Question of the day!

[kimpearson]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:48 AM, Fether said:

I acknowledge this question may come off as a little doctrinally condescending to those who left the church. My intent here is not to offend or rationalize why people leave the church, but rather to understand the plan of salvation from the assumption that the gospel is true and all the church claims to be is true.

 

Alma 13 teaches that there were valiant spirits in pre earth life that were fore ordained to certain callings. This being because they chose faith and good works in the pre mortal  world.

This, to me at least, suggests there were Im valiant spirits that didn’t reject Gods plan, just may not have obeyed as much as others.

Do you think that there were categories of spirits that wanted nothing to do with exaltation, but went along with Gods plan with the goal to achieve terrestrial or telestial glory?

First off my understanding is that we just don't know.  My own reasoning goes like this.  Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost achieved the level of Godhood in the pre-existence.  Satan achieved the level of the devil and rejected everything.  I think you have everything in between the two.  The noble and great ones rose to a level in the pre-existance they could be completely trusted to do their work.  Possibly half of those born on the earth died before the age of eight so the scriptures tell us they are going to the Celestial kingdom.  Maybe they had reached a level in the pre-existence that they had fully accepted God's plan and wanted exaltation.  I believe that the third of host of heaven who rejected the plan knew for sure they didn't want exaltation or any part of the work involved. I think the rest of us including myself thought the plan was great but weren't quite sure what we wanted and so we came to this earth to be tested and decide what we wanted.  I believe many will decide they don't want exaltation but they do want to support it.   Section 76 says that everyone in the kingdoms of glory will be involved in God's work for the eternities. 

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Bumping this up, I can't start topics, does anyone care to read this blessed response to this week's CFM lesson on Lot and his wife that turned into a pillar of salt? I think someone should give this along with their talk this Sunday. Seriously! @bluebell@Calm @juliann and so many more women posters. Am I off my rocker for wanting this so much?

@Nemesis I'm sorry if I derailed this, I would love to put it where it wouldn't derail. Any suggestions? I just think it's such an important item.

I don't know what a church talk on how we know very very few (too few) women's names from the scriptures would even work?  What would we say?  This isn't fair?  It's not fair but it is what it is and there is no way to change it.  There are not many ways to humanize people who barely exist in the story, especially if they only exist as a warning. 

I like the ways the writer of that presented Lot's wife.  It could be completely wrong (there is no way to know) but it's nice to present her with good intentions.  It's hard to know if she ever actually existed, and I don't believe for a second that God would turn someone into a pillar of salt because she turned around to see if her daughters were coming but it does humanize her to think of it that way.

Dan Peterson is the guest speaker for the Follow Him podcast that Hank Smith and John Bytheway are doing this week and he talks about how this area of the desert has many such pillars of salt and some of them are big enough to look like people.  

Here is what Dan says about it, and some of John's commentary too:

Dr. Daniel Peterson: 42:07--They're told not to look back. And there again, this story about Lot's wife is an odd one. But the idea of not looking back, we can take that as a metaphor very, very clearly and easily. Leave Babylon and don't look back. Leave Sodom and don't look back. Don't keep thinking, "Man, it would've been nice." Oh gee, I miss..." X, Y, and Z. No, just make a clean break. She looks back and is turned into a pillar of salt. Whatever that act means, I don't know. There are sort of salt pillars around that part of the dead sea, because it's a really salty lake and it's gone through various periods of expansion and contraction. It's in a deep contraction right now. And it's left pillars of dirty salt all around the area, and it stinks really badly. But I can imagine that that's what they're thinking of when they think of this passage.

John Bytheway: 43:03--We had a bus driver pull over and point and say, "There's Lot's wife right there." So, I think there's maybe a spot where there's a particular pillar they like to...

Dr. Daniel Peterson: 43:13--Yeah. Well, some of them are about the height of human beings. I mean, they almost look like people. You can see people in them.

John Bytheway: 43:22--It does sound like kind of a harsh punishment to become a geographic formation all of a sudden for just looking. I was so excited to ask Dr. Peterson this, because isn't there a hint in the Quran that she didn't just want to go back, but she actually went back?

Dr. Daniel Peterson: 43:39--Yeah, there is, yeah, that she went back and she's punished for that. Yeah, that's a Muslim tradition that it wasn't... It's not just a glance. We think that's too harsh. But if it's, "My heart's really there. I liked that place. I had a nice house. I had lots of good Genesis 18-23  stuff and I'd rather be there." Like Laman and Lemuel always saying, "Gee, wish we could be back in Jerusalem." They never really left in their hearts and look what happened to them.

(This is a transcript of the podcast so that's why there are time stamps included)

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by bluebell

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know what a church talk on how we know very very few (too few) women's names from the scriptures would even work?  What would we say?  This isn't fair?  It's not fair but it is what it is and there is no way to change it.  There are not many ways to humanize people who barely exist in the story, especially if they only exist as a warning. 

I like the ways the writer of that presented Lot's wife.  It could be completely wrong (there is no way to know) but it's nice to present her with good intentions.  It's hard to know if she ever actually existed, and I don't believe for a second that God would turn someone into a pillar of salt because she turned around to see if her daughters were coming but it does humanize her to think of it that way.

Dan Peterson is the guest speaker for the Follow Him podcast that Hank Smith and John Bytheway are doing this week and he talks about how this area of the desert has many such pillars of salt and some of them are big enough to look like people.  

Here is what Dan says about it, and some of John's commentary too:

Dr. Daniel Peterson: 42:07--They're told not to look back. And there again, this story about Lot's wife is an odd one. But the idea of not looking back, we can take that as a metaphor very, very clearly and easily. Leave Babylon and don't look back. Leave Sodom and don't look back. Don't keep thinking, "Man, it would've been nice." Oh gee, I miss..." X, Y, and Z. No, just make a clean break. She looks back and is turned into a pillar of salt. Whatever that act means, I don't know. There are sort of salt pillars around that part of the dead sea, because it's a really salty lake and it's gone through various periods of expansion and contraction. It's in a deep contraction right now. And it's left pillars of dirty salt all around the area, and it stinks really badly. But I can imagine that that's what they're thinking of when they think of this passage.

John Bytheway: 43:03--We had a bus driver pull over and point and say, "There's Lot's wife right there." So, I think there's maybe a spot where there's a particular pillar they like to...

Dr. Daniel Peterson: 43:13--Yeah. Well, some of them are about the height of human beings. I mean, they almost look like people. You can see people in them.

John Bytheway: 43:22--It does sound like kind of a harsh punishment to become a geographic formation all of a sudden for just looking. I was so excited to ask Dr. Peterson this, because isn't there a hint in the Quran that she didn't just want to go back, but she actually went back?

Dr. Daniel Peterson: 43:39--Yeah, there is, yeah, that she went back and she's punished for that. Yeah, that's a Muslim tradition that it wasn't... It's not just a glance. We think that's too harsh. But if it's, "My heart's really there. I liked that place. I had a nice house. I had lots of good Genesis 18-23  stuff and I'd rather be there." Like Laman and Lemuel always saying, "Gee, wish we could be back in Jerusalem." They never really left in their hearts and look what happened to them.

(This is a transcript of the podcast so that's why there are time stamps included)

 

Thanks bluebell, I like their commentary!