Catholic "Ordinariates" - Any corollary in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

[smac97]

This morning I came across this article: Ex Anglican Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali converts to Catholicism

Some excerpts:

Quote

Michael Nazir-Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester and one of the best-known Anglican clerics, could be ordained as a Catholic priest as early as next month.

I can see how the religious conversion of a prominent Anglican to Catholicism could be newsworthy.  On my mission in Taiwan (1993-95) I became acquainted with an elderly member, Hsieh Fang, who had previously been a Catholic priest but had later left the priesthood and, a few years later, met the missionaries and joined the Church.

Quote

The conversion of such a high-profile intellectual would be an enormous boost for the Catholic Ordinariate, set up by Pope Benedict XVI to receive Anglicans into the Roman church. Friends of Nazir-Ali say that he has already converted and is now a member of the Ordinariate which over the years has seen several Anglican clergy, many of them married, serve as Catholic priests. Its services are distinctively Anglican in style and include passages from the Book of Common Prayer.
...
Reports suggest that, at the end of this month, Nazir-Ali will be ordained a Catholic priest by Cardinal Vincent Nichols. Significantly, the ceremony is scheduled to take place in the Ordinariate's church in Warwick Street, Soho, rather than in Westminster Cathedral.

Because he is married, Nazir-Ali cannot be ordained a Catholic bishop – although, before the Ordinariate was set up, Pope Benedict seriously considered allowing him to become one. Nazir-Ali is a fervent admirer of the Pope Emeritus. Although identified with the evangelical wing of the Church of England, he has always been well disposed to Roman Catholicism, having been educated by Catholics as a child in Karachi

The "ordinariate" referenced here is further described and explained here:

Quote

A personal ordinariate, sometimes called a "personal ordinariate for former Anglicans"^[1][2] or more informally an "Anglican ordinariate",^[3] is a canonical structure within the Catholic Church established in order to enable "groups of Anglicans"^[4] to join the Catholic Church while preserving elements of their liturgical and spiritual patrimony.

Created in accordance with the apostolic constitution Anglicanorum coetibus of 4 November 2009^[5][6][7][8] and its complementary norms,^[9] the ordinariates are juridically equivalent to a diocese,^[10] "a particular church in which and from which exists the one and unique Catholic Church",^[11] but may be erected in the same territory as other dioceses "by reason of the rite of the faithful or some similar reason".^[11]

Three primarily Anglophone ordinariates were established between 2011 and 2012:

• Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham (England and Wales, Scotland)
• Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter (United States, Canada)
• Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross (Australia, Japan)

"Personal ordinariate" is the term used for each of the three existing ordinariates in the decree that established them: the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham,^[12] the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter^[13] and the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross. It is also the collective name given to all three in the official yearbook of the Holy See^[14] and is a name the ordinariates themselves use.^[15][16][17]

"Ordinariates for former Anglicans" is a term sometimes used by the ordinariates themselves,^[18][19] by news sources (but not official documents) of the Holy See^[20] and episcopal conferences.^[21] This terminology, however, does not mean that an ordinariate's membership exclusively comprises former Anglicans.
...
The structure of an ordinariate enables Anglicans to enter into full communion with the Pope while preserving some degree of corporate identity and autonomy from the geographical dioceses for other Catholics of the Latin Church (also known as the "Latin Rite") and maintaining distinctive elements of their Anglican "theological, spiritual and liturgical patrimony".^[54] The ordinariates integrate these groups in such ways as "to maintain the liturgical, spiritual and pastoral traditions of the Anglican Communion within the Catholic Church, as a precious gift nourishing the faith of the members of the Ordinariate and as a treasure to be shared",^[29][55][56] is part of "the Latin Rite, within the full communion of the Catholic Church and professes all that church's doctrine on faith and morals."^[29][30][57]

And here:

Fascinating stuff.

There is not really much of a corollary to this in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I think the closest we get to it is Polynesian (and possibly "Native American") wards/stakes.  The Church has YSA ("Young Single Adult") wards to cater to the partciular needs of young (under 30) members that may more fully met than in a regular ward.  We also have "language" wards (my stake has a Spanish-speaking ward and a Japanese-speaking ward).  These are set up mostly to accommodate members who face a language barrier, or who may be more comfortable in attending church in a particular language.  For example, I served my mission in Taiwan and was initially assigned to Shih Lin, a suburb of Taipei that had an English-speaking ward (the only one on the island at the time) that was heavily attended by Filippino members of the Church living in Taiwan.  

Utah County currently has two Tongan stakes.  See this 2019 item:

Quote

The Church organized its fifth Tongan-speaking stake in Utah on May 19th. The Orem Utah 2nd (Tongan) Stake was organized from a division of the Provo Utah Wasatch (Tongan) Stake (renamed Provo Utah 1st Stake (Tongan). The new stake includes the following eight wards and one branch: the American Fork 2nd Ward (Tongan), Eagle Mountain 13th Ward (Tongan), Eagle Mountain 14th Ward (Samoan), Lehi 41st Ward (Tongan), Lehi 42nd Wad (Samoan), Orem 8th Ward (Tongan), Orem 13th Ward (Samoan), and Pleasant Grove 10th Ward (Samoan), and the Saratoga Springs 12th Branch (Tongan). It is unclear why the Church did not organize a Samoan-speaking stake instead of a second Tongan-speaking stake, albeit Tongan and Samoan-speaking units are often included in the same stakes in the United States. There are now 602 stakes and one district in Utah.

Currently 15 wards and one branch in the Provo Utah 1st Stake (Tongan) - seven wards and one branch of which are Samoan-speaking congregations. Thus, it appears likely that the Church's first Samoan-speaking stake outside of the Samoan islands will likely be organized in the near future.

My brother is currently the bishop of one of the above-referenced wards (Pleasant Grove 10th).  He says that in his ward Sacrament Meeting is in English, but the hymns are in Samoan.  Most talks are in English, though "rare" talks in Samoan by older members happen.  They have two Gospel Doctrine and EQ classes, one each taught in Samoan and one in English.  

In other words, my brother's "Samoan" ward (FYI, his wife is Samoan) is much more about accommodating and enriching the members' (or, more broadly, Polynesian) sense of cultural community than in accommodating their language needs/preferences (see, e.g.,, here).  My stake's Spanish-speaking ward is somewhat similar in this regard.  There is obviously linguistic unity (Spanish), but I think not as much shared culture since its members are from a variety of Spanish-speaking countries.

After reading the linked article about the Ordinariate, I texted my brother and asked him some questions about his ward.  He obliged, then asked about my curiosity.  I texted back:

Quote

I came across an article about the Anglican Ordinariate. Special "diocese"-style groupings within the Catholic Church that are specifically designed to accommodate converted Anglicans. These were set up in 2009 by Pope Benedict. Each ordinariate is led by an "Ordinary" appointed by the Pope. If married, they can't be ordained as a bishop, but they wear the same vestments and function in the same way. Anyway, I was just thinking that we don't really have a corollary to this in the Church, and that perhaps the closest we get to it is Polynesian and Native American wards, which seem to be centered less on addressing language barriers and more about accommodating sociocultural issues. Would you concur?

He did concur. 

I am not familiar with the Church's "Native American" wards (Provo's "Franklin 2nd Ward" being an example), but I surmise that the services are in (mostly) English, and that the purpose of the ward is to accommodate sociocultural issues, rather than linguistic ones.  As noted above, the "language" wards in my stake are, well, in my stake (the other units in it being regular "family" wards).  However, my brother's ward is in one of the two "Tongan" stakes in Utah County.  These stakes, then, seem to be the closest we get to the diocese-esque "ordinariates" described above.

Anyway, thoughts?  A few questions/thoughts to get the ball rolling:

1. I don't see the Church setting up special wards/stakes to accommodate members' previous religious heritage (such as a ward for former Catholics).  Do you agree?

2. I do see the Church setting up special wards/stakes to accommodate mostly cultural considerations (such as Polynesian and Native American wards/stakes).  Do you agree?

3. Can the Church's "language" wards also end up providing more de facto "cultural" accommodations (as opposed to linguistic accommodations)?

4. The two "Tongan" (Polynesian, really) stakes in Utah County are, by my understanding, really successful in terms of, well, pretty much every metric the Church uses.  Tons of turnout for ward/stake activities, temple nights, etc.  The youth programs are doing really well.  I think this may stem from a shared sense of community/heritage that is doubly strong: both Latter-day Saint and Polynesian.  But I'm just surmising here.  Does anyone here have more experience on this, such that they can speak more intelligently than me?

5. I wonder whether this doubled strength that seems to be happening with our Polynesian brothers and sisters, derived from shared A) religious identity and B) broader cultural identity, can (or ought to) be replicated.  It seems . . . not.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 14, 2021 by smac97

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

There is obviously linguistic unity (Spanish), but I think not as much shared culture since its members are from a variety of Spanish-speaking countries.

This is an interesting observation because I've been told a couple of times that one thing we (the white people) don't understand about the Spanish speaking branch in our stake is how many different cultures they come from.  Apparently these different cultural backgrounds cause some ruffled feathers from time to time.

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

This is an interesting observation because I've been told a couple of times that one thing we (the white people) don't understand about the Spanish speaking branch in our stake is how many different cultures they come from.  Apparently these different cultural backgrounds cause some ruffled feathers from time to time.

Yep.  Shared language is hardly the same thing as shared culture.  I wonder if there may be some hackles raised in the Church's Mandarin-speaking wards as between members from China and members from, say, Taiwan.  Same language, often the same ethnicity too (Han), but very different cultural backgrounds.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

................................

The "ordinariate" ........................................

There is not really much of a corollary to this in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I think the closest we get to it is Polynesian (and possibly "Native American") wards/stakes.  The Church has YSA ("Young Single Adult") wards to cater to the partciular needs of young (under 30) members that may more fully met than in a regular ward.  We also have "language" wards (my stake has a Spanish-speaking ward and a Japanese-speaking ward).  These are set up mostly to accommodate members who face a language barrier, or who may be more comfortable in attending church in a particular language.  For example, I served my mission in Taiwan and was initially assigned to Shih Lin, a suburb of Taipei that had an English-speaking ward (the only one on the island at the time) that was heavily attended by Filippino members of the Church living in Taiwan.  .....................

There have been quite a few famous conversions from the Church of England priesthood to Roman Catholic priesthood, and those priests bring their wives and children with them.  Being a Roman Catholic priest does not require celibacy, which is only a practice, not a doctrine.

Quote

The Catholic Church is not a uniform, monolithic entity. Rather, it is comprised of 24 individual sui iuris churches that “enjoy their own discipline, their own liturgical usage, and their own theological and spiritual heritage” (Lumen Gentium, no. 23). The Latin Church is the largest of these churches, but there are also 23 unique Eastern Catholic Churches. These churches are in full communion with Rome, and together with the Latin Church form the one Catholic Church. The Latin Catholic Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches share the same pope (Pope Francis), the same sacraments (including the Eucharist) and the same Catholic faith. Yet each of the 24 churches expresses this faith in its own unique way.

It is the longstanding practice within Eastern Catholicism to ordain married men to the priesthood. Media outlets sometimes erroneously report that these churches “allow priests to marry” or don’t practice celibacy. These and other myths give the false impression that the Eastern Catholic discipline contradicts the Latin discipline of priestly celibacy, or (worse yet) is a direct challenge to it. But as we shall see, the two disciplines are not as far apart as they appear.  https://www.ncregister.com/blog/5-myths-about-married-priests-in-eastern-catholicism

The only analogy I can think of is the recognition in the D&C of lineal descendants of Aaron, whose right to the priesthood of Aaron is separate from the LDS mode of passing on priesthood.  In any case, such Aaronic priesthood holders may serve as an LDS bishop only with approval by the First Presidency.  However, they already function with complete authority in Jewish synagogues, and will likewise be able to function in full within the future Jewish temple to be built in Jerusalem.  The D&C suggests that such Jewish functions are the only case outside the LDS Church which possess full authority from God.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

This morning I came across this article: Ex Anglican Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali converts to Catholicism

Some excerpts:

I can see how the religious conversion of a prominent Anglican to Catholicism could be newsworthy.  On my mission in Taiwan (1993-95) I became acquainted with an elderly member, Hsieh Fang, who had previously been a Catholic priest but had later left the priesthood and, a few years later, met the missionaries and joined the Church.

The "ordinariate" referenced here is further described and explained here:

And here:

Fascinating stuff.

There is not really much of a corollary to this in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I think the closest we get to it is Polynesian (and possibly "Native American") wards/stakes.  The Church has YSA ("Young Single Adult") wards to cater to the partciular needs of young (under 30) members that may more fully met than in a regular ward.  We also have "language" wards (my stake has a Spanish-speaking ward and a Japanese-speaking ward).  These are set up mostly to accommodate members who face a language barrier, or who may be more comfortable in attending church in a particular language.  For example, I served my mission in Taiwan and was initially assigned to Shih Lin, a suburb of Taipei that had an English-speaking ward (the only one on the island at the time) that was heavily attended by Filippino members of the Church living in Taiwan.  

Utah County currently has two Tongan stakes.  See this 2019 item:

My brother is currently the bishop of one of the above-referenced wards (Pleasant Grove 10th).  He says that in his ward Sacrament Meeting is in English, but the hymns are in Samoan.  Most talks are in English, though "rare" talks in Samoan by older members happen.  They have two Gospel Doctrine and EQ classes, one each taught in Samoan and one in English.  

In other words, my brother's "Samoan" ward (FYI, his wife is Samoan) is much more about accommodating and enriching the members' (or, more broadly, Polynesian) sense of cultural community than in accommodating their language needs/preferences (see, e.g.,, here).  My stake's Spanish-speaking ward is somewhat similar in this regard.  There is obviously linguistic unity (Spanish), but I think not as much shared culture since its members are from a variety of Spanish-speaking countries.

After reading the linked article about the Ordinariate, I texted my brother and asked him some questions about his ward.  He obliged, then asked about my curiosity.  I texted back:

He did concur. 

I am not familiar with the Church's "Native American" wards (Provo's "Franklin 2nd Ward" being an example), but I surmise that the services are in (mostly) English, and that the purpose of the ward is to accommodate sociocultural issues, rather than linguistic ones.  As noted above, the "language" wards in my stake are, well, in my stake (the other units in it being regular "family" wards).  However, my brother's ward is in one of the two "Tongan" stakes in Utah County.  These stakes, then, seem to be the closest we get to the diocese-esque "ordinariates" described above.

Anyway, thoughts?  A few questions/thoughts to get the ball rolling:

1. I don't see the Church setting up special wards/stakes to accommodate members' previous religious heritage (such as a ward for former Catholics).  Do you agree?

2. I do see the Church setting up special wards/stakes to accommodate mostly cultural considerations (such as Polynesian and Native American wards/stakes).  Do you agree?

3. Can the Church's "language" wards also end up providing more de facto "cultural" accommodations (as opposed to linguistic accommodations)?

4. The two "Tongan" (Polynesian, really) stakes in Utah County are, by my understanding, really successful in terms of, well, pretty much every metric the Church uses.  Tons of turnout for ward/stake activities, temple nights, etc.  The youth programs are doing really well.  I think this may stem from a shared sense of community/heritage that is doubly strong: both Latter-day Saint and Polynesian.  But I'm just surmising here.  Does anyone here have more experience on this, such that they can speak more intelligently than me?

5. I wonder whether this doubled strength that seems to be happening with our Polynesian brothers and sisters, derived from shared A) religious identity and B) broader cultural identity, can (or ought to) be replicated.  It seems . . . not.  

Thanks,

-Smac

I have been a member of several different spanish language units (currently attending one right now).

In my opinion, its usually a cultural thing.  Many members already speak english well, they just don't feel comfortable with the culture of the regular wards for one reason or another.  In the current stake their are also  families who don't speak english very well (one of them is in the high council) but are comfortable with the culture of the regular ward and prefer to stay in the regular wards.

In my opinion this segregration brings problems, in that the regular wards don't get the opportunity to minister and experience to people who are culturaly and linguistically differnet from them and the members of the spanish units don't get the benifit of the stronger church members and church program in general available in the regular wards.  

As a general rule the stronger church members are more comfortable in the regular wards and tend to stay their regardless of linguistic ability. 

 

 

[smac97]

29 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I have been a member of several different spanish language units (currently attending one right now).

In my opinion, its usually a cultural thing.  Many members already speak english well, they just don't feel comfortable with the culture of the regular wards for one reason or another.  In the current stake their are also  families who don't speak english very well (one of them is in the high council) but are comfortable with the culture of the regular ward and prefer to stay in the regular wards.

So do you think there is a mix?  That the "language" wards are to accommodate cultural discomfort as much as linguistic?

29 minutes ago, Danzo said:

In my opinion this segregration brings problems, in that the regular wards don't get the opportunity to minister and experience to people who are culturaly and linguistically differnet from them and the members of the spanish units don't get the benifit of the stronger church members and church program in general available in the regular wards.  

Yes, I can see that.  The "segregation" is self-imposed and self-selected, and so is distinguishable from the invidious de jure and de facto segregation of yesteryear.  But this sort of segregation does seem to bring some problems with it.  But then, I think dissolving the language units would bring another set of problems, likely a lower activity rate.

29 minutes ago, Danzo said:

As a general rule the stronger church members are more comfortable in the regular wards and tend to stay their regardless of linguistic ability. 

Yes, it would seem assimilation into the local culture is usually the best way to go.  But I wonder if the Polynesian wards in Utah County are an exception to that rule.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bOObOO]

I’m still a little amazed that the Church has different ward or branches in the same areas distinguished mainly by cultural differences, apparently established mainly for that reason.  For different languages, I can understand, otherwise we would need some interpreters to help people understand a language they do not know.  But for cultural differences, I don’t get it.  I think the more we interact and relate with people of other cultures, the more we can benefit from that mingling together.  And the more we separate because of our differences, the more we will remain separated.  I really appreciate the experiences I have had mingling with people from other cultures.  So much so that I tend to like foods from other cultures more than I like so-called American foods.  Well, except maybe for barbeque which I learned to make and appreciate while growing up in a smallish Texas town.  And I grew up in neighborhoods mixed with blacks, whites, and Hispanics, all with varying cultural differences.  I saw very few Asians, Russians, people from the Middle East and their foods are some of my favorites now.  Not that their ideas about food are the only things about them that I appreciate.  I also appreciate just knowing what they think and how they think about some other things.

[Danzo]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So do you think there is a mix?  That the "language" wards are to accommodate cultural discomfort as much as linguistic?

Yes, I can see that.  The "segregation" is self-imposed and self-selected, and so is distinguishable from the invidious de jure and de facto segregation of yesteryear.  But this sort of segregation does seem to bring some problems with it.  But then, I think dissolving the language units would bring another set of problems, likely a lower activity rate.

Yes, it would seem assimilation into the local culture is usually the best way to go.  But I wonder if the Polynesian wards in Utah County are an exception to that rule.

Thanks,

-Smac

A few years ago, the spanish unit was dissolved in our stake.   Many of marginally inactive people in the branch went less active.  The more active members of the spanish units seem to have become more active than they were in the spanish unit (stake callings, melchedezic priesthood ordinations, missions, etc).  

Now that a spanish unit was reorganized about six months ago its interesting that many of the more active spanish language members don't want to go back to the spanish unit.  One family expressed privately that really don't want to go back to having the whole unit being placed on their shoulders and love the support of the members in their unit.  This was a fairly young family.

On the other hand, there are people that were less active that are returning to activity in the new spanish unit.  Many of the older spanish people, the sisters especially were having a hard time integrating with the regular wards.   Its a battle for both sides, Its hard for someone who doesn't speak the language to seek out friends with the regular ward members and its hard for the regular members to know how to aproach someone different than them.

When the spanish unit originally disolved, I was called as a kind of spanish liason to the hispanic members in our area.  I was invited to ward counsel and had regual meetings with the bishop to discuss the needs of the spanish members of the ward. I think there was a lot of success in that approach.  I was able to explain some of the cultural and legal difficulties of the spanish ward members (Some of them didn't have drivers licenses so they should be asked to give rides to temple trips as an example).  The spanish members had someone they could talk to and communicate the needs to the bishop.  One of the families was basically living in a garage and the ward worked together to provide heaters, and supplies to help this family. Many members were shocked that people in the US live in those conditions and they would have been oblivious still if our ward didn't have the experiance of serving them.   One family member developed cataracts and since they weren't legal he couldn't get any medicaid help.  The ward found an eye surgeon that was able to do remove the cataracts without any charge.  Members of the family were asked to give talks and they gave them with a translator to translate them to english. The family eventually went to the temple together and got sealed. Even though the adults didn't speak very much english they woudl come to church and everyone would give them hugs and they felt very welcome. They would even visit our ward often after they moved because they had such a good experience. 

Integrating different cultures and languages certianly is hard and doesn't always succeed, but when it does, everyone is blessed by the effort and by the outcome. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Danzo

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

A few years ago, the spanish unit was dissolved in our stake.   Many of marginally inactive people in the branch went less active.  The more active members of the spanish units seem to have become more active than they were in the spanish unit (stake callings, melchedezic priesthood ordinations, missions, etc).  

Now that a spanish unit was reorganized about six months ago its interesting that many of the more active spanish language members don't want to go back to the spanish unit.  One family expressed privately that really don't want to go back to having the whole unit being placed on their shoulders and love the support of the members in their unit.  This was a fairly young family.

On the other hand, there are people that were less active that are returning to activity in the new spanish unit.  Many of the older spanish people, the sisters especially were having a hard time integrating with the regular wards.   Its a battle for both sides, Its hard for someone who doesn't speak the language to seek out friends with the regular ward members and its hard for the regular members to know how to aproach someone different than them.

When the spanish unit originally disolved, I was called as a kind of spanish liason to the hispanic members in our area.  I was invited to ward counsel and had regual meetings with the bishop to discuss the needs of the spanish members of the ward. I think there was a lot of success in that approach.  I was able to explain some of the cultural and legal difficulties of the spanish ward members (Some of them didn't have drivers licenses so they should be asked to give rides to temple trips as an example).  The spanish members had someone they could talk to and communicate the needs to the bishop.  One of the families was basically living in a garage and the ward worked together to provide heaters, and supplies to help this family. Many members were shocked that people in the US live in those conditions and they would have been oblivious still if our ward didn't have the experiance of serving them.   One family member developed cataracts and since they weren't legal he couldn't get any medicaid help.  The ward found an eye surgeon that was able to do remove the cataracts without any charge.  Members of the family were asked to give talks and they gave them with a translator to translate them to english. The family eventually went to the temple together and got sealed. Even though the adults didn't speak very much english they woudl come to church and everyone would give them hugs and they felt very welcome. They would even visit our ward often after they moved because they had such a good experience. 

Integrating different cultures and languages certianly is hard and doesn't always succeed, but when it does, everyone is blessed by the effort and by the outcome. 

Very interesting.  Thank you for sharing.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

This morning I came across this article: Ex Anglican Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali converts to Catholicism

Some excerpts:

I can see how the religious conversion of a prominent Anglican to Catholicism could be newsworthy.  On my mission in Taiwan (1993-95) I became acquainted with an elderly member, Hsieh Fang, who had previously been a Catholic priest but had later left the priesthood and, a few years later, met the missionaries and joined the Church.

The "ordinariate" referenced here is further described and explained here:

And here:

Fascinating stuff.

There is not really much of a corollary to this in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I think the closest we get to it is Polynesian (and possibly "Native American") wards/stakes.  The Church has YSA ("Young Single Adult") wards to cater to the partciular needs of young (under 30) members that may more fully met than in a regular ward.  We also have "language" wards (my stake has a Spanish-speaking ward and a Japanese-speaking ward).  These are set up mostly to accommodate members who face a language barrier, or who may be more comfortable in attending church in a particular language.  For example, I served my mission in Taiwan and was initially assigned to Shih Lin, a suburb of Taipei that had an English-speaking ward (the only one on the island at the time) that was heavily attended by Filippino members of the Church living in Taiwan.  

Utah County currently has two Tongan stakes.  See this 2019 item:

My brother is currently the bishop of one of the above-referenced wards (Pleasant Grove 10th).  He says that in his ward Sacrament Meeting is in English, but the hymns are in Samoan.  Most talks are in English, though "rare" talks in Samoan by older members happen.  They have two Gospel Doctrine and EQ classes, one each taught in Samoan and one in English.  

In other words, my brother's "Samoan" ward (FYI, his wife is Samoan) is much more about accommodating and enriching the members' (or, more broadly, Polynesian) sense of cultural community than in accommodating their language needs/preferences (see, e.g.,, here).  My stake's Spanish-speaking ward is somewhat similar in this regard.  There is obviously linguistic unity (Spanish), but I think not as much shared culture since its members are from a variety of Spanish-speaking countries.

After reading the linked article about the Ordinariate, I texted my brother and asked him some questions about his ward.  He obliged, then asked about my curiosity.  I texted back:

He did concur. 

I am not familiar with the Church's "Native American" wards (Provo's "Franklin 2nd Ward" being an example), but I surmise that the services are in (mostly) English, and that the purpose of the ward is to accommodate sociocultural issues, rather than linguistic ones.  As noted above, the "language" wards in my stake are, well, in my stake (the other units in it being regular "family" wards).  However, my brother's ward is in one of the two "Tongan" stakes in Utah County.  These stakes, then, seem to be the closest we get to the diocese-esque "ordinariates" described above.

Anyway, thoughts?  A few questions/thoughts to get the ball rolling:

1. I don't see the Church setting up special wards/stakes to accommodate members' previous religious heritage (such as a ward for former Catholics).  Do you agree?

2. I do see the Church setting up special wards/stakes to accommodate mostly cultural considerations (such as Polynesian and Native American wards/stakes).  Do you agree?

3. Can the Church's "language" wards also end up providing more de facto "cultural" accommodations (as opposed to linguistic accommodations)?

4. The two "Tongan" (Polynesian, really) stakes in Utah County are, by my understanding, really successful in terms of, well, pretty much every metric the Church uses.  Tons of turnout for ward/stake activities, temple nights, etc.  The youth programs are doing really well.  I think this may stem from a shared sense of community/heritage that is doubly strong: both Latter-day Saint and Polynesian.  But I'm just surmising here.  Does anyone here have more experience on this, such that they can speak more intelligently than me?

5. I wonder whether this doubled strength that seems to be happening with our Polynesian brothers and sisters, derived from shared A) religious identity and B) broader cultural identity, can (or ought to) be replicated.  It seems . . . not.  

Thanks,

-Smac

And neeeeeoooow, for your listening plea-ay-sure, we will heeeeaaar from...: the Ordinariates!

[JustAnAustralian]

10 hours ago, Danzo said:

A few years ago, the spanish unit was dissolved in our stake.   Many of marginally inactive people in the branch went less active. 

Several years ago when the church dissolved several Samoan speaking wards here, members of the wards sued the church http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FCAFC/2014/26.html?

Edited October 15, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[smac97]

5 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Several years ago when the church dissolved several Samoan speaking wards here, members of the wards sued the church http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FCAFC/2014/26.html?

Wow.

From paragraph 7:

Quote

In 2007 and 2008, the Church discontinued the Samoan-speaking wards. Until these wards were discontinued, the appellants were able to worship publicly as a group in their native Samoan language at services conducted by the Church in the Samoan-speaking wards. Following the discontinuance of the wards, the Church announced that the appellants were no longer allowed to use any language other than English in public worship and, in consequence, the appellants could no longer use the Samoan language publicly to pray, sing or testify in services of public worship conducted by the Church.

I was sort of skeptical that "the Church announced that the appellants were no longer allowed to use any language other than English in public worship."  The court made further findings in paragraphs 21-25:

Quote

21. Prior to the decision the applicants had the benefit of being able to publicly worship as a group in their native Samoan language at services conducted by the respondent in the wards operated by the respondent. Following the decision to cease the Samoan language wards, however the ability to continue to worship as a group in the Samoan language was removed in each ward. Announcements were made that the applicants were no longer allowed to use any language other than English, and could no longer use the Samoan language to pray, sing or testify.

22. Some of the applicants gave evidence about the announcements:

(a) Tareta Hakula Siakisini (BRG017/09) gave evidence that he was told at a Sunday service on the Sunday following the decisions that they were no longer allowed to use the Samoan language, and were not allowed to sing hymns or to testify in the Samoan language.

(b) Ann Siakisini gave evidence that she was told by Bishop Willoughby that they were no longer allowed to use the Samoan language in church services. She also gave evidence that she had been present when a member of the church was told not to do their testimonial in the Samoan language. Bishop Willoughby said that testimonials had to be given in English.

(c) Sisi Polelie (BRG019/09) gave evidence that she had been told she was not allowed to pray publicly in her own language by President Muillo.

(d) Pelepesite Ah See gave evidence that, two Sundays after the decision, it was announced that no-one was allowed to talk, or say prayers, at sacrament meetings in the Samoan language. In oral evidence, he said that Bishop Willoughby announced that they were not allowed to use the Samoan language in prayer, testimonials or hymns, and they must now use English.

(e) Marlene Ah See gave evidence that, when she last attended the Woodridge Ward, Mr Willoughby announced they could no longer use the Samoan language.

(f) Mr Laurensen gave evidence it was publicly announced after the decisions that no-one was allowed to talk or say prayers at sacrament meetings in the Samoan language.

23. Mr Willoughby, a bishop of the Church expressly accepted that he told his congregation that the Samoan language was no longer allowed to be used in services, and that all services were to be conducted in English. Mr Willoughby also accepted that the ward was to be English speaking and any Samoan conducting a service should use English or have the Samoan language translated into English. As he said in his affidavit, those who were challenged in using the English language would use their own language, but were to be invited “to give talks in sacrament meeting with the assistance of a translator”.

24. The respondent provided translation equipment to assist non-English speaking churchgoers to follow the services. I accept that was consistent with the claims of some of the applicants that the move away from the Samoan language affected the quality of their experience. Mr Smibert accepted the effect of the decisions was that all Church services had to be conducted in English.

25. It was clear from the cross-examination, however that the applicants (who were cross-examined) were still able to worship in their native Samoan language, although I accept that the worship there being referred to was private worship, as part of the public service conducted in English.

And paragraph 36:

Quote

36. In any event, the {Church} argued that the appellants’ right to freedom of religion (in article 5(d)(vii) of CERD) had not been nullified or impaired because:

(a) The [appellants’] freedom to freely practise their religion has not been the subject of any interference;

(b) The appellants are not prevented from attending any service offered by the Church;

(c) In reality, the applicants remain at liberty to manifest their beliefs:
(i) Many of the appellants are able to understand the English language;

(ii) Not all of the Church services are conducted in the English language;

(iii) Private prayer can be in the [appellants’] native Samoan language;

(iv) Singing can be in the Samoan language;

(v) The Church’s written materials and videos are largely available in the Samoan language;

(vi) Facilities to translate the Church services from the English language into the Samoan language when the Samoan language is not used are available for the use of those who prefer to hear the particular Church service in the Samoan language.

Paragraph 18 describes the Church's administrative processes that were used to discontinue the Samoan and Tongan units.  The process was to - surprise! - create a committee.  Here's what the committee recommended:

Quote

(iv) the sub-committee recommended that the Samoan language designation attaching to the above-referenced wards should be discontinued because, inter alia:

(i) the restructuring of the existing stakes and the creation of the eighth stake within the greater Brisbane Region would be easier to accomplish; and

(ii) many of the Samoan youth who attended these wards were unable to speak the Samoan language.

Overall an interesting read (though the formatting is off a bit - some of the paragraphs are out of order).

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Wow.

From paragraph 7:

I was sort of skeptical that "the Church announced that the appellants were no longer allowed to use any language other than English in public worship."  The court made further findings in paragraphs 21-25:

And paragraph 36:

Paragraph 18 describes the Church's administrative processes that were used to discontinue the Samoan and Tongan units.  The process was to - surprise! - create a committee.  Here's what the committee recommended:

Overall an interesting read (though the formatting is off a bit - some of the paragraphs are out of order).

Thanks,

-Smac

Very strange and rather fishy, and arguably racist.

We have a Samoan Ward and a few Spanish wards.

Everything is done in the respective languages, but yes often the parents will switch to an English ward for the kids.

We have a member of the bishopric who switched for his family, who has a hard time with English but he and his family are a great blessing 

Edited October 15, 2021 by mfbukowski

[JustAnAustralian]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

Overall an interesting read (though the formatting is off a bit - some of the paragraphs are out of order).

Yeah, austlii is good as a repository, but isn't great for formatting.

[The Nehor]

On 10/15/2021 at 2:18 AM, JustAnAustralian said:

Several years ago when the church dissolved several Samoan speaking wards here, members of the wards sued the church http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FCAFC/2014/26.html?

Not an isolated incident. A push to unify Tongan and English wards in another area I know well created a huge pushback from the Tongans and some counter-pushback the other way.

The problem was similar. Many Tongans would attend the English wards to help their kids and the Tongan wards continue even now and over half the talks and testimonies in them are given in English because the younger people don’t speak Tongan at all.

I expect there to be another push to integrate again soon.

[MiserereNobis]

If y’all would just do everything in Latin then there wouldn’t be a problem 😁

But seriously, a universal “dead” language mitigates so many of these issues. Everything’s the same everywhere. No “living” language is elevated above others. The meaning of the foundational text of all the translations doesn’t change as time goes by. 

[JustAnAustralian]

21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If y’all would just do everything in Latin then there wouldn’t be a problem

But then how would people know we were talking about them?

Edited October 19, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If y’all would just do everything in Latin then there wouldn’t be a problem 😁

But seriously, a universal “dead” language mitigates so many of these issues. Everything’s the same everywhere. No “living” language is elevated above others. The meaning of the foundational text of all the translations doesn’t change as time goes by. 

This is why we conduct all our highest ordinances in Hebrew and only record them in Nephite Reformed Egyptian.

[bOObOO]

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

If y’all would just do everything in Latin then there wouldn’t be a problem 😁

But seriously, a universal “dead” language mitigates so many of these issues. Everything’s the same everywhere. No “living” language is elevated above others. The meaning of the foundational text of all the translations doesn’t change as time goes by. 

Living is still better than dead.  Even a living Savior is better than a dead one, and when he was dead he was not dead for very long.  Living things can still do more telling.  Dead things are limited to what was done in the past.  So English is better than Latin.

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, bOObOO said:

Living is still better than dead.  Even a living Savior is better than a dead one, and when he was dead he was not dead for very long.  Living things can still do more telling.  Dead things are limited to what was done in the past.  So English is better than Latin.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 10/18/2021 at 8:17 PM, JustAnAustralian said:

But then how would people know we were talking about them?

OR what the Doctrine really says without being scholars? Explaining the theory behind transubstantiation to the average guy in the street might be problematic

Nah. Just leave it to the experts.