Seeing Christ / Experiencing the Second Comforter

[Avatar4321]

Elder cook mentioned in conference a few years back that the Lord taught them in person from time to time. Can’t find the quote at the moment.

i remember hearing Him say it and surprised that so little was made of it. It was like no one noticed it until I pointed it out 

(I’m about 90% sure it was Elder Cook. I could be wrong thought it’s been a while since I read it)

[Fether]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Second Comforter is the Holy Spirit

“The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ“ (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/comforter?lang=eng)

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Also, "Elder Oaks" is President Oaks.

Does the present title carry when you are speaking about him when he wasn’t president Oaks?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Fether

[CV75]

I could explain all of this but I am under obligation not to discuss it. Oops, just lost it.

[pogi]

On 3/28/2022 at 8:16 AM, Fether said:

The “All In” podcast by LDSLiving had an interview with David A Bednar and he pointed out that in Africa, people are always having visions of missionaries bringing them the gospel. But such experience are nearly non-existent outside of Africa. I wonder if it is just secular thinking intruding our lives and lessening our expectations for such experiences.

It is not just in Africa.  I served in the Philippines and dreams and visions were commonly reported by many of the people I taught.  I think you are right about "expectations".  In the Philippines the culture there is accustomed to believing in the miraculous.  Like many parts of Africa, their Christian culture is deeply intertwined with traditional folklore.  Radical visions, dreams, miraculous healings by witch doctors, curses, magical potions, etc. are commonplace.  After a signal 5 hurricane, my companion and I were involved full-time in service in cleaning up from the disaster.  On one property, we were clearing out fallen trees and debris.  One tree was broken in half, so we chopped the rest down from the root to clear it.  The property owner was irate and came out yelling and cursing at us.  We thought we were there giving him service, but little did we know that there was a "duende" living in that tree stump and the man was convinced that he will be cursed for having it removed from his property.  He was genuinely scared and feared for his future.  I felt terrible.  That experience really opened my eyes to how real all of this is to them.  It is not just make believe to them.  

A common refrain we heard as we taught the gospel was the phrase "show me a sign".   We heard that more often than not. "If the Lord shows me a sign, I will believe".  They didn't want to do the work of studying and planting the seed, testing, researching, praying and generally paying the price of faith.  They were under the impression that if God wanted them to be converted he would just show them a sign.  So many scriptures came to mind about sign-seekers/seeking.  That was just part of their worldview though.  Often, major life changes and decisions were accompanied by claims of miraculous signs.  It was sign of divine favor and almost a status symbol.

Does that cultural upbringing influence the experience of miracles in our lives.  I think so.  I think it is a double edged sword though.  I think that highly superstitious cultures are more open and thus prone to genuine spiritual experiences with visions, dreams, and genuine faith healings etc. but I think it also makes them more susceptible and prone to deception along with all the pitfalls of sign seeking culture.  It was a delicate balance for sure when some of the more questionable miraculous signs and miracles led people to want to be baptized into our church.  I had sever road to Damascus type experiences told to me where Jesus literally stopped them in their way and told them to get baptized.  I heard countless other miraculous visions and dreams that led to conversion in our church.   Most of them made me feel uncomfortable in hearing the retelling of their accounts.  Others I have no doubt were genuine spiritual experiences.  Despite countless highly miraculous experiences leading to conversion, with some of the highest baptizing rates in the world, retention rates in the Philippines are some of the worst in the world.  That fact leads me to question the genuine nature of most of these experiences.  There is no foundation to sustain them long-term when signs are commonplace and lead people from one place one day, and to another place the next.  They are without root.  Sustaining faith takes work.  It takes carful labor and patient care to nourish a seed to root and bring fruit. 

I guess what I am saying is that, yes, "expectations" are a big part of it.  I think being open to them is necessary to experience them, but it may also make us more vulnerable to self-deception.   I think there is a legitimate and valid reason that we have been warned against being sign-seekers. 

[Navidad]

Just a thought . . . I do not think the NT verse in John 14:21 (don't forget its connection to verse 22) is referring to a literal manifestation due to the structure and unique usage of the Greek verb there. Judas replies to Christ with a different usage of the same verb in an infinitive use in verse 22 that refers to a literal manifestation which indicates he misunderstood Christ and the conversation goes on. I think Christ was talking about a metaphorical type use of the term. Kind of if I said "you are showing your true colors," or "show me what you got," or "he didn't show her much affection." FWIW. Thanks.

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Just a thought . . . I do not think the NT verse in John 14:21 (don't forget its connection to verse 22) is referring to a literal manifestation due to the structure and unique usage of the Greek verb there. Judas replies to Christ with a different usage of the same verb in an infinitive use in verse 22 that refers to a literal manifestation which indicates he misunderstood Christ and the conversation goes on. I think Christ was talking about a metaphorical type use of the term. Kind of if I said "you are showing your true colors," or "show me what you got," or "he didn't show her much affection." FWIW. Thanks.

And yet 6 chapters later we have this:

Quote

 

John 20:19

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

“The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ“ (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/comforter?lang=eng)

The source-opinion you provide is an obvious misinterpretation.  In John 14:16, the "Second Comforter" (Greek αλλον παρακλητον = Aramaic Peshitta  אחרנא פרקלתא ‘aḥernʼa paraqletʼa ) is the Holy Ghost, who is often called the “Paraclete” in non-Mormon circles.  But what is a paraclete?  The phrase in Greek ('allon parakleton) is translated in various ways, and it can be confusing:  Jesus himself says in John 14:16 "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter" (KJV); "Segond Consolateur" (German Luther Bible revised); "another Counselor" (RSV, NIV); "another Advocate" (JB, NRSV, SV); "another Helper" (TEV); "another to be your Advocate" (NEB, REB); "another Paraclete" (NAB, see note: "Jesus is the first Paraclete" in I John 2:1).  In other words, Jesus is the "first counselor," and the Holy Spirit is the "second counselor."

When does Jesus send the Second Comforter (Holy Spirit)?  After Jesus leaves, after his Forty-Day ministry as Resurrected Lord, he sends the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2).  That is and always has been the Second Comforter.

5 hours ago, Fether said:

Does the present title carry when you are speaking about him when he wasn’t president Oaks?

You need to cite date and place when he said something, and then quote that something.

[Stargazer]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:16 PM, Fether said:

The “All In” podcast by LDSLiving had an interview with David A Bednar and he pointed out that in Africa, people are always having visions of missionaries bringing them the gospel. But such experience are nearly non-existent outside of Africa. I wonder if it is just secular thinking intruding our lives and lessening our expectations for such experiences.

Here's an experience that took place in Germany sometime in the 1960s (probably). I was acquainted with this sister in Wuppertal. She was housebound at the time due to ill health, but was a faithful member of the church. She was a young woman during WW1, and engaged to a young officer. Her fiancee was killed in action (would have been around 1917), and she never married, but worked as a nurse for the rest of her life. She was a faithful member of the Lutheran faith. One day the doorbell buzzed, and since no-one was expected, her caregiver was going to ignore the unexpected visitor, when this sister perked up. She said "There's an angel at my door!" She hurried downstairs herself and there were two missionaries standing there. She invited them up, and her baptism followed in due course. What she told me was that the moment she heard the door buzzer, she saw the missionaries at her door in vision as if they were angels. 

She liked to give the missionaries whom she met nicknames from the scriptures. The missionary who baptized her was "Michael the Archangel". I got awarded "Moroni" (Captain Moroni from the book of Alma).

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The source-opinion you provide is an obvious misinterpretation.  In John 14:16, the "Second Comforter" (Greek αλλον παρακλητον = Aramaic Peshitta  אחרנא פרקלתא ‘aḥernʼa paraqletʼa ) is the Holy Ghost, who is often called the “Paraclete” in non-Mormon circles.  But what is a paraclete?  The phrase in Greek ('allon parakleton) is translated in various ways, and it can be confusing:  Jesus himself says in John 14:16 "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter" (KJV); "Segond Consolateur" (German Luther Bible revised); "another Counselor" (RSV, NIV); "another Advocate" (JB, NRSV, SV); "another Helper" (TEV); "another to be your Advocate" (NEB, REB); "another Paraclete" (NAB, see note: "Jesus is the first Paraclete" in I John 2:1).  In other words, Jesus is the "first counselor," and the Holy Spirit is the "second counselor."

When does Jesus send the Second Comforter (Holy Spirit)?  After Jesus leaves, after his Forty-Day ministry as Resurrected Lord, he sends the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2).  That is and always has been the Second Comforter.

Not quite.

The Holy Ghost is the second comforter sent to the Apostles in his day, they already had Christ's presence with them.  As you point out, the Holy Ghost was referred to as another comforter during the 40 day ministry when the resurrected Lord already was present face to face.  They received the Baptism by the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, AFTER Christ had ascended.

In our day the Second Comforter is Christ as we receive his presence AFTER we receive the Holy Ghost.

Simple semantic issue of sequence.  How can the Baptism of the Holy Ghost come second and the Calling and Election by Christ first when we know that isn't the sequence of our progression?

Edited March 29, 2022 by JLHPROF

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not quite.

The Holy Ghost is the second comforter sent to the Apostles in his day, they already had Christ's presence with them.  As you point out, the Holy Ghost was referred to as another comforter during the 40 day ministry when the resurrected Lord already was present face to face.  They received the Baptism by the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, AFTER Christ had ascended.

In our day the Second Comforter is Christ as we receive his presence AFTER we receive the Holy Ghost.

Simple semantic issue of sequence.  How can the Baptism of the Holy Ghost come second and the Calling and Election by Christ first when we know that isn't the sequence of our progression?

Not "during" but after his 40-day ministry.  That's what Pentecost was all about.  We can suppose many things (and twice as many on Sunday), but that does not make them so.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not "during" but after his 40-day ministry.  That's what Pentecost was all about.  We can suppose many things (and twice as many on Sunday), but that does not make them so.

Bottom line is Christ can't be the first Comforter we receive and the Holy Ghost the second when we receive them in the opposite order.

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

When does Jesus send the Second Comforter (Holy Spirit)?  After Jesus leaves, after his Forty-Day ministry as Resurrected Lord, he sends the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2).  That is and always has been the Second Comforter.

FWIW, not much , since I am definitely NOT a scripture scholar as you are, this has always been my understanding as well.

To me, it just makes sense.   Jesus who took on himself the absolute worst experiences humans can have, and triumphed over them, and overcame the world HAS to be the "comforter", the one to whom goes when the world becomes overwhelming.

But in his absence, we have the Holy Ghost, the conduit who brings us to Him.

 

 

[Navidad]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

And yet 6 chapters later we have this:

 

Yes we do. It seems you are making a connection between the contexts, meaning, and significance of the two passages and events. Much happens between John 14 and 20 - Christ's suffering, death and resurrection. But the book of John does not describe either the transfiguration or ascension of Christ into heaven. So the comforter or Holy Spirit had not yet come in that (comforting) role. John 14 is written in a context of assurance that after Christ leaves them (post-ascension) He would not leave them without a comforter - the Holy Spirit. In that sense in John 20 he had not yet left them. He was still with them in his post-resurrection-pre-ascension self. In that time period he appeared them on several occasions, but in John 14 He was talking to them about when He would no longer be with them (post-ascension). FWIW

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

When does Jesus send the Second Comforter (Holy Spirit)?  After Jesus leaves, after his Forty-Day ministry as Resurrected Lord, he sends the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2).  That is and always has been the Second Comforter.

You should reach out to the church and correct them because they are under the impression that the second comforter is Christ.

 

 

 

“Some have thought that the phrase “another Comforter” in Doctrine and Covenants 88:3 refers to the Second Comforter, or a personal visit from the Savior.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-88-the-olive-leaf?lang=eng)

“Jesus Christ, Second Comforter” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/jesus-christ-second-comforter?lang=eng)

“The scriptures speak of two Comforters. The first is the Holy Ghost (John 14:26–27; Moro. 8:26; D&C 21:9; 42:17; 90:11). The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:18, 21, 23). When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3).” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/comforter?lang=eng)

 

“the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that while the Holy Ghost is referred to as the First Comforter, Jesus Christ is the Second Comforter.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/introduction-to-the-gospel-according-to-st-john/lesson-74-john-14?lang=eng)

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Fether

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

John 14 is written in a context of assurance that after Christ leaves them (post-ascension) He would not leave them without a comforter - the Holy Spirit. 

I think there are other possible interpretations:

Quote

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Do you see how verse 18 is a potential answer to verse 16?  The "Spirit of truth' could be interpreted several ways.  Who is the truth?   At this point the apostles, as you point out, have not yet received the Holly Ghost, so if the "Spirit of truth" is a reference to the Holy Ghost, why then does Jesus say in verse 17 in reference to "the Spirit of truth" that "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you..."   Note that it doesn't say that you will know him at some future date, and that he will dwell with you, but that you presently know him and that he presently dwells with you, and at some future point he 'shall be in you" in some sense (See D&C 88:66 - "my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound").   Who is it?  Who is this person that they know and dwell with and will be another comforter to them?  Verse 18 answers - "I will not leave you comfortless (nice choice of words): I will come to you."  Note the future tense - referring to the comfort he personally will give them after he leaves them. 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by pogi

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I think there are other possible interpretations:

Do you see how verse 18 is a potential answer to verse 16?  The "Spirit of truth' could be interpreted several ways.  Who is the truth?   At this point the apostles, as you point out, have not yet received the Holly Ghost, so if the "Spirit of truth" is a reference to the Holy Ghost, why then does Jesus say in verse 17 in reference to "the Spirit of truth" that "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you..."   Note that it doesn't say that you will know him at some future date, and that he will dwell with you, but that you presently know him and that he presently dwells with you.   Who is it?  Who is this person that they know and dwell with and will be another comforter to them?  Verse 18 answers - "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."  

 

Sure, there are other possible interpretations. That is true of all of scripture, including the specific LDS scriptures. I was just sharing my perspective as others have done. I am of the belief (not are all) that the Holy Spirit was active here on earth long before Pentecost. It appears a special kind of power appeared at that time as Christ admonished the disciples to remain in Jerusalem after the ascension to receive a "power" they had not known before. I don't believe it was the first time that the Spirit provided special gifts and power to humans. We see that in the Old Testament. I believe the Holy Spirit was active in creation and has been ever since. Are there other views and beliefs? Sure. I am simply sharing mine as others here do. There is, in my thinking a difference between the spirit coming upon or dwelling in or with someone (as in the OT), and the specific special event at Pentecost. I have never experienced anything such as was experienced at Pentecost. But that has no bearing on whether or not the Holy Spirit dwells with or within me, leading, guiding, and comforting. I think that is His normative role in and with the Church. What I have seen in my LDS friends over the four+ years I have attended the ward is that same normative presence of the Holy Spirit that I have. That is why we are assured that not everyone has the same gifts. I don't feel less than because I have never spoken in tongues. Some folks do. I believe I have the royal (Melchizedek) priesthood Peter mentioned in his writings. That gives me no special authority or power except that I need no earthly priest to intervene on my behalf with the Father. Christ settled that on the cross. I pray directly to my Father who is in heaven. I also belief I have the specific gifts of the Spirit that the Spirit intended for Navidad to have. . . no more no less.

We each have different beliefs about many things. Where we differ is not most importantly in the actual beliefs we hold, but in the certainty with which we hold them. I often have sought out other interpretations of specific scriptures. My sense is that many of my Christian friends, both in the LDS church and in other non-LDS churches do not particularly value exploring different ideas about our others' beliefs. I do; that is why I am on this forum and why I attend an LDS ward. Probably every Sunday I learn something I didn't know before about LDS beliefs. To this point I have seen nothing that makes me want to migrate to the LDS church as a member. But I have had my outlook broadened. I like that. Take care.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

You should reach out to the church and correct them because they are under the impression that the second comforter is Christ.

 

 

 

“Some have thought that the phrase “another Comforter” in Doctrine and Covenants 88:3 refers to the Second Comforter, or a personal visit from the Savior.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-88-the-olive-leaf?lang=eng)

“Jesus Christ, Second Comforter” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/jesus-christ-second-comforter?lang=eng)

“The scriptures speak of two Comforters. The first is the Holy Ghost (John 14:26–27; Moro. 8:26; D&C 21:9; 42:17; 90:11). The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:18, 21, 23). When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3).” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/comforter?lang=eng)

 

“the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that while the Holy Ghost is referred to as the First Comforter, Jesus Christ is the Second Comforter.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/introduction-to-the-gospel-according-to-st-john/lesson-74-john-14?lang=eng)

 

Are you certain of all of this? Are you open to considering other interpretations, or are you satisfied that you have thee Truth? No other interpretations need apply! That's a sincere question. I am trying to better understand the certainty with which the faithful LDS member holds important beliefs. Or perhaps is the belief about who is the second Comforter an appendage to use a Joseph Smith word or phrase, and therefore not pivotal or salvific? If you can find a quote from an official church source does that determine your position?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Navidad

[HappyJackWagon]

On 3/28/2022 at 7:13 AM, Fether said:

I've been somewhat interested in the idea of seeing Christ in vision and curious as to why we don't read or hear much about it any more. Before I get to my questions, I want to preface them with references and quotes.

John 14:21 - He that hath my commandments, and akeepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be bloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will cmanifest myself to him.

D+C 76:116-117 - 116 Neither is man acapable to make them known, for they are only to be bseen and cunderstood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who dlove him, and purify themselves before him;  117 To whom he grants this privilege of aseeing and knowing for themselves;

D+C 84:221-22 - 23 And without the ordinances thereof, and the aauthority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is bnot manifest unto men in the flesh; 22 For without this no aman can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. Now this aMoses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to bsanctify his people that they might cbehold the face of God;

D+C 88:68 - Therefore, asanctify yourselves that your bminds become csingle to God, and the days will come that you shall dsee him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

D+C 93:1 - Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who aforsaketh his bsins and cometh unto me, and ccalleth on my name, and dobeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall esee my fface and gknow that I am;

"D+C 97:15-16 - 15 And if my people build it not according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, I will not accept it at their hands. 16 But if my people do build it according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, even my servant Joseph and his counselors, then I will accept it at the hands of my people."

D+C 130:3 - The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal bappearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son cdwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

 

“‘Now what is the other comforter?’ Joseph asked. ‘It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. …’”(HC 3:381.)

"<it> is necessary that you receive a testimony from Heaven for yourselves, so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon. And that you have seen the face of God:40 that is more than the testimony of an Angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God. This testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out. although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will, therefore, see the necessity of getting this testimony from Heaven. Never cease striving until you have seen God, face to face. Strengthen your faith, cast off your doubts, your sins and all your unbelief and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid his hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us. God is the same. If the Saviour in former days laid his hands on his deciples. Why not in the latter Days." - Oliver Cowdery Blessings and minutes (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/minutes-and-blessings-21-february-1835/7)

 

 

QUESTIONS:
- Can we expect to see God in mortality if we are living righteously and seeking to see him?

- If not, how do we account for these scriptures above that suggest that we can?

-If so, why do we hear so little of people seeing Christ?

- Why do the vasy majority of apostles and prophets since Joseph Smith lack a visual witness of Christ (I know Pres Brigham Young, Grant, McKay, Elder Oaks and Callister have all said at some point that neither they, nor anyone they know has seen Christ)

- Are Oliver Cowdery's words true? Or was it just him making a bold inference?

- Why was the spoken of more in Joseph Smith’s time and in scripture than in modern day?

- Should a personal experience of the second comforter be sought after by the saints?

- If so, why is it not a bigger conversation? In my studies, I found it interesting that there seemed to be a huge lack of easy to reach resources on "seeing Christ" or "The Second Comforter".

I've shared this before but I once was interviewed for a calling by Pres. Nelson when he was in the Q12. I specifically asked why we don't hear of these types of miraculous events any more. If the Q15 are Special Witnesses then its hard to imagine how much more special the witness would be if it was a miraculous event similar to Joseph's. We talked about the miraculous spiritual outpourings in Kirtland etc and I mentioned how powerful it would be to hear of similar events, or better yet, be a part of such events.

At the time, when I was at the height of my belief/leadership/focus with regard to the church, his response left me dissatisfied. The more I've thought about it the more problematic I found his response to some of these same questions. He essentially said (paraphrasing- isn't it great that we have such mature men who are so close to the spirit that they can understand the still small voice, so that this grand events aren't necessary?) Not only is that self-aggrandizing and lacking humility (look at us, we're more spiritual than the early saints, including the prophet Joseph Smith that we don't need those kinds of experiences) I simply don't believe it to be true. But it also tells me that either 1- I was swine he couldn't cast his pearls before or 2- he was lying or 3- the brethren don't have those kinds of experiences, don't expect them and don't even think they need them.

So the short answer to your question about why don't hear about those kinds of events is because they don't happen, because we don't need them. To me, that answer is completely inadequate.

[rongo]

24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've shared this before but I once was interviewed for a calling by Pres. Nelson when he was in the Q12. I specifically asked why we don't hear of these types of miraculous events any more. If the Q15 are Special Witnesses then its hard to imagine how much more special the witness would be if it was a miraculous event similar to Joseph's. We talked about the miraculous spiritual outpourings in Kirtland etc and I mentioned how powerful it would be to hear of similar events, or better yet, be a part of such events.

At the time, when I was at the height of my belief/leadership/focus with regard to the church, his response left me dissatisfied. The more I've thought about it the more problematic I found his response to some of these same questions. He essentially said (paraphrasing- isn't it great that we have such mature men who are so close to the spirit that they can understand the still small voice, so that this grand events aren't necessary?) Not only is that self-aggrandizing and lacking humility (look at us, we're more spiritual than the early saints, including the prophet Joseph Smith that we don't need those kinds of experiences) I simply don't believe it to be true. But it also tells me that either 1- I was swine he couldn't cast his pearls before or 2- he was lying or 3- the brethren don't have those kinds of experiences, don't expect them and don't even think they need them.

So the short answer to your question about why don't hear about those kinds of events is because they don't happen, because we don't need them. To me, that answer is completely inadequate.

I've shared this before, but this issue (whether or not the Brethren have seen God) is a major issue for some people. One CES letter man I was asked to meet with had this as his #1 single biggest issue --- even after acknowledging in many cases that I had satisfactorily explained many of his other questions and issues. I shared some quotes with him (e.g., Orson Pratt and Heber C. Kimball) where they have directly stated that they had not, and gave as my own belief that some have, and some haven't (and even that some "civilians," or rank-and-file members have seen Jesus as well), but that this is not a requirement for the apostleship. When he insisted that it must be, I asked him where it ever says that, and he acknowledged that nowhere is this given as a requirement. It's an assumption. 

But, it's not an assumption that's out of left field, either (cf. Oliver Cowdery's instructions to the Twelve when they were ordained). Also, admitting that it hardly ever happens or is unnecessary, as several anecdotes here from President/Elder Nelson have, runs counter to the full realization of the 2nd Anointing --- making it even more of a hollow and superficial thing than it is (apparently, no more than an "in crowd" ordinance among Mormon royalty that doesn't really mean anything) because it would mean that almost no one who actually receives the ordinance fulfills it and has the appearance of the Second Comforter. As my uncle explained to me, the ordinance is supposed to be only the beginning, and couples are supposed to strive to receive the Second Comforter to fulfill the ordinance. 

I have no problem when people frankly acknowledge that this hasn't happened to them, but the Brethren have caused a bit of a problem of their own making in some of their reactions/overreactions when asked about this in other settings (i.e., not while hiking or in a one-on-one interview). At other times, they have played the "through experiences too sacred to share, I know . . ." card, and then this feeds into the assumption that it is an absolute requirement. 

I'm not tempted to go down that path, but I understand those who strive for what seems to be increasingly lost in the modern church (a la "Passing of the Heavenly Gift").

[Navidad]

I would simply like to offer a thought. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit has two ministries in this day and age.

The first involves the rare and exceptional manifestations that are supernatural (over and above the normative work of the Spirit). It involves the rather unique experiences that we often relate with and to Pentecost or to an event like the dedication of the Kirtland temple. These experiences are extraordinarily rare. Few humans, in my understanding have experienced them. Testing the validity of such an experience is way over my pay grade, wisdom and ability. The data simply seems to indicate they are rare.

The second ministry of the Holy Spirit is in the enabling gifts He gives us such as meekness, love, the ability to forgive, being tenderhearted, etc. He gives some various gifts of His that reveal themselves in effective teaching, ministry, etc. My fear is that sometimes in our thirst for the first we underestimate the power, beauty, and importance of the second. As we grow and mature in our faith, the Spirit becomes more real and potent in our lives as we become more like Christ. That is the real ministry of the Holy Spirit - to lead us to such a Christ-likeness that others can see Christ in us. That then becomes our most powerful testimony. Each of His gifts reflects an attribute of Christ. As we are like the deer panting for the waterbrooks, let us pant for more of the Spirit in our day-to-day lives so that we can better reflect Christ to our neighbors, baseball teams, youth, family, and those who we would like to lead to Christ. Both of the ministries of the Holy Spirit are miraculous. Let us pray to be effective ministers of this miracle to those around us.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Navidad

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

You should reach out to the church and correct them because they are under the impression that the second comforter is Christ.

The "church" is the body of Christ, and it consists of a wide variety of kinds and types of people, few of whom understand Scripture.  The "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is a formal, organized corporation.  It is not a person (even though the Supreme Court defines corporations as persons for legal reasons), and does not have opinions.  It does have a CEO and a Board of Directors, as do many other churches.  It is the pathetic fallacy to attribute human opinions to a corporation.  Some people within a corporation may have correct opinions, and some others incorrect opinions.  This is entirely normal.  What is important to ask first is, What is the formal Canon of Scripture for a particular religious organization.  Then, What are the correct interpretations of that Scripture?

4 hours ago, Fether said:

“Some have thought that the phrase “another Comforter” in Doctrine and Covenants 88:3 refers to the Second Comforter, or a personal visit from the Savior.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-88-the-olive-leaf?lang=eng)

“Jesus Christ, Second Comforter” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/jesus-christ-second-comforter?lang=eng)

“The scriptures speak of two Comforters. The first is the Holy Ghost (John 14:26–27; Moro. 8:26; D&C 21:9; 42:17; 90:11). The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:18, 21, 23). When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3).” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/comforter?lang=eng)

“the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that while the Holy Ghost is referred to as the First Comforter, Jesus Christ is the Second Comforter.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/introduction-to-the-gospel-according-to-st-john/lesson-74-john-14?lang=eng)

Those who write study manuals for particular religious organizations do the best they can, and they are paid for it.  The manuals do not constitute religious Scripture.  Instead they are used to help understand Scripture.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

FWIW, not much , since I am definitely NOT a scripture scholar as you are, this has always been my understanding as well.

To me, it just makes sense.   Jesus who took on himself the absolute worst experiences humans can have, and triumphed over them, and overcame the world HAS to be the "comforter", the one to whom goes when the world becomes overwhelming.

But in his absence, we have the Holy Ghost, the conduit who brings us to Him.

Yes, and the apostles  must have been deeply grateful at His ascension that He would send a replacement to look after them.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Bottom line is Christ can't be the first Comforter we receive and the Holy Ghost the second when we receive them in the opposite order.

That is not the plain meaning of Scripture, but have it your own way -- many others do.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That is not the plain meaning of Scripture, but have it your own way -- many others do.

Including the prophet Joseph who actually received both.  I think I'm good.

Edited March 29, 2022 by JLHPROF

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:13 PM, Fether said:

- Can we expect to see God in mortality if we are living righteously and seeking to see him?

Yes, absolutely.

Quote

-If so, why do we hear so little of people seeing Christ?

The goal is not to hear (or even read) other people's experiences; it is to have our own. I remain convinced that dissatisfaction with the perceived lack of revelation in others (including Church leaders) is almost always a projection of dissatisfaction with the actual lack of revelation in one's own life.

Quote

- Should a personal experience of the second comforter be sought after by the saints?

I suspect that the worst possible way to approach personal communion with the Lord is to seek after such an experience as an end in itself. God is not a showman out to impress us. A lifetime of genuine discipleship, characterised by sacrifice and service, is a far more likely path, providing the necessary refinement accompanied by incremental tutoring in both the processes and purposes of revelation. Then, like the brother of Jared, we simply cannot be kept from within the veil.

One cannot study or will himself into such a place.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan