2022 by JLHPROF 2
strappinglad Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 Many folks like to revel in supposed " secret knowledge " . 2
sunstoned Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Ken Bowers is apparently a member of the Church and a conspiracy theorist who goes around talking about controversial topics like satanic ritual abuse. He authored a book called Hiding in Plain Sight - Unmasking the Secret Combinations of the Last Days, described on Amazon as follows: The world is full of evil men conspiring for total control. Composed of religious, financial, and political committees, this secret combination coordinates with other groups to accomplish its ultimate plan a one-world government called the New World Order and a one-world religion led by the Anti-Christ. But if this is true, why do so few people know about it? Why isn't it broadcast by the media for all the world to see? One reason is that the media obscures the actions of this great conspiracy. But the greatest reason is that the conspiracy is taking place right before our eyes, staring at us so hard in the face that we can t see it. With new evidence from various experts on the subject, this revised edition of Hiding in Plain Sight examines the combinations that seek to destroy us and exposes the reasoning they use to deceive us. This is a must-read for any Latter-day Saint who wants to outsmart the enemy and win the war against Satan. I looked online a bit and found a YouTube video (uploaded in July 2021) of a presentation by Mr. Bowers (starting at about the 22:18 mark). He then describes a vast conspiracy first described to him by the John Birch Society, which he says he has since confirmed for himself (starting at 23:34):: In my 40 years [of study] I have come to the conclusion that there are three major branches or organizations in this secret combination. The first branch is a political branch, a financial branch, which includes the Federal Reserve. The second one is a political branch which includes the Council on Foreign Relations. And the third one I found out is a religious branch. And the religious branch of this great secret combination is what we are going to study tonight. Satanic ritual abuse is part of it... He goes on to describe something called "Luciferianism," which he says "requires human sacrifice," and that "they do it" and that "usually it's children" who are sacrificed. He goes on to condemn this in unequivocal terms. However, he then proceeds to say that this is happening in the Church: So it [satanic ritual abuse] happens. I have talked with therapists, and I have talked with victims. It is here and it is more prevalent than I think we would like to know about. It's very uncomfortable for us. One of the great questions that we have to ask is 'Does it happen in the LDS Church?', and the answer to that is 'Yes, unequivocally yes.' I wish it didn't, but there are people who are nominally members of the Church who have not been discovered who practice this evil monstrosity. And the next question we should ask is 'Does anybody in leadership in the LDS Church practice it?', and the answer to that is 'Yes.' ... And here's the $64,000 question: 'Do General Authorities practice SRA [satanic ritual abuse]?' I don't know, but I'll give you an opinion. General Authorities in the LDS Church are human, and they are susceptible to fall, they are susceptible to fall prey to false doctrines of any kind. They are susceptible to be able to turn against the LDS Church and become devilish in their minds and in their hearts themselves. As evidence of that we know that Christ had His Judas, Joseph Smith had John C. Bennett, William and Wilson Law, the Foster brothers, the Higbee brothers, and others who turned against him. ... So is it possible that there are members of the General Authorities who practice it [satanic ritual abuse]? It is possible. I don't think so. I don't know of any, but it is possible. But I tell you this, if there are some, and if there is anybody in this audience who came to participate thinking that this might be something that was pro-SRA or something like that. If there is anybody in the audience like this I would tell you to repent now. God has a special place in hell for people who abuse His children. You will weep and wail and gnash your teeth that you ever abused children in such a horrible way. Oi. Mr. Bower's appears to be relying mostly on a 1990 memorandum by Elder Glenn L. Pace, then a member of the Presiding Bishopric, that was leaked to the public (a purported copy of it is here). You may recall that there was a fairly widespread "moral panic" prior to and after 1990 about supposed satanic abuse. It appears that Elder Pace, acting in good faith, accumulated stories from people caught up in this panic and passed them on to the Church. As it turns out, there was essentially no substance to the issue. From the above Wikipedia entry. The Pace memorandum In July 1990, Pace, who at the time was a member of the church's presiding bishopric, fulfilled a request by the church's Strengthening Church Members Committee by writing a memorandum about his investigations into alleged incidents of SRA among Latter-day Saints in Utah, Idaho, California, Mexico, and elsewhere.[2] The memorandum was leaked to the press in October 1991.[3][4][5] In his memo, Pace stated that he had met with sixty victims who had recovered memories of ritualistic abuse during their childhood. Pace reported that children were being "instructed in satanic doctrine" and that as eight-year-olds they were "baptized by blood into the satanic order which is meant to cancel out their baptism into the Church".[2] Forty-five of Pace's witnesses claimed to have witnessed or participated in human sacrifice, including the killing of babies. Pace said that the alleged perpetrators included "Young Women leaders, Young Men leaders, bishops, a patriarch, a stake president, temple workers, and members of the Tabernacle Choir" and that some of the abuse took place in church meetinghouses.[2] Pace wrote that "when sixty witnesses testify to the same type of torture and murder, it becomes impossible for me, personally, not to believe them."[2][3][4][6] Pace compared these allegations to stories in LDS Church scriptures about secret combinations and Cain's combination with Satan to become Master Mahan.[2] Pace also suggested that the alleged abusers were using and corrupting the oaths in the church's temple endowment ceremony as part of the Satanic abuse, and that many victims had flashbacks when they attended the temple for the first time and were asked to participate in the ceremonies.[2][6] Government investigation In 1991, the Utah State Legislature appropriated $250,000 for the Attorney General's office to investigate the RSA allegations in the state of Utah.[7] Over a 2+1⁄2-year span, the investigators interviewed hundreds of alleged victims, but none of the incidents reported were corroborated with any evidence beyond their testimony,[8][9] and the 1995 report stated that there was no evidence from any of the alleged victims that would warrant an investigation of homicide.[8] Mike King, the coauthor of the report, told news media that the specific accusations against church leaders were "absurd", and Jerry Lazar, the head of psychiatry at LDS Hospital in Salt Lake City, said he "has never been able to independently verify memories of satanic ritual abuse".[10] I think people who listen to the likes of Mr. Bowers may not fully realize or be aware of things Mr. Bowers is saying/espousing. I think these sorts of folks are mostly well-intended, but also overzealous to the point of creating serious difficulties for themselves, people the seek to influence, and the Church. Paul's warning in Romans 10:2-4 about having "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" comes to mind. Does anyone here have more information or thoughts about Mr. Bowers (that is, his public/published statements about the Church)? Thanks, -Smac All I needed to hear was John Birch Society and I was done. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Ahhh conspiracy theories. The QAnon of Mormonism. Have you heard the one where John Taylor and Willard Richards killed Joseph and Hyrum at Carthage? Or the one where Presidents Monson and Hinckley snuck into President Lee's hospital room when he died? Or the one where President McKay was secretly sealed to his longtime single secretary Clare Middlemiss in polygamy (or sometimes it's President Nelson and Sheri Dew). Why do members of the Church love secret conspiracy theories so much? What is it that draws so many to them? These are very interesting questions. Obviously, Mormons are not the only ones susceptible to conspiracy theories but I read an article recently which theorized that people who buy into conspiracy theories want to feel like they are special and part of an elite group with inside knowledge. The article wasn't about any religious group but IF that theory were true it would seem to me that Mormons (as a people) could fit into that type of group. If you consider a kind of gnostic religious knowledge found in the temples or received through rituals like the 2nd anointing, it would seem fitting for members to be open to the possibility that they had an inside track on important information that others don't. 1
Popular Post strappinglad Posted January 14, 2022 Popular Post Posted January 14, 2022 9 minutes ago, sunstoned said: John Birch Society Have you heard of the Birch John Society.? They are a splinter group. 6
JLHPROF Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 36 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: If you consider a kind of gnostic religious knowledge found in the temples or received through rituals like the 2nd anointing, it would seem fitting for members to be open to the possibility that they had an inside track on important information that others don't. There's a difference between the ideas of paranoid man and the ordinances revealed by revelation. But I think in either case it becomes a matter of faith. But I do see the connection. Gnosticism, temple ordinances, conspiracies - God given vs Satan's counterfeits.
The Nehor Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 45 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: These are very interesting questions. Obviously, Mormons are not the only ones susceptible to conspiracy theories but I read an article recently which theorized that people who buy into conspiracy theories want to feel like they are special and part of an elite group with inside knowledge. The article wasn't about any religious group but IF that theory were true it would seem to me that Mormons (as a people) could fit into that type of group. If you consider a kind of gnostic religious knowledge found in the temples or received through rituals like the 2nd anointing, it would seem fitting for members to be open to the possibility that they had an inside track on important information that others don't. That is one explanation. Other prominent ones include: 1. A need for high drama. They need an especially vile enemy to combat. They want to be heroes and need a villain. Often because the believers in conspiracy theories have nothing heroic in their character the villains must be super vile so that exposing them along is heroic. 2. A desire to make sense of the world. All-encompassing conspiracy theories reassures people there is some logic behind the randomness they encounter. Usually the motive of the group is malignant but it is incomprehensible. It allows you to ascribe negative events to someone and blame them for it. This is often suspected to be the case with those who experience some difficulty and need someone to blame. Think anti-vaxxers with an autistic child. It can also just be trying to explain failures or difficulties experienced and having someone to blame is just comforting. 3. Sometimes it is just camaraderie. They feel accepted by other believers and adopt the beliefs to fit in. This is very common amongst children and teenagers who play games of make believe about previous lives or secret identities or whatever. Most grow out of it. Some don’t. 4. They just be crazy. 4
Flyonthewall Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 Reminds me of a Youth Fireside(do they even have those anymore?) back in the 70's, the speaker spoke about Witches in the music industry that would write and perform music that would communicate with your spirit to entice it/you away from the correct path...using tools such as backmasking, phrases that only your subconscious would understand, imagery etc.
MiserereNobis Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 56 minutes ago, Flyonthewall said: Reminds me of a Youth Fireside(do they even have those anymore?) back in the 70's, the speaker spoke about Witches in the music industry that would write and perform music that would communicate with your spirit to entice it/you away from the correct path...using tools such as backmasking, phrases that only your subconscious would understand, imagery etc. No wonder 70s classic rock is so good -- there be witchery in that music! 3
The Nehor Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 The whole Pizzagate and international political cabal of pedophiles thing is a direct descendant of the Satanism scares. I also do not accept that those who hold these beliefs are well-intentioned. If you are well-intentioned and believe something vile about someone and evidence comes out that it is not that bad or is untrue it would be a lifeline. Who really wants to believe that there are satanic child sacrifices and that all political leadership are forced to become pedophiles? Turn out a lot of people want to believe it. Quote C.S. Lewis: Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one's first feeling, 'Thank God, even they aren't quite so bad as that,' or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally we shall insist on seeing everything -- God and our friends and ourselves included -- as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed for ever in a universe of pure hatred. 2
smac97 Posted January 15, 2022 Author Posted January 15, 2022 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: That is one explanation. Other prominent ones include: 1. A need for high drama. They need an especially vile enemy to combat. They want to be heroes and need a villain. Often because the believers in conspiracy theories have nothing heroic in their character the villains must be super vile so that exposing them along is heroic. I think this is a solid point. I think it may also be applicable in some instances where a former member of the Church resorts to over-the-top rhetoric and anger. The Church, in their view, needs to be "an especially vile enemy to combat," a "villain." Sam Young hyperbole comes to mind. 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: 2. A desire to make sense of the world. All-encompassing conspiracy theories reassures people there is some logic behind the randomness they encounter. Usually the motive of the group is malignant but it is incomprehensible. It allows you to ascribe negative events to someone and blame them for it. This is often suspected to be the case with those who experience some difficulty and need someone to blame. Think anti-vaxxers with an autistic child. It can also just be trying to explain failures or difficulties experienced and having someone to blame is just comforting. Also a very good point. I had not considered this. Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted January 15, 2022 Author Posted January 15, 2022 32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: These are very interesting questions. Obviously, Mormons are not the only ones susceptible to conspiracy theories but I read an article recently which theorized that people who buy into conspiracy theories want to feel like they are special and part of an elite group with inside knowledge. I was previously in the Army National Guard, in a Military Intelligence Battalion (basically, linguists). Part of the job involved getting a "Top Secret" security clearance. So I had to fill out a bunch of paperwork, an investigator for the feds (a retired FBI agent) came to my employer's place of business and interviewed my supervisor and a few co-workers, and after a while I was notified that I had been given the clearance. This meant that I could now attend classified briefings. I admit, I thought this was all pretty cool. I felt "special." I was going to be privy to information that is "Top Secret." Alas, the feeling went away pretty quickly when I began to attend these briefings, which did indeed involve sensitive information. But "sensitive" does not mean "interesting." Virtually all of it was pretty boring. I could see how some of it could be potentially damaging if it got into the wrong hands, but the information itself, and the topics that information illuminated, were - in and of themselves - pretty dull. Years later I became licensed as an attorney, which often involves me becoming privy to information that is both sensitive and interesing. However, my ethical responsibilities preclude me from divulging any of these things. Because I take these responsibilities seriously, and because I value my bar license (which could be imperiled if I breached those responsibilities), and because I have been doing this job for a long time, any sense of "specialness" for having access to such information is long gone. Maintaining confidentiality is just a part of the gig. So I think there are a few components going on with conspiracy wonks: A) they feel like they have been given specialized access to not-available-to-John-Q-Public information, B) they feel that this information is important / salacious / newsworthy / cool, C) they lack the means to competently evaluate the probative value and provenance of this information, but D) the feel so cool (prideful?) about (A) and (B) that they don't really bother with meaningful efforts to do (C), and instead just pass along the information with breathless zeal because of (B). And it's not just conspiracy wonks who do this. Self-appointed crusaders can be susceptible to this sort of thing (Sam Young comes to mind). 32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: The article wasn't about any religious group but IF that theory were true it would seem to me that Mormons (as a people) could fit into that type of group. I dunno. There are plenty of Latter-day Saints who do not buy into this stuff. 32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: If you consider a kind of gnostic religious knowledge found in the temples or received through rituals like the 2nd anointing, it would seem fitting for members to be open to the possibility that they had an inside track on important information that others don't. Correlation, maybe. But I'm not seeing causation. "{People who} want to feel like they are special and part of an elite group with inside knowledge" could be applied to people from pretty much all walks of life. Thanks, -Smac 1
SkyRock Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 Never heard of Ken Bowers. I view most LDS conspiracy theorists as poorly grounded in history and lacking critical thinking skills. Of course, they then tend to start calling themselves prophets or having visions and the next thing you know, they are off in the wilderness creating an end of the world cult and molesting children or killing children in their backyard.... However, we are told about secret combinations and such in the BoM and told we will have them in our days. So we do need to be open minded enough to accept that there are corrupt groups and practices, but not jump off a cliff of lunacy just because someone claims they had a vision. One could almost imagine the Nephites before Samuel the Lamanite got on the wall. They still believed they were righteous and the Lamanites were wicked, no matter the truth of the matter. They likely viewed Samuel the Lamanite as a conspiracy theorist. The wicked Nephites even created a conspiracy to kill all the righteous Nephites, and unknowingly set the date for the very date of the sign of Christ's birth. And then, after a short time of righteousness, listened to Satan's lies to excuse the great sins they had seen. We need to make sure we are not like those wicked Nephites. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AwFqSWCj7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbsWb4AjHfw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Tbs3i-5D0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U9FrgV0cxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3eOzBeI4L0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlOzCBH-Cwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjTv5yRJK0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W63yflgIFA
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 6 hours ago, smac97 said: .............. I think people who listen to the likes of Mr. Bowers may not fully realize or be aware of things Mr. Bowers is saying/espousing. I think these sorts of folks are mostly well-intended, but also overzealous to the point of creating serious difficulties for themselves, people the seek to influence, and the Church. Paul's warning in Romans 10:2-4 about having "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" comes to mind....................... It isn't far from there to the Daybell Doomsday Cult. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 1 hour ago, SkyRock said: ........................... We need to make sure we are not like those wicked Nephites. You mean we shouldn't be saying things like "All is well in Zion"?
SkyRock Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 45 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You mean we shouldn't be saying things like "All is well in Zion"? Exactly. All is never well in Zion. It is full of sin. The decline among the church in the BoM is a type for what will happen in the Last Days, which are now. If a Samuel the Lamanite climbed upon the wall around Temple Square and started calling the church to repentance, he would most likely be arrested and sent for mental evaluation if caught, if not shot. 2
Navidad Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 Certainly he must be a radical evangelical in disguise! 🙃 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 2 hours ago, SkyRock said: Exactly. All is never well in Zion. It is full of sin. The decline among the church in the BoM is a type for what will happen in the Last Days, which are now. If a Samuel the Lamanite climbed upon the wall around Temple Square and started calling the church to repentance, he would most likely be arrested and sent for mental evaluation if caught, if not shot. We used to joke that, if Jesus showed up on campus at BYU in beard, robe, and sandals, he would be arrested -- there is a nice state mental hospital at the east end of Center st.
JLHPROF Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: We used to joke that, if Jesus showed up on campus at BYU in beard, robe, and sandals, he would be arrested -- there is a nice state mental hospital at the east end of Center st. What do you think the governments will do when he returns in glory? They'll try to shoot him down! 1
Vanguard Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AwFqSWCj7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbsWb4AjHfw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Tbs3i-5D0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U9FrgV0cxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3eOzBeI4L0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlOzCBH-Cwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjTv5yRJK0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W63yflgIFA The 2nd & last link were very nice. In those two clips he gave a wonderful message. What exactly were these clips supposed to reflect?
The Nehor Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: We used to joke that, if Jesus showed up on campus at BYU in beard, robe, and sandals, he would be arrested -- there is a nice state mental hospital at the east end of Center st. I would assume it was a victim of Jerusalem Syndrome except the Provo version. One thing that amused me in one end of days book I read is that the two witnesses show up (Moses and Elijah in that version) and everyone acts like it is a big event. Instead it would have been more like: “Got another Elijah and Moses here. Where should I put them?” ”Room 1 is full of Jesuses and Room 2 has a bunch of Abrahams. Room 3 I guess.”
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