Rivers Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) This is a sobering article. What strikes me the most is the chart showing that LGBT teens have the highest suicidality and it continues to climb. I find this counterintuitive since LGBT people are more accepted and celebrated than ever before. It’s all very heartbreaking. https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/04/american-teens-sadness-depression-anxiety/629524/ Edited April 14, 2022 by Rivers 2
Popular Post SwedishLDS Posted April 14, 2022 Popular Post Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) In the end, the gospel is the solution to all the worlds problems. Abandoning the church and following your own path will not help in the long run. That said, I do sympathise and wish happiness on all. https://youtu.be/KS3iK9mr40M Sustainable Societies | D. Todd Christofferson | October 2020 Edited April 14, 2022 by SwedishLDS 10
bsjkki Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 9 hours ago, Rivers said: This is a sobering article. What strikes me the most is the chart showing that LGBT teens have the highest suicidality and it continues to climb. I find this counterintuitive since LGBT people are more accepted and celebrated than ever before. It’s all very heartbreaking. https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/04/american-teens-sadness-depression-anxiety/629524/ This is sobering and sad. Why would greater acceptance bring more depression? I do know my lgbtq friends do mostly struggle with depression. I had hoped leaving the church and living openly would help but it has not been a cure all for many I know. 3
rongo Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This is sobering and sad. Why would greater acceptance bring more depression? I do know my lgbtq friends do mostly struggle with depression. I had hoped leaving the church and living openly would help but it has not been a cure all for many I know. I think it's because it isn't lack of acceptance that causes the depression in many of these kids --- it's the Venn diagram overlap between gender/orientation confusion and mental health issues (not caused by bullying or lack of acceptance). For many of these kids (my experience bears out these stats that 1 out of 5 teens identify as non-straight --- which is eye-popping, and definitely out of whack with biology or historical numbers), the fact that they are pretending to be or trying to be something they actually aren't causes tons of mental stress and anguish. ETA: In my experience, kids who start experimenting with the gay identity spectrum (almost overwhelmingly girls, which is interesting. I wonder what the explanation for that is? Why not more boys?) are themselves depression/anxiety prone before that. There are also things like studies showing that the teen pregnancy rate for gay-identifying girls is off-the-charts higher than it is for straight girls. Which shows me that there is a lot more going on than "born this way, just being true to who I am --- oh, I'm also doing things with boys, so I must be somewhere else on the spectrum than all to one side." This confusion is certain to cause at least some mental stress and anguish. Edited April 14, 2022 by rongo 4
pogi Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 10 hours ago, Rivers said: What strikes me the most is the chart showing that LGBT teens have the highest suicidality and it continues to climb. I find this counterintuitive since LGBT people are more accepted and celebrated than ever before. It’s all very heartbreaking. It does seem counterintuitive, but I think that there might be some explanation in the fact that along with the increased social acceptance, there has also been increased social resistance. While many feel much safer to come out now because of this increased social acceptance, doing so often exposes them to never before experienced social rejection. These are children in the middle of a hotly contested and emotional battle that involves religion, law, and culture. They are the gay "issue". Who wants to be the center of an "issue" that is highly divisive in society? They may personalize that and view themselves as an "issue" that is causing contention in the world. Many may not want to feel like they are the source of contention and division leading them to isolate, etc. 2
SwedishLDS Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This is sobering and sad. Why would greater acceptance bring more depression? I do know my lgbtq friends do mostly struggle with depression. I had hoped leaving the church and living openly would help but it has not been a cure all for many I know. We live in an increasingly isolated society where people spend more time online than with their friends or family. People are not religious, dont go to church and, and local communities in general is waning. Its through the gospel and faith in christ people will find happiness. Through meaningful connections with those around them and service. Family relations, meaningful work, and physical exercise. All things people are increasingly not doing. Leaving the church is not the solution, its the opposite. Increasing ones faith, exercise, friends, and seeking therapy if necessary is. Dont let go of the iron rod. Edited April 14, 2022 by SwedishLDS 4
LoudmouthMormon Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 22 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This is sobering and sad. Why would greater acceptance bring more depression? I do know my lgbtq friends do mostly struggle with depression. I had hoped leaving the church and living openly would help but it has not been a cure all for many I know. It has to do with what 'greater acceptance' looks like. Every time I log on to TikTok, I see another detransitioning content creator, upset because they were told medically and surgically transitioning to their authentic gender would make them happy. And now they're lifelong medical patients, and less happy than they were before. @The Nehor tells us there are fewer and fewer trans activists who are accusing gays of homophobia when they refuse to date a trans man (or lesbians who don't want to date a trans woman). Social media tells me another story. Growing numbers of kids who bought into sexually-identifying-as-a-way-to-fix-all-your-problems, are finding they still have problems no matter how much pride they have, or how much time they spend making their sexual identity the core of their identity. I think the church with it's message of "for the love of pete, everyone deserves love" is a hands-down positive in this issue. 4
Rivers Posted April 14, 2022 Author Posted April 14, 2022 10 hours ago, SwedishLDS said: In the end, the gospel is the solution to all the worlds problems. Abandoning the church and following your own path will not help in the long run. That said, I do sympathise and wish happiness on all. https://youtu.be/KS3iK9mr40M Sustainable Societies | D. Todd Christofferson | October 2020 That’s a great talk. 1
pogi Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, rongo said: I think it's because it isn't lack of acceptance that causes the depression in many of these kids --- it's the Venn diagram overlap between gender/orientation confusion and mental health issues (not caused by bullying or lack of acceptance). Judging by how hotly this topic is debated on this board, it is no surprise that these kids feel emotional turmoil, hostility, and judgment in the real world. Everybody has an opinion that fits their social, religious, or political ideology, of this "issue" that is afflicting America and these poor kids are stuck in the middle of all of it. How could that not affect a child? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2072932/ 1 hour ago, rongo said: For many of these kids (my experience bears out these stats that 1 out of 5 teens identify as non-straight --- which is eye-popping, and definitely out of whack with biology or historical numbers), the fact that they are pretending to be or trying to be something they actually aren't causes tons of mental stress and anguish. These numbers are "out of whack with biology"? What does that even mean? Is there a gay gene that can help us identify the "fakers", or something else that I am not aware of? I think there is much research which suggests that most people are on a spectrum. So, if "straight' is interpreted as absolutely zero attraction to the same sex, then these numbers make pretty good sense to me. Historically it has been framed as either gay or straight, either you are only attracted to girls or you are only attracted to guys. Modern research suggests that is a false dichotomy and there is a spectrum that most fall on. I think "pretending" is also largely a fallacy. 1 hour ago, rongo said: ETA: In my experience, kids who start experimenting with the gay identity spectrum (almost overwhelmingly girls, which is interesting. I wonder what the explanation for that is? Why not more boys?) are themselves depression/anxiety prone before that. There are also things like studies showing that the teen pregnancy rate for gay-identifying girls is off-the-charts higher than it is for straight girls. Which shows me that there is a lot more going on than "born this way, just being true to who I am --- oh, I'm also doing things with boys, so I must be somewhere else on the spectrum than all to one side." This confusion is certain to cause at least some mental stress and anguish. Lots of speculation here. Edited April 14, 2022 by pogi 2
Popular Post rongo Posted April 14, 2022 Popular Post Posted April 14, 2022 32 minutes ago, pogi said: These numbers are "out of whack with biology"? What does that even mean? Is there a gay gene that can help us identify the "fakers", or something else that I am not aware of? 20% of modern teens are not gay or trans, but these are the numbers we have "identifying" as such. Roughly 1/5 of my students do, and have for several years (across different school systems and districts), so this tracks with my lived experience. This explosion over the last ten years is a social phenomenon, not a genuine biological one. And the phenomenon is wreaking emotional and mental havoc on a generation of kids. 5
CV75 Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 11 hours ago, Rivers said: This is a sobering article. What strikes me the most is the chart showing that LGBT teens have the highest suicidality and it continues to climb. I find this counterintuitive since LGBT people are more accepted and celebrated than ever before. It’s all very heartbreaking. https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/04/american-teens-sadness-depression-anxiety/629524/ I find growing popular/public acceptance and celebration to be heavy burdens in that they tend to engender an unrealistic self-image and expectations, and a good deal of stress through political attention and pressure. That is very tough for kids to navigate, and seems similar to the difficulties and struggles faced by child actors. 2
pogi Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, rongo said: 20% of modern teens are not gay or trans, Does that mean that 80% are LGBTQ? What numbers are you going off of? CFR please (the data cannot be based on self-identifying factors, as you reject those). Can you show me how one can collect such statistics without relying on self-identifying questionnaires? Again, did they find the gay gene or some other objective physical was to determine sexual orientation? 1 hour ago, rongo said: but these are the numbers we have "identifying" as such. Roughly 1/5 of my students do, and have for several years (across different school systems and districts), so this tracks with my lived experience. This explosion over the last ten years is a social phenomenon, not a genuine biological one. And the phenomenon is wreaking emotional and mental havoc on a generation of kids. The only way we can know how many people are LGBTQ is by asking them. It is subjective. You keep bringing up "biology", what do you mean by that? Again, is there an objective biological marker for gayness or something? What are you getting at here? Do you think it is possible that 20% of your students truly are on the spectrum that might cause them to identify as something other than purely "straight"? That doesn't seem like an unreasonable number to me. Edited April 14, 2022 by pogi 1
Calm Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 Quote the most recent data on that suggests that about 14 percent of women and about 10 percent of men report some degree of same-sex attraction. And in both women and men, the vast majority of those individuals describe themselves as mostly, but not completely, heterosexual. So the largest group of individuals walking around with same sex attractions are individuals who you would never know had same-sex attractions. They identify as heterosexual. They think they're mainly heterosexual, but they're, like, hetero-flexible. So they're the majority of individuals with same-sex attractions, and yet, historically, they've been completely invisible. We only now are starting to see what a big group they are. And they're not just a big group in the U.S. You find the same thing if you look at Great Britain, France, the Netherlands. The hetero-flexibles are like this huge looming population. https://www.ttbook.org/interview/new-science-sexual-fluidity 2
rongo Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 4 minutes ago, pogi said: What numbers are you going off of? CFR please. Here are several: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/02/24/gen-z-lgbt/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvqw8d/how-2018-became-the-year-20gayteen https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/survey-20-percent-millennials-identify-lgbtq-n740791 https://www.inquirer.com/health/gay-lesbian-teenagers-doubled-suicide-rates-20200210.html 6 minutes ago, pogi said: The only way we can know how many people are LGBTQ is by asking them. It is subjective. Or by them openly telling people about it, openly identifying with the gay groups at school, etc. 7 minutes ago, pogi said: You keep bringing up "biology", what do you mean by that? Again, is there an objective biological marker for gayness or something? What are you getting at here? What I mean is that they aren't really "on the spectrum;" they are glomming onto this social trend for various reasons. Many decide they aren't later, or that they are somewhere else "on the spectrum." I've had "out" students get pregnant. Most of these students, in my observation, are mimicking media and social media trends, or are trying to fit in with an instant friend group. 9 minutes ago, pogi said: Do you think it is possible that 20% of your students truly are on the spectrum that might cause them to identify as something other than purely "straight"? That doesn't seem like an unreasonable number to me. What does "truly" mean? That they identify: sure. That they really are? No, nowhere close to 1 out of 5 people in reality. 4
Popular Post MustardSeed Posted April 14, 2022 Popular Post Posted April 14, 2022 I took an "Are You Gay" "quiz" online last month. Let me be clear - I like MEN. I find women very beautiful but I've never felt a pull to be emotionally intimate with a woman ever. Never mind sexual intimacy, which for me follows emotional intimacy and only with men. The so called quiz told me I am 30% bisexual. Its nonsense - and I know that - but how in the world would a pre teen know that? 5
rongo Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 1 minute ago, MustardSeed said: I took an "Are You Gay" "quiz" online last month. Let me be clear - I like MEN. I find women very beautiful but I've never felt a pull to be emotionally intimate with a woman ever. Never mind sexual intimacy, which for me follows emotional intimacy and only with men. The so called quiz told me I am 30% bisexual. Its nonsense - and I know that - but how in the world would a pre teen know that? No, no, you've got it all wrong. How do you know you aren't "truly on the spectrum?" 1
Kenngo1969 Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 12 hours ago, SwedishLDS said: ... https://youtu.be/KS3iK9mr40M Sustainable Societies | D. Todd Christofferson | October 2020 2 hours ago, Rivers said: That’s a great talk. Yes, it is.☺
pogi Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: I took an "Are You Gay" "quiz" online last month. Let me be clear - I like MEN. I find women very beautiful but I've never felt a pull to be emotionally intimate with a woman ever. Never mind sexual intimacy, which for me follows emotional intimacy and only with men. The so called quiz told me I am 30% bisexual. Its nonsense - and I know that - but how in the world would a pre teen know that? I took an online quiz once, it told me I was mostly an alien lizard I agree it is nonsense. There is no objective measure that an online quiz could use to determine what is entirely subjective. Edited April 14, 2022 by pogi
pogi Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 1 hour ago, rongo said: Here are several: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/02/24/gen-z-lgbt/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvqw8d/how-2018-became-the-year-20gayteen https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/survey-20-percent-millennials-identify-lgbtq-n740791 https://www.inquirer.com/health/gay-lesbian-teenagers-doubled-suicide-rates-20200210.html The CFR was for your claim that 20% are not LGBTQ. If the percent is "not" 20, what is the percentage and how would you know without relying on self-identifying questions? 1 hour ago, rongo said: What I mean is that they aren't really "on the spectrum;" they are glomming onto this social trend for various reasons. Many decide they aren't later, or that they are somewhere else "on the spectrum." I've had "out" students get pregnant. Most of these students, in my observation, are mimicking media and social media trends, or are trying to fit in with an instant friend group. "Most of the students" in your observation are faking it? Do you really know "most of the students"? Are they revealing to you that they are faking it? If not, how do you know? You seem to be approaching this from the old-school black and white mentality of gay or straight, and that sexual orientation is rigid and never changes throughout life. That just doesn't seem to be the case. https://vaden.stanford.edu/medical-services/lgbtqia-health/sexual-fluidity#:~:text=For some people%2C sexual orientation,fluid and change over time. 1 hour ago, rongo said: What does "truly" mean? That they identify: sure. That they really are? No, nowhere close to 1 out of 5 people in reality. What does "in reality" mean? This is an entirely subjective measurement and can only be determined by the individual. Once again you insinuate that there is some objective biological measure or something. It doesn't exist.
Calm Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 Rongo, if someone fantasizes about the opposite sex while ummm…enjoying themselves, can they be homosexual? If a man engages in sex with another man by choice, are they heterosexual? If a woman gets pregnant through sex, can she be a lesbian?
SeekingUnderstanding Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 16 hours ago, Rivers said: This is a sobering article. What strikes me the most is the chart showing that LGBT teens have the highest suicidality and it continues to climb. I find this counterintuitive since LGBT people are more accepted and celebrated than ever before. It’s all very heartbreaking. https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/04/american-teens-sadness-depression-anxiety/629524/ I’m not sure I understand. Since 2015 overall depression is up 40% and LGBT is up 25 percent. So they are increasing at a slower rate?
rongo Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Calm said: Rongo, if someone fantasizes about the opposite sex while ummm…enjoying themselves, can they be homosexual? If a self-identifying gay man fantasizes about women while masturbating? Yes, I would say his claim to being gay is suspect. Why wouldn't he fantasize about men? If fantasizing about both men and women float his boat, then he could choose to only foster/nurture the attraction to women. It wouldn't be an imperative of nature he was born with and can't do anything about. 2 hours ago, Calm said: If a man engages in sex with another man by choice, are they heterosexual? No, that sounds like textbook homosexual to me. 2 hours ago, Calm said: If a woman gets pregnant through sex, can she be a lesbian? Not any more. At minimum, she is "bi." This happened to a student of mine. Had a girlfriend, holding hands and kissing in the hall. Confessed to being pregnant in her baptismal interview (the district leader had some heavy lifting in that interview). She is a mother of three today, and doesn't identify as gay at all. I think this is what will happen with the lion's share of those caught in the wave of "identifying as gay" right now. Most aren't, really, and they will tire of the fad (or will abandon the fad as it peters out). --- I know that the reaction scrambles to, "Well, people can be bi," or, "it's a spectrum. No two people's sexuality is the same." Sure, but if one happens to be truly "bi" (actually and equally attracted to both) and is a striving Saint, then it is certainly possible to successfully repress the "forbidden" attraction and only foster/nurture the "accepted" attraction. I know another mother of three (not the same one) who confessed to me that she is attracted to women, too. It isn't part of her life; her husband and three children are. Yes, "bi" exists, but I think it's a lot less prevalent than people claim. 1
carbon dioxide Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 8 hours ago, bsjkki said: This is sobering and sad. Why would greater acceptance bring more depression? I do know my lgbtq friends do mostly struggle with depression. I had hoped leaving the church and living openly would help but it has not been a cure all for many I know. Social acceptance really has little to do with dealing with depression. Many famous people have all the money and acceptance in the world but they deal with depression and some kill themselves. Depression can be caused by many things including chemical issues on the brain. Leaving the church might make some people happier but for most people, the cause of their problems is not the church but something else. That does not change by turning in a resignation letter. 2
MustardSeed Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 1 hour ago, rongo said: If a self-identifying gay man fantasizes about women while masturbating? Yes, I would say his claim to being gay is suspect. Anecdotally I strongly disagree with this concept. FWIW.
Fether Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 19 hours ago, Rivers said: I find this counterintuitive since LGBT people are more accepted and celebrated than ever before. I would suggest this may not be true. I think the minority celebrating LGBTQ is just louder than the majority that doesn’t. I may be wrong though. I just know LGBTQ students at my local high school are still bullied a lot. maybe they are bullied just as much as everyone else, but they just feel they are picked out of the crowd because of their LGBTQ status?
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