Question of the day!

[Fether]

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

 

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

I don't. I think everybody who accepted the plan of salvation (i.e., who came to earth) accepted it --- and expected to realize the full blessings of it. I don't think there were any people who were shooting for 2nd or 3rd place from the very start, in the pre-existence. 

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't. I think everybody who accepted the plan of salvation (i.e., who came to earth) accepted it --- and expected to realize the full blessings of it. I don't think there were any people who were shooting for 2nd or 3rd place from the very start, in the pre-existence. 

So you think everyone was either shooting for exaltation or complete rebellion? No other options?

[James 1 5]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

 

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

I think we all understood the plan well enough to know that if we didn't receive the best possible outcome by the deadline on our day of God's judgment, then either 2nd and 3rd prize would still be very, very good and we might still be able to progress to even higher degrees of glory after that day of judgment.  Which may help to explain why most people don't worry about where they will end up, since even 3rd prize would be very, very good.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

 

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

Quite possibly, but there is no reason they couldn’t have changed if they caught the passion or finally comprehended the glory of God’s work.  Just because someone starts out as almost a loser doesn’t mean they have to end up that way.  Same with the valiant…the reverse is likely true as well given how Lucifer is said to have been pretty great before his arrogance and selfcenteredness got the better of him.

[rongo]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

So you think everyone was either shooting for exaltation or complete rebellion? No other options?

I think everyone thought they were shooting for exaltation. Like how many people on earth in the Church think they are, even though their actions actually run counter to that. Personality and agency were part of our identity there, too, and there were varying degrees of ability and traits.

Your thought is an interesting one (that perhaps some were shooting low in the preexistence), but I don't personally find any evidence for it. 

[James 1 5]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think everyone thought they were shooting for exaltation. Like how many people on earth in the Church think they are, even though their actions actually run counter to that. Personality and agency were part of our identity there, too, and there were varying degrees of ability and traits.

Your thought is an interesting one (that perhaps some were shooting low in the preexistence), but I don't personally find any evidence for it. 

Just offering a thought experiment:  Think of it as a big race that everyone is invited to run or participate in.  Some could choose to walk and not run, or run only some of the course.  Everyone choosing to participate receiving some very nice prizes, with 1st prize having the best of all prizes, of course.  But even 3rd prize winners will be receiving some very, very nice prizes.  And none worse off than before they chose to participate, unless choosing to not participate or trying to get others off of the course.

Edited February 8, 2022 by James 1 5

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

If we're speaking as if the LDS church is true:

Me. I'm not really interested in the idea of LDS exaltation (at least as I understand it). I don't eternal want work -- I want rest and peace. 

 

[James 1 5]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If we're speaking as if the LDS church is true:

Me. I'm not really interested in the idea of LDS exaltation (at least as I understand it). I don't eternal want work -- I want rest and peace. 

 

I think we have the mindset that if we're doing whatever we want to do, then it isn't what we would call work, or at least not something we do mainly because we want to be paid with money for it.  We will have peace and rest, too, whenever we want to rest.

[MiserereNobis]

22 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

I think we have the mindset that if we're doing whatever we want to do, then it isn't what we would call work, or at least not something we do mainly because we want to be paid with money for it.  We will have peace and rest, too, whenever we want to rest.

Do you believe that you'll be paid for the work you do in the celestial kingdom?

I sincerely ask, because I remember you believe that you'll be doing laundry and washing dishes there, too.

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

I don't. I think everybody who accepted the plan of salvation (i.e., who came to earth) accepted it --- and expected to realize the full blessings of it. I don't think there were any people who were shooting for 2nd or 3rd place from the very start, in the pre-existence. 

I respectfully disagree.

The levels of motivation and desire for a particular outcome are varied. I absolutely believe that some people heard God's plan and though Telestial and Terrestial sounded pretty awesome and knew they would be happier with that than outer darkness. In that way, I think some will receive the "lesser" degrees but still be in heaven.

[James 1 5]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you believe that you'll be paid for the work you do in the celestial kingdom?

I sincerely ask, because I remember you believe that you'll be doing laundry and washing dishes there, too.

Paid with money, no.  Doing laundry and washing dishes?  I hope not.  I suppose we will still wear clothes and there will still be some dirt that will cling to clothes, though, so SOMEBODY will need to clean clothes otherwise the dirt will stay on them.

What dishes do you suppose we will be using in heaven?  I like eating fruit from trees and that is what Adam and Eve did, and they likely continue to do it.

[let’s roll]

15 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

I think we have the mindset that if we're doing whatever we want to do, then it isn't what we would call work, or at least not something we do mainly because we want to be paid with money for it.  We will have peace and rest, too, whenever we want to rest.

God calls it work (“my work and glory”), work that causes Him to weep and understandably so.  He is the Father of every murderer and every murder victim, of every child molester and every child that is molested as well as the Father of every child who starves to death and every person who decides to take their own life.  All while having the power to alter those results, but staying His hand, in order not to corrupt His Plan which honors agency and its consequences.

Few of us have any of those experiences while parenting in mortality, and if we do, it’s certainly not because we seek out such experiences.  And if we were having such an experience, if we knew we had the power to alter the result, could we stay our hand?

Those are experiences and decisions that await us if we opt for exaltation—i.e., joining God in his work.  In our premortal life it’s unlikely we understood completely the scope of God’s work as it pertains to parenting mortal children, but knowing what we are able to know now, how many of us who understand the scope of God’s work are willing to undertake that component of exaltation.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

knowing what we are able to know now, how many of us who understand the scope of God’s work are willing to undertake that component of exaltation.

I think we may inflate this part of God’s experience though given most of our existence is not such suffering, so I would think most of his experience of us is also the more glorious part of eternity.  I imagine that is what makes the horrors of his parenting part endurable, but I suspect I am projecting the experience of time on to his experiences.  If one sees the glory of the end in the midst of the ugliness…dimming or balance are not the right words, but something perhaps similar to that happens.

[The Nehor]

If what I suspect is true then Telestial glory is a salvation and vast improvement for the spirits that accepted this desperate plan.

[let’s roll]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I think we may inflate this part of God’s experience though given most of our existence is not such suffering, so I would think most of his experience of us is also the more glorious part of eternity.  I imagine that is what makes the horrors of his parenting part endurable, but I suspect I am projecting the experience of time on to his experiences.  If one sees the glory of the end in the midst of the ugliness…dimming or balance are not the right words, but something perhaps similar to that happens.

Hi Calm, thanks for your thoughtful response.  Often a large part of the pain mortal parents feel regarding their children is shame, anxiety about what other people think of them as parents or wondering if they did something wrong or should have done something different in raising their children.

None of those things are part of God’s sorrow and pain, but as a perfect parent who both loves His children perfectly and has a perfect understanding of the joy and rest His children are forsaking, His sorrow and pain are beyond what we can experience as mortal parents.  

On the flip side, as you pointed out, that same perfect love and understanding results in a joy for His children who choose to be exalted and join Him in His work that we also can’t experience as mortal parents and the depth and breadth of which surpasses our current ability to comprehend.

[CV75]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:48 AM, Fether said:

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

 

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

Alma 13:3 refers to the the role of the foreknowledge of God (see Acts 17:26-28) in this. He knew when and where He would send each of His children to earth, and when and where we would be able to be ordained, in this life or in the spirit world. So I think all His children are equally eligible for all the blessings of exaltation (see the role of grace in Alma 13:9), and our desires were such in the premortal life. Alma 13:4-9 has to do with decisions made in mortality, not the pre-existence.

Now I say this as someone who has left the Church. just a couple of days ago in fact, after the second hour block. I look  foward to returning next week.

[Fether]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Alma 13:3 refers to the the role of the foreknowledge of God (see Acts 17:26-28) in this. He knew when and where He would send each of His children to earth, and when and where we would be able to be ordained, in this life or in the spirit world. So I think all His children are equally eligible for all the blessings of exaltation (see the role of grace in Alma 13:9), and our desires were such in the premortal life. Alma 13:4-9 has to do with decisions made in mortality, not the pre-existence.

Now I say this as someone who has left the Church. just a couple of days ago in fact, after the second hour block. I look  foward to returning next week.

I’ve been taught my whole life that Alma 13 refers to premortal life. That being said, I get that that may be wrong.

regardless, Abraham talks about valiant ones in pre earth life as well

[James 1 5]

51 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Alma 13:3 refers to the the role of the foreknowledge of God (see Acts 17:26-28) in this. He knew when and where He would send each of His children to earth, and when and where we would be able to be ordained, in this life or in the spirit world. So I think all His children are equally eligible for all the blessings of exaltation (see the role of grace in Alma 13:9), and our desires were such in the premortal life. Alma 13:4-9 has to do with decisions made in mortality, not the pre-existence.

Now I say this as someone who has left the Church. just a couple of days ago in fact, after the second hour block. I look  foward to returning next week.

This is one of those things that just blows my mind up.  Way way past being a master chess player.  Nothing I can think of can compare.  To know each of us so well to know what kind of an effect we would have when we came here, wherever we would be born, and with many of us being able to move around on this planet to God knew where.  I was in Texas when I first got here.  Now I am living in Oregon, having lived in many other states in the USA.  And God knew right where and when to introduce his Church to me and, well, he knew everything that would eventually lead me to being ordained to his priesthood.  I can't even begin to fathom the logistics involved in just my life and all who I have affected.  I think we need to come up with a much better word than God.  Three letters?  Why 3?  Genius has 6 letters in it.  Such a puny little word for him and I have no idea where it came from.

Edited February 9, 2022 by James 1 5

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/8/2022 at 9:48 AM, Fether said:

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

The Book of Abraham likewise claims that there were noble and great ones in premortal time who were chosen for important roles.  That would obviously include Jesus Himself, in addition to Abraham, and other select individuals.  The problem arises when we address those noble and great ones who failed:  Namely Lucifer and Judas.  There is never a guarantee of success.  The test will take place, and not everyone will pass.  A third of the host of heaven failed the first test.  What does that tell us?

Alma 13:5 makes it clear that "in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren," that is they were all equal at the outset, despite superior ability and goodness of some, because all were good.  There is no statement that some were more or less "valiant" than others.

  The common slur directed at Africans was the lie that they were less valiant in the premortal life -- an attempt to justify slavery and discrimination, which Joseph Smith himself utterly rejected.

Those born with greater ability and privilege are not blessed by God with an easy path -- indeed, more is expected of them.  They are handicapped:  Where much is given, much is expected.

On 2/8/2022 at 9:48 AM, Fether said:

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

I cannot suss out the hidden agendas of premortal spirits, although I suspect that the morning stars who shouted together (Job 38:7) were all fully committed.  One third were obviously not.  The category of infants and children who die before accountability may fit into a special niche who do not need to be tested.

The only real test is in this life, in which those "who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" may be disappointed (D&C 76:79).

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

I’ve been taught my whole life that Alma 13 refers to premortal life. That being said, I get that that may be wrong.

regardless, Abraham talks about valiant ones in pre earth life as well

It starts with the premortal life, but then proceeds into this life. It kind of goes back-and-forth and simultaneously in some of the phrasing (at least that is how I read it), which is typical for explaining spiritual things with an eternal perspective.

Yes, from the Book of Abraham there certainly were noble ones, and everyone has someone more and less intelligent than themselves, except Christ. The less-noble ones followed the devil. The less-intelligent noble ones, well, it doesn't matter, they are among those of whom Alma 13 refers .

I'd be interested in tracking he development of the phrasing, "valiant in the pre-existence" -- D&C 76:79 uses the term "valiant", but it refers to the quality as manifest in this life: "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." So I take it all teh noble ones, more intelligent and less intelligent, were valiant in the testimony of Jesus in teh pre-mortal life.

 

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, James 1 5 said:

This is one of those things that just blows my mind up.  Way way past being a master chess player.  Nothing I can think of can compare.  To know each of us so well to know what kind of an effect we would have when we came here, wherever we would be born, and with many of us being able to move around on this planet to God knew where.  I was in Texas when I first got here.  Now I am living in Oregon, having lived in many other states in the USA.  And God knew right where and when to introduce his Church to me and, well, he knew everything that would eventually lead me to being ordained to his priesthood.  I can't even begin to fathom the logistics involved in just my life and all who I have affected.  I think we need to come up with a much better word than God.  Three letters?  Why 3?  Genius has 6 letters in it.  Such a puny little word for him and I have no idea where it came from.

There are longer name/titles or name/descriptors, and when we combine them all as our focus, we might approach the name that is written in our hearts. 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 2/8/2022 at 9:48 AM, Fether said:

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

 

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

I take seriously the scriptural declaration that the children of God “shouted for joy.”

[Rivers]

On 2/8/2022 at 9:48 AM, Fether said:

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

 

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

Sure.

[Tacenda]

Can this be my question of the day?

Is anyone giving a talk this Sunday on the lesson about Lot's wife?

I would love to witness a talk with this article included. 

"Tell Me Her Name".

https://www.the-exponent.com/tell-me-her-name/?fbclid=IwAR311IA2Vsy14yWLwUryjcOe3VbpSs3z1kXCESXORRMW2BnGAUpX0JwO-Fk

Edited February 16, 2022 by Tacenda