Fether Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 (edited) I've been somewhat interested in the idea of seeing Christ in vision and curious as to why we don't read or hear much about it any more. Before I get to my questions, I want to preface them with references and quotes. John 14:21 - He that hath my commandments, and akeepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be bloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will cmanifest myself to him. D+C 76:116-117 - 116 Neither is man acapable to make them known, for they are only to be bseen and cunderstood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who dlove him, and purify themselves before him; 117 To whom he grants this privilege of aseeing and knowing for themselves; D+C 84:221-22 - 23 And without the ordinances thereof, and the aauthority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is bnot manifest unto men in the flesh; 22 For without this no aman can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. Now this aMoses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to bsanctify his people that they might cbehold the face of God; D+C 88:68 - Therefore, asanctify yourselves that your bminds become csingle to God, and the days will come that you shall dsee him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will. D+C 93:1 - Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who aforsaketh his bsins and cometh unto me, and ccalleth on my name, and dobeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall esee my fface and gknow that I am; "D+C 97:15-16 - 15 And if my people build it not according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, I will not accept it at their hands. 16 But if my people do build it according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, even my servant Joseph and his counselors, then I will accept it at the hands of my people." D+C 130:3 - The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal bappearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son cdwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false. “‘Now what is the other comforter?’ Joseph asked. ‘It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. …’”(HC 3:381.) "<it> is necessary that you receive a testimony from Heaven for yourselves, so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon. And that you have seen the face of God:40 that is more than the testimony of an Angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God. This testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out. although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will, therefore, see the necessity of getting this testimony from Heaven. Never cease striving until you have seen God, face to face. Strengthen your faith, cast off your doubts, your sins and all your unbelief and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid his hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us. God is the same. If the Saviour in former days laid his hands on his deciples. Why not in the latter Days." - Oliver Cowdery Blessings and minutes (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/minutes-and-blessings-21-february-1835/7) QUESTIONS: - Can we expect to see God in mortality if we are living righteously and seeking to see him? - If not, how do we account for these scriptures above that suggest that we can? -If so, why do we hear so little of people seeing Christ? - Why do the vasy majority of apostles and prophets since Joseph Smith lack a visual witness of Christ (I know Pres Brigham Young, Grant, McKay, Elder Oaks and Callister have all said at some point that neither they, nor anyone they know has seen Christ) - Are Oliver Cowdery's words true? Or was it just him making a bold inference? - Why was the spoken of more in Joseph Smith’s time and in scripture than in modern day? - Should a personal experience of the second comforter be sought after by the saints? - If so, why is it not a bigger conversation? In my studies, I found it interesting that there seemed to be a huge lack of easy to reach resources on "seeing Christ" or "The Second Comforter". Edited March 28, 2022 by Fether
DispensatorMysteriorum Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 Quote (I know Pres Brigham Young, Grant, McKay, Elder Oaks and Callister have all said at some point that neither they, nor anyone they know has seen Christ) CFR 1
JLHPROF Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, Fether said: I've been somewhat interested in the idea of seeing Christ in vision and curious as to why we don't read or hear much about it any more. Before I get to my questions, I want to preface them with references and quotes. QUESTIONS: - Can we expect to see God in mortality if we are living righteously and seeking to see him? Yes. Joseph taught that all who are sufficiently pure will see him in the solemn assembly. However just seeing the Savior and the Second Comforter aren't synonymous. - If not, how do we account for these scriptures above that suggest that we can? We can. Scripture is true -If so, why do we hear so little of people seeing Christ? If it's truly someone's calling and election then it's deeply personal and not for public consumption. It would literally be pearls before swine otherwise. - Why do the vast majority of apostles and prophets since Joseph Smith lack a visual witness of Christ I'm not convinced that's true. But again, unless the visitation affects the public then it's just for them. For example Lorenzo Snow met the Lord in the temple. An interesting link: http://thiscountsashometeaching.blogspot.com/2018/02/have-lds-prophets-seen-jesus-christ-12.html?m=1 - Are Oliver Cowdery's words true? Or was it just him making a bold inference? They're true. - Should a personal experience of the second comforter be sought after by the saints? Yes. That's scriptural. However I think too many (Snufferites/Remnants esp) don't know the difference between the second comforter and dreams/visions. Many receive visions and dreams. Not many have Christ's physical presence and his hands laid upon them. - If so, why is it not a bigger conversation? In my studies, I found it interesting that there seemed to be a huge lack of easy to reach resources on "seeing Christ" or "The Second Comforter". That's like asking why the signs, tokens, veil ceremony, etc aren't written about more. The Second Comforter is a temple related experience and receiving it is the sacred work of a lifetime. 2
Metis_LDS Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 Do not forget the Book of Mormon. Book of Ether the brother of Jared. 1
Metis_LDS Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 26 minutes ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said: CFR I bow before the coolness of your screen name. Envy knows no limits! 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 45 minutes ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said: CFR Elder Oaks: President McKay: https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/individuals-claim-to-seen-christ/ Quote On May 5, 1961, Mr. John Cook, a newspaper feature writer, was granted an interview with President McKay. Towards the close of the interview he said that he hoped the President wouldn’t mind if he asked a question, and said that the President wouldn’t need to answer the question if he felt that he shouldn’t, but for his own information, not for publication, he would like to know if President McKay had ever seen the Savior. President McKay answered that he had not, but that he had heard his voice, many times, and that he had felt his presence and his influence. He then told about Peter (saying that he was his favorite among the apostles, even more so than Paul with all his education and learning—that Peter was a rough, simple man, but sincere) and he told how Peter had spoken of being partakers of the divine spirit, of a divine nature, and explained what he felt that to mean. Then he told how some evidences were stronger even than that of sight, and recalled the occasion when the Savior appeared to his disciples and told Thomas who had doubted, “Reach hither thy finger and behold my hands: and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless but believing.” And then President McKay said that he liked to believe Thomas did not actually look up, but knelt at the Savior’s feet and said unto him, “My Lord and my God.” And then President McKay repeated the words of the Master, “Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” President McKay then smiled and said, “That is quite a testimony I have given you. I do not know when I have given this before.” Top google results. 4
Fether Posted March 28, 2022 Author Posted March 28, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said: CFR Just adding to seeking understanding’s comment “I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.” - Heber J Grant (https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_prophets/Apostles_as_personal_witnesses_of_Christ#cite_note-52) (though on another occasion he did say that he did know some that did see the savior Edited March 28, 2022 by Fether
SeekingUnderstanding Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 Elder McConkie on priesthood revelation: Quote It was during this prayer that the revelation came. The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon us all; we felt something akin to what happened on the day of Pentecost and at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. From the midst of eternity, the voice of God, conveyed by the power of the Spirit, spoke to his prophet. . . . And we all heard the same voice, received the same message, and became personal witnesses that the word received was the mind and will and voice of the Lord. . . . On this occasion, because of the importuning and the faith, and because the hour and the time had arrived, the Lord in his providences poured out the Holy Ghost upon the First Presidency and the Twelve in a miraculous and marvelous manner, beyond anything that any then present had ever experienced. [20] In an attempt to stifle speculation, Elder McConkie also explained what did not happen: “The Lord could have sent messengers from the other side to deliver it, but he did not. He gave the revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost. . . . And maybe some . . . would like to believe that the Lord himself was there, or that the Prophet Joseph Smith came to deliver the revelation. . . . Well, these things did not happen. The stories that go around to the contrary are not factual or realistic or true.” [21] https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-14-no-3-2013/revelation-priesthood-thirty-five-years-later If he had seen Christ in a personal visitation, I’d have a tough time understanding “beyond anything that any then present has ever experienced”
Fether Posted March 28, 2022 Author Posted March 28, 2022 53 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: However I think too many (Snufferites/Remnants esp) don't know the difference between the second comforter and dreams/visions. Many receive visions and dreams. Not many have Christ's physical presence and his hands laid upon them. What would be the difference. Admittedly, it was me curiously following these movements that lead to my interest in this. What insight can you share or articles can you point me to?
CV75 Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Fether said: I've been somewhat interested in the idea of seeing Christ in vision and curious as to why we don't read or hear much about it any more. Before I get to my questions, I want to preface them with references and quotes. John 14:21 - He that hath my commandments, and akeepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be bloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will cmanifest myself to him. D+C 76:116-117 - 116 Neither is man acapable to make them known, for they are only to be bseen and cunderstood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who dlove him, and purify themselves before him; 117 To whom he grants this privilege of aseeing and knowing for themselves; D+C 84:221-22 - 23 And without the ordinances thereof, and the aauthority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is bnot manifest unto men in the flesh; 22 For without this no aman can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. Now this aMoses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to bsanctify his people that they might cbehold the face of God; D+C 88:68 - Therefore, asanctify yourselves that your bminds become csingle to God, and the days will come that you shall dsee him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will. D+C 93:1 - Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who aforsaketh his bsins and cometh unto me, and ccalleth on my name, and dobeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall esee my fface and gknow that I am; "D+C 97:15-16 - 15 And if my people build it not according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, I will not accept it at their hands. 16 But if my people do build it according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, even my servant Joseph and his counselors, then I will accept it at the hands of my people." D+C 130:3 - The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal bappearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son cdwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false. “‘Now what is the other comforter?’ Joseph asked. ‘It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. …’”(HC 3:381.) "<it> is necessary that you receive a testimony from Heaven for yourselves, so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon. And that you have seen the face of God:40 that is more than the testimony of an Angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God. This testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out. although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will, therefore, see the necessity of getting this testimony from Heaven. Never cease striving until you have seen God, face to face. Strengthen your faith, cast off your doubts, your sins and all your unbelief and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid his hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us. God is the same. If the Saviour in former days laid his hands on his deciples. Why not in the latter Days." - Oliver Cowdery Blessings and minutes (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/minutes-and-blessings-21-february-1835/7) QUESTIONS: - Can we expect to see God in mortality if we are living righteously and seeking to see him? - If not, how do we account for these scriptures above that suggest that we can? -If so, why do we hear so little of people seeing Christ? - Why do the vasy majority of apostles and prophets since Joseph Smith lack a visual witness of Christ (I know Pres Brigham Young, Grant, McKay, Elder Oaks and Callister have all said at some point that neither they, nor anyone they know has seen Christ) - Are Oliver Cowdery's words true? Or was it just him making a bold inference? - Why was the spoken of more in Joseph Smith’s time and in scripture than in modern day? - Should a personal experience of the second comforter be sought after by the saints? - If so, why is it not a bigger conversation? In my studies, I found it interesting that there seemed to be a huge lack of easy to reach resources on "seeing Christ" or "The Second Comforter". I answered some of the first question which I think answer the rest: Q1 “Expectation” takes on new meanings as someone becomes more sanctified, but essentially, “yes”. Q3 Human communication changes with each generation, and the Spirit communicates accordingly. As the generations become more wicked, those with ears to hear will hear just as those who are prompted to speak will speak. Q4 This may be a function of expectation and what it means to them. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 14 minutes ago, Fether said: What would be the difference. Admittedly, it was me curiously following these movements that lead to my interest in this. What insight can you share or articles can you point me to? Yeah, I figured that's where this came from. They don't believe any ordinances are needed despite your D&C 84 quote. They're wrong. Joseph explains clearly in my opinion: https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/CallingElectionJS.htm 1. He connects the sealing power (priesthood keys) with calling and election. "Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him (who remain) from the least to the greatest. How is this to be done? It is to be done by this sealing power, and the other Comforter spoken of, which will be manifest by revelation." "The more sure word of prophecy means a man's knowing that he is sealed up into eternal life by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the holy priesthood." 2. There are specific conditions in our lives that need to be met first. "After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands),which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter." Ordinances, sacrifice, even perhaps an Abrahamic test, and totally proven. (See the 6th Lecture on Faith). I don't know many people at this level in their lives - living by every word, thoroughly proven etc. 3. Those who receive this are changed. "the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God;" I don't see these Remnant people who claim such things having this blessing. 4. Difference between seeing and calling and election. "Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure, that they had part with Christ, and were joint heirs with Him." "3rd key: It is one thing to be on the mount and hear the excellent voice. &c., &c., and another to hear the voice declare to you, You have a part and lot in that kingdom." "The devil knows many signs but does not know the sign of the Son of Man, or Jesus. No one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something, and this can only be in the Holiest of Holies." 1
Fether Posted March 28, 2022 Author Posted March 28, 2022 29 minutes ago, CV75 said: Q3 Human communication changes with each generation, and the Spirit communicates accordingly. As the generations become more wicked, those with ears to hear will hear just as those who are prompted to speak will speak. The “All In” podcast by LDSLiving had an interview with David A Bednar and he pointed out that in Africa, people are always having visions of missionaries bringing them the gospel. But such experience are nearly non-existent outside of Africa. I wonder if it is just secular thinking intruding our lives and lessening our expectations for such experiences. 3
Fether Posted March 28, 2022 Author Posted March 28, 2022 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Yeah, I figured that's where this came from Just to clarify, I’ve listened to a lot of the content on YouTube that some of them put out. I find fatal flaws in a lot of what they say. But some thing they bring up are at least interesting. This is just one of the concepts that I was curious about looking into. 3
Metis_LDS Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, Fether said: But such experience are nearly non-existent outside of Africa. 55 years ago when I was a boy in French Catholic Quebec Canada, I remember adults not in our family said they had visions but I cannot now recall what they were about.
strappinglad Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 Such dreams and visions were common whenever the gospel is first presented in a land. Note the early days in NY and Nauvoo etc. It was also seen in Central and South America. There is a downside to all these visions as some believe they have a right to lead others. 3
CV75 Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 4 hours ago, Fether said: The “All In” podcast by LDSLiving had an interview with David A Bednar and he pointed out that in Africa, people are always having visions of missionaries bringing them the gospel. But such experience are nearly non-existent outside of Africa. I wonder if it is just secular thinking intruding our lives and lessening our expectations for such experiences. Did Elder Bednar offer an explanation of why that is? I believe secularization contributes to wickedness, while spiritual approaches to study, prayer and service foster faith, hope and charity. The Lord will not withhold anything from the faithful, though they remain hidden from the world.
Kevin Christensen Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 For far more than you might think, see the Greg Smith essay in Interpreter 7 (2013), "Passing up the Heavenly Gift" Part 1. FWIW, Kevin Christensen Visiting Family in Utah 1
Fether Posted March 28, 2022 Author Posted March 28, 2022 3 hours ago, CV75 said: Did Elder Bednar offer an explanation of why that is? I believe secularization contributes to wickedness, while spiritual approaches to study, prayer and service foster faith, hope and charity. The Lord will not withhold anything from the faithful, though they remain hidden from the world. I can’t recall. I imagine it is just that the African people are more willing to accept such experiences and divine. Similar to how JSjr may have been chosen because of his willingness to believe in divine manifestations evident by his belief in treasure hunting, magic stones, and divining rods.
Popular Post pogi Posted March 28, 2022 Popular Post Posted March 28, 2022 9 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Elder Oaks: President McKay: https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/individuals-claim-to-seen-christ/ My brother in-law, who left the church, was hiking up little cottonwood canyon around 4 years ago with his family (wife and 2 young girls - all still active). They ran into President Nelson hiking (In his 90's mind you!) with a younger man they thought was a body guard. President Nelson stopped them and commented on what a beautiful family they were and asked if he could take their picture. I have seen the pictures with him to verify the encounter. My B-I-L actually had the nerve to ask him directly if he has ever seen Christ. He answered, "no, we are not witnesses to Him in that way." My active S-I-L verified the story. This testimony by Elder Oaks further verifies the account. 5
mfbukowski Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fether said: I can’t recall. I imagine it is just that the African people are more willing to accept such experiences and divine. Similar to how JSjr may have been chosen because of his willingness to believe in divine manifestations evident by his belief in treasure hunting, magic stones, and divining rods. I strongly believe you are right. The more one is ready for such manifestations, the more one receives them. And don't talk to me about confirmation bias, been there, done that. https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality?language=en Remember also that the placebo effect is real, if you believe something, it can happen Edited March 28, 2022 by mfbukowski
bluebell Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Fether said: The “All In” podcast by LDSLiving had an interview with David A Bednar and he pointed out that in Africa, people are always having visions of missionaries bringing them the gospel. But such experience are nearly non-existent outside of Africa. I wonder if it is just secular thinking intruding our lives and lessening our expectations for such experiences. If I'm right about where this comes from, Elder Bednar said dreams, not vision. He said that in Africa he often heard experiences of someone telling a missionary that they saw them coming in a dream and knew they needed to listen to their message, but that not many missionaries in LA probably have that same experience. His point was that we all receive the spirit in different ways and that our culture and upbringing can impact that. IIRC, he said that he doesn't personally receive much revelation through dreams. He was teaching the CES workers that they have to be careful not to tell someone how the spirit will manifest itself in their life, or how it won't. How the spirit manifests itself in the CES teacher's life might be completely different than how it does in their students' lives. Edited March 28, 2022 by bluebell 2
bluebell Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 4 hours ago, CV75 said: Did Elder Bednar offer an explanation of why that is? I believe secularization contributes to wickedness, while spiritual approaches to study, prayer and service foster faith, hope and charity. The Lord will not withhold anything from the faithful, though they remain hidden from the world. He spoke about it in his Evening with a General Authority fireside that he did for CES workers in February of 2020. Just google that and you'll find the presentation. It's one of the best that I've seen and I've watched it multiple times. It's on receiving revelation. 1
The Nehor Posted March 29, 2022 Posted March 29, 2022 Talking about the Second Comforter or giving presentations about it or having lots of talks about it is very unlikely to help anyone actually achieve it. An obsession with it often leads to those offshoot cults and “study groups” that the Church has problems with.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 29, 2022 Posted March 29, 2022 18 hours ago, Fether said: I've been somewhat interested in the idea of seeing Christ in vision and curious as to why we don't read or hear much about it any more. Before I get to my questions, I want to preface them with references and quotes. ..................... for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will..................... “‘Now what is the other comforter?’ Joseph asked. ‘It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. …’”(HC 3:381.)............................. .................... - Can we expect to see God in mortality if we are living righteously and seeking to see him? - If not, how do we account for these scriptures above that suggest that we can? -If so, why do we hear so little of people seeing Christ? - Why do the vasy majority of apostles and prophets since Joseph Smith lack a visual witness of Christ (I know Pres Brigham Young, Grant, McKay, Elder Oaks and Callister have all said at some point that neither they, nor anyone they know has seen Christ) - Are Oliver Cowdery's words true? Or was it just him making a bold inference? - Why was the spoken of more in Joseph Smith’s time and in scripture than in modern day? - Should a personal experience of the second comforter be sought after by the saints? - If so, why is it not a bigger conversation? In my studies, I found it interesting that there seemed to be a huge lack of easy to reach resources on "seeing Christ" or "The Second Comforter". Part of the problem is terminology: The Second Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Another significant problem here is seeking for the mysteries before one has mastered the basics -- meat before milk. The same problem the rabbis have long noted among those seeking the mysteries. Another problem is the attributing to Joseph Smith statements that he did not make, the History of the Church edited by B. H. Roberts being a prime example. Also, "Elder Oaks" is President Oaks.
SwedishLDS Posted March 29, 2022 Posted March 29, 2022 First time I have read of the second comforter, but honestly it just doesn’t seem relevant to me. No impact on my faith or what I should do whatsoever. I imagine thats why. As for miracles and visions, society is harsh on believers and believers in miracles. That said, I have plenty of miracles through priesthood blessings and faith.
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